Petrol Head?

[Upside Down]

Hybrid the way to go.

The range of fully electric is insufficient for someone like me.

When we do road trips we'll easily smash a thousand Kms. I don't have the time to stop for three hours every 250 just to charge it up.

[Armchair supporter supremo]

On 28/02/2024 at 21:02, Upside Down said:

Hybrid the way to go.

The range of fully electric is insufficient for someone like me.

When we do road trips we'll easily smash a thousand Kms. I don't have the time to stop for three hours every 250 just to charge it up.

Why did hybrids seem to go off the boil? Id have thought they'd be the best compromise 

Seems like every used prius on the market goes straight to taxi firms

Edited March 1 by Armchair supporter supremo

[bluebruce]

On 20/02/2022 at 16:27, Armchair supporter supremo said:

There's also the Elephant in the room of where are they going to keep finding all the raw materials from that make up the batteries on these vehicles thay they hope will one day soon be replacing the the hundreds of millions of petrol & diesel vehicles currently on the rd AND what about environmental and ethical issues that come with mining these raw materials 

It's not that much of an elephant in the room, although it may have been more of one when you posted this 2 years ago.

The price of lithium has recently been shooting down, as more reserves are found, and the processes and infrastructure improve. But most crucially, these batteries can be recycled pretty much entirely and these methods will improve too. In fact even a dead battery can fetch a nice chunk of change for this use. Once there are enough in circulation, you won't need to extract much lithium anymore, as you'll have almost a closed loop system.

There is more than enough lithium in the world to provide for this loop. You'll find different figures of course as it depends how they're measured etc, but a quick google suggests there are between 14-22 million tons of known lithium that can be mined with current methods, and '(depending on who you ask) the amount of lithium needed to meet current goals is somewhere between 0.5 and 1.3 million tons'.

There are environmental issues with the mining, yes, but there are environmental issues with mining the materials for combustion engines too, and far greater environmental issues with mining fossil fuels. From memory (I could have the number wrong) you will make up the production emissions of an EV in the first 10,000 miles or so typically, as you're not using fossil fuels. Of course this depends partially on the source of the electricity you're using, but we're getting increasingly green with our grid energy and you can use providers like Octopus who source their electricity renewably (granted I imagine you probably just receive the same electricity anyway, but Ocotupus will buy more green energy as a result and it will balance out in some complex offsetting that encourages more renewables to be built). Even if you use entirely fossil fuel sourced electricity, you'll still end up producing less emissions than you would have with fossil fuels, recouping the production difference in about 30k or 40k miles I think it was (a little while since I read it, sorry).

There are also nascent battery technologies developing. Sodium ion batteries are already in some Chinese production EVs. These are much cheaper as they don't use lithium but basically use salt. They're less efficient as they're heavier, but they're very well suited for city driving (ie people who don't really do long trips anyway but primarily commute relatively short distances in cities). Their price will also attract people, and techs like this and other non-lithium batteries will reduce the strain on lithium demands, keeping prices and resource extraction down.

Other technological improvements can have this effect on reducing lithium demands and other rare earth metals. More efficient motors that are constantly developing, along with all the other tech and efficiency improvements in these cars. Semi solid state and solid state batteries are a big one too. Nobody has quite mastered the latter yet in terms of making it production-ready, but semi solid state batteries are coming now. They are safer (already an overstated issue in the better batteries) and much more efficient. This means a semi solid state lithium battery can be a lot lighter. So you can either keep the same weight of battery and get much more range out of it, or as some will do, make the battery far lighter and get the same range, meaning less lithium used.

Apologies, sort of, looking into all these technologies has become a bit of an obsession for me in the last few months. Not sure why, I certainly can't afford an EV yet!

[bluebruce]

On 01/03/2024 at 10:51, Armchair supporter supremo said:

Why did hybrids seem to go off the boil? Id have thought they'd be the best compromise 

Seems like every used prius on the market goes straight to taxi firms

I would guess it's because they're less efficient. They certainly have their advantages, but like you say they're a bit of a compromise. So it's kind of like, best of both worlds, worst of both worlds.

Thing is, if you're filling up your petrol tank, the EV then has to lug that extra weight around, so they're often less efficient than an EV with a similar size battery. If you almost always do short trips before you recharge, it's a bit of a waste. If you do a lot of long range driving, your fossil fuels are lugging that extra battery weight around, as it weighs almost the same when fully discharged. Also, fully discharging your battery isn't great for longevity in most battery chemistries (though not as lethal for them as some make out).

I think that compromise made more sense when the EV industry and infrastructure was developing, and range anxiety was more of a thing. Now, chargers and superchargers are far more common, satnavs have them well mapped, and the best EVs can almost get you from Edinburgh to London on a full starting charge (actually the best ranged, one of the Lucid Air models, could get you that distance with about 100 miles to spare, but it's not available in the UK yet). In the UK, unless you drive freakishly long journeys regularly, range anxiety is very unlikely to amount to anything real with much regularity.

I think hybrids are still a good introduction for people trying to dip their toe in the EV market though. They're cheaper and let you experiment with electric without being completely reliant on it if you're still worried about them. But honestly, I don't think you'll really see new ones made anymore within 10 years, probably less. At least for over here.

Edited April 18 by bluebruce

[bluebruce]

On 28/02/2024 at 21:02, Upside Down said:

Hybrid the way to go.

The range of fully electric is insufficient for someone like me.

When we do road trips we'll easily smash a thousand Kms. I don't have the time to stop for three hours every 250 just to charge it up.

Wow those are long journeys! Am I right in remembering you live in Australia? Full EVs definitely won't meet the case needs of everyone just yet. Although you won't need three hours to recharge a good, modern EV. A Model S for example can charge up to 200 miles in 15 minutes at a supercharger, which you could easily fill with a piss and grabbing a bite to eat. And you could have up to 394 miles to begin with on a full starting charge. It still does mean more recharging time than you'd spend with a petrol or diesel car, but nowhere near the times you're thinking.

Of course, the issues then come in two forms: affordability for normal people, who mostly can't come close to affording a brand new Tesla (some very good options on the used market though, with more battery life left than you'd think, but still generally far in excess of many can afford for now - that said, I saw a video where a guy got about 260 miles out of a Tesla he bought for less than £9k, haggled down from £13k, and it had done 450k miles in its life!). And the supercharger network. I've no idea what that's like in somewhere like Australia, with colossal distances between cities, but I bet it's not always great. A normal charger might take you hours, and I agree that's just not practical. The supercharger networks are only going to improve though, and hopefully within a few years you'll be in a position to change your mind.

Personally, with everything I've seen about the technological advancements, I'm predicting there'll be commercially available EVs with 1,000 miles of range by the end of 2030. It'll be interesting to come back to this comment in 6 years to see if I was right! Honestly I think it could be as early as 2028.

[bluebruce]

On 28/02/2024 at 17:40, Mr Cool said:

So my family bus, the Toyota Proace Verso 2.0 Diesel, is due to go back in July (I PCP and swap every four years), and I've been weighing up my options.

The GFV on the vehicle is £11,000. I did an online valuation and double-checked on Autotrader, and its value now is around £22,000. It's worth double what they thought it would be worth.

I've looked into getting another one as it's very practical, but they're only making them now with an electric motor. I'm not overly keen on getting an electric vehicle, but I looked into the specs.

The range on a Proace Verso EV is 135 miles, with a top speed of 80 mph, which probably explains why the price of the used diesel has increased! So, that's not an option for me as I need a longer range and like driving fast on the motorway. I reckon I'll settle the balance and keep my bus until it no longer functions!

Those are awful numbers, I wouldn't get the electric one either. Honestly, the minivans etc haven't developed to the numbers 'normal' EVs can do yet, due to the weights they carry. That said, the Tesla semi trucks look to have impressive numbers pulling far greater weights. The ridiculous-looking cybertruck can shift too. Toyota haven't really committed to EVs properly yet tbh, despite some good hybrids.

There are definitely minivan EVs with much better range than that though, if you're not so partial to the brand you won't shift. In fact I just did a lil google for you and got this list: https://www.fleetalliance.co.uk/business-ev/the-10-electric-vans-with-the-best-range/

Which happens to mention a Toyota Proace Electric that has a 205 mile range (looking at their website, sounds like that drops to 177 miles if you're driving like a maniac in bad weather). Think you were looking at the 50kw battery rather than the 75kw battery. Looks like it has the same crappy top speed though.

Personally, I'd probably keep your existing vehicle for another 3 years or so and then re-evaluate what's on the market as I bet EV minivans will have improved markedly by then.

[bluebruce]

On 20/02/2022 at 16:51, Gav said:

I wonder how long it will take the government to start taxing electric vehicles, they're going to lose a fortune in duty over the next 20/30yrs, it won't long i'd wager.

Well predicted! Starts April 2025. Ridiculously, it seems even EVs that are only two years old will have to pay the standard rate (£190). Not the best way to encourage further EV adoption. Think they should have put it off a bit longer, or at least made it far cheaper. Weirdly though, 'Zero and low emission cars first registered between 1 March 2001 and 30 March 2017 currently in Band A will move to the Band B rate, currently £20 a year'. Bizarre for it to be considerably cheaper tax than a nearly new EV, I guess the thinking is that drivers of EVs that age will be poorer, but somehow the same courtesy isn't given to me for driving my old Peugeot from 2008!

[only2garners]

Blue Bruce liking my post from 2 years ago drew me back to this thread so I thought I would do an update.

We took delivery of a new MG5 on a two year lease last May and have done nearly 8,000 miles - we are both retired and now with one car only but we travel quite a bit and are in London a lot on the train.

The MG5 is at the cheaper end of the EV market but it has been perfectly good for us. We get 250-275 miles range, dropping to c220 in the winter, which is very good. With CCS charge capability longer trips are no problem at all now. Driving to London a couple of times we have just stopped once for 15-20 minutes to charge, which frankly is what we would have done anyway for a wee and a coffee. In fact most times we have come back to the car to find more charge than we planned to get.

We sold our 6 year old Renault Zoe for £6,800 in September. It had been an excellent choice and no doubt still is for the new owner. As a second car it was the one we always used as first choice going anywhere in a 50 mile range of home. Given it was an early model it only had a Type C charger and a fairly small range (140-200 miles) it was more awkward for longer journeys as the charging was slow. But we had it as a sole car for 9 months and it was fine.

I visit a number of travel websites and often travellers will ask about the practicality of hiring an electric car in the U.K. You inevitably get a string of people saying how it’s wholly impractical, there aren’t enough chargers, lots of them are broken etc etc. All posted by people who have never driven an EV and who refuse to accept any contrary advice from those who have.

The reality is that now driving an EV is perfectly fine, as long as you have somewhere regular to charge it near home. A charger at home is the obvious best plan but I realise not everyone can do that. But there are schemes for home chargers to be shared and street charging is getting more available too. We use Ecotricity for our home fuel and they now have an overnight rate of 7.5p per KWh so the fuel cost for nearly all our driving is ridiculously cheap. And the electricity is all renewable for us.

And also, discounting all the environmental and economic reasons EVs are just so much more enjoyable to drive.

[Norbert Rassragr]

If there was ever an environmentally friendly carbon neutral fuel developed, I'd love Formula One to go back to V10 engines.

[Armchair supporter supremo]

On 18/04/2024 at 18:06, bluebruce said:

It's not that much of an elephant in the room, although it may have been more of one when you posted this 2 years ago.

The price of lithium has recently been shooting down, as more reserves are found, and the processes and infrastructure improve. But most crucially, these batteries can be recycled pretty much entirely and these methods will improve too. In fact even a dead battery can fetch a nice chunk of change for this use. Once there are enough in circulation, you won't need to extract much lithium anymore, as you'll have almost a closed loop system.

There is more than enough lithium in the world to provide for this loop. You'll find different figures of course as it depends how they're measured etc, but a quick google suggests there are between 14-22 million tons of known lithium that can be mined with current methods, and '(depending on who you ask) the amount of lithium needed to meet current goals is somewhere between 0.5 and 1.3 million tons'.

There are environmental issues with the mining, yes, but there are environmental issues with mining the materials for combustion engines too, and far greater environmental issues with mining fossil fuels. From memory (I could have the number wrong) you will make up the production emissions of an EV in the first 10,000 miles or so typically, as you're not using fossil fuels. Of course this depends partially on the source of the electricity you're using, but we're getting increasingly green with our grid energy and you can use providers like Octopus who source their electricity renewably (granted I imagine you probably just receive the same electricity anyway, but Ocotupus will buy more green energy as a result and it will balance out in some complex offsetting that encourages more renewables to be built). Even if you use entirely fossil fuel sourced electricity, you'll still end up producing less emissions than you would have with fossil fuels, recouping the production difference in about 30k or 40k miles I think it was (a little while since I read it, sorry).

There are also nascent battery technologies developing. Sodium ion batteries are already in some Chinese production EVs. These are much cheaper as they don't use lithium but basically use salt. They're less efficient as they're heavier, but they're very well suited for city driving (ie people who don't really do long trips anyway but primarily commute relatively short distances in cities). Their price will also attract people, and techs like this and other non-lithium batteries will reduce the strain on lithium demands, keeping prices and resource extraction down.

Other technological improvements can have this effect on reducing lithium demands and other rare earth metals. More efficient motors that are constantly developing, along with all the other tech and efficiency improvements in these cars. Semi solid state and solid state batteries are a big one too. Nobody has quite mastered the latter yet in terms of making it production-ready, but semi solid state batteries are coming now. They are safer (already an overstated issue in the better batteries) and much more efficient. This means a semi solid state lithium battery can be a lot lighter. So you can either keep the same weight of battery and get much more range out of it, or as some will do, make the battery far lighter and get the same range, meaning less lithium used.

Apologies, sort of, looking into all these technologies has become a bit of an obsession for me in the last few months. Not sure why, I certainly can't afford an EV yet!

Not gonna lie I saw one of the latest Electric Ford Mustangs the other day🤤🤤 if I was rich and had money to burn I definitely would hahaha

But the current standard everyday EVs just do nothing for me and I wouldn’t touch Tesla with a barge pole (blandest most generic looking cars around to my eyes) 

For me at this current time though I still just see them as expensive gadgets mainly for those that just have to have the latest thing!

Edited April 19 by Armchair supporter supremo

[bluebruce]

8 hours ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

Not gonna lie I saw one of the latest Electric Ford Mustangs the other day🤤🤤 if I was rich and had money to burn I definitely would hahaha

But the current standard everyday EVs just do nothing for me and I wouldn’t touch Tesla with a barge pole (blandest most generic looking cars around to my eyes) 

For me at this current time though I still just see them as expensive gadgets mainly for those that just have to have the latest thing!

Depends what you look for in your car really. I agree, I'm not a fan of how Teslas look for the most part, although the Roadster is quite nice, and the Highland is a decent aesthetic improvement for the Model 3. When I drive behind Teslas, I hate how they look with that wide bottom and slimmer top section.

That said, I'm probably the opposite to you in that they're potentially the only EV I'd consider. I'm more interested in a car that lasts well, drives well, gets me from A to B best, etc. The looks are less important for me, though nice to have. They also get cheaper access to the super chargers, although that's less of a concern when you're minted. Tesla batteries seem to have the best track record for low degradation though, and for safety, and I get the impression most legacy car makers haven't mastered this yet, or at least not been on the road long enough to be sure.

If looks are more your thing, there are plenty of quite nice looking EVs. I thought the Xiaomi (yes the phone company) SU7 recently released in China is very slick, if a slightly derivative design, and with good specs. But apparently they keep crashing! I think the Lucid Air is a lovely, more mature car than the Teslas, with similar or even better specs, but again not out in the UK yet. I like how some of the BYD cars look. Reckon the new Renault 5 will be popular with those who like small hatchbacks.

Like you say, money is a huge concern unless you're rich enough that it isn't, but there are some great deals to be had on the used market. In time, it will all improve - looks, affordability, the used market etc. Reckon I'm a good 3-5 years from being able to replace my banger with one!

 

[Armchair supporter supremo]

3 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Depends what you look for in your car really. I agree, I'm not a fan of how Teslas look for the most part, although the Roadster is quite nice, and the Highland is a decent aesthetic improvement for the Model 3. When I drive behind Teslas, I hate how they look with that wide bottom and slimmer top section.

That said, I'm probably the opposite to you in that they're potentially the only EV I'd consider. I'm more interested in a car that lasts well, drives well, gets me from A to B best, etc. The looks are less important for me, though nice to have. They also get cheaper access to the super chargers, although that's less of a concern when you're minted. Tesla batteries seem to have the best track record for low degradation though, and for safety, and I get the impression most legacy car makers haven't mastered this yet, or at least not been on the road long enough to be sure.

If looks are more your thing, there are plenty of quite nice looking EVs. I thought the Xiaomi (yes the phone company) SU7 recently released in China is very slick, if a slightly derivative design, and with good specs. But apparently they keep crashing! I think the Lucid Air is a lovely, more mature car than the Teslas, with similar or even better specs, but again not out in the UK yet. I like how some of the BYD cars look. Reckon the new Renault 5 will be popular with those who like small hatchbacks.

Like you say, money is a huge concern unless you're rich enough that it isn't, but there are some great deals to be had on the used market. In time, it will all improve - looks, affordability, the used market etc. Reckon I'm a good 3-5 years from being able to replace my banger with one!

 

Normally looks aren't my concern at all when looking for a new (or very used! In my case 😂)  practicality and reliability are my priorities everytime(which again is why I wouldn't even consider an ev right now) I just meant that if I did have money to burn and could afford something more luxurious then a mustang would be my option, although if I was wealthy my main car would be a big diesel Ford Ranger (sorry 🤷‍♂️😅 if got a lot of dogs and do a lot of odd jobs) the electric mustang would just be for when i fancy cruising about in something nice. 

 

P. S Yes I do like a ford, even if they aren't what they used to be 😞

Edited April 20 by Armchair supporter supremo

[Gav]

16 hours ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

Not gonna lie I saw one of the latest Electric Ford Mustangs the other day🤤🤤 if I was rich and had money to burn I definitely would hahaha

But the current standard everyday EVs just do nothing for me and I wouldn’t touch Tesla with a barge pole (blandest most generic looking cars around to my eyes) 

For me at this current time though I still just see them as expensive gadgets mainly for those that just have to have the latest thing!

I never bought a Tesla for the looks, but I think you're being harsh Armchair. 

Blistering pace, plenty of gadgets, loads of cabin and boot space + around 280 miles between charges, whats not to like!

Its all a matter of opinions of course.

[Mr Cool]

1 hour ago, Gav said:

whats not to like!

£60k!

[ABBEY]

Hope all you electric brainwashed are only using solar power to charge otherwise your all  bullshitting gretas 

 

[bluebruce]

5 hours ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

Normally looks aren't my concern at all when looking for a new (or very used! In my case 😂)  practicality and reliability are my priorities everytime(which again is why I wouldn't even consider an ev right now) I just meant that if I did have money to burn and could afford something more luxurious then a mustang would be my option, although if I was wealthy my main car would be a big diesel Ford Ranger (sorry 🤷‍♂️😅 if got a lot of dogs and do a lot of odd jobs) the electric mustang would just be for when i fancy cruising about in something nice. 

 

P. S Yes I do like a ford, even if they aren't what they used to be 😞

I like a Ford too. When I learnt to drive about 7 years ago, I really wanted to get a Ford Fiesta for my first car. It would have had to be on finance so I very sensibly bought my mum's old Peugeot instead.

I think you've got it wrong about practicality and reliability for EVs though, at least with Teslas. I can't speak to other brands as much, as many use different battery chemistry but moreover I haven't seen as many reviews from former owners as I have with Teslas. The only issue with practicality really is if you wouldn't be able to set up a home charger, in which case yeh I wouldn't consider an EV personally. But if your car is starting every day with in the region of 300 miles after a cheap night time recharge, it's not often you'd need a public charger unless you forgot to plug it in. I think in the 7 years I've been driving, I'd have only needed to use a public charger twice if I had one of those.

As for reliability, less moving parts means less things to go wrong and less maintenance. I see you allude to cold weather, which was certainly an issue in older battery chemistries and designs, but the current batteries are far more resistant, and thermal management systems have improved it further. Not really an issue in newer Teslas from the last few years. If I was to consider a different brand I'd have to do my research on them first, some of them are playing catch up.

[Armchair supporter supremo]

3 hours ago, Gav said:

I never bought a Tesla for the looks, but I think you're being harsh Armchair. 

Blistering pace, plenty of gadgets, loads of cabin and boot space + around 280 miles between charges, whats not to like!

Its all a matter of opinions of course.

I just find "Tesla" an absolute turn off to be honest, Probably for the same reasons I've never owned an "Apple" product(for example 25% of the cost is usually just for the brand name)

[only2garners]

2 hours ago, ABBEY said:

Hope all you electric brainwashed are only using solar power to charge otherwise your all  bullshitting gretas 

 

Well I am Abbey, apart from an occasional charge not at home, where I’ve no idea where the power comes from. My electricity is all renewable from Ecotricity, the majority either solar or wind, apart from the solar I’m generating on our roof.

My reasons for not going near a Tesla remain the same as the ones I outlined two years ago. Luckily, there plenty of other choices.

[ABBEY]

So your happy at kids mining and dying as slaves  for your "green" car?

[bluebruce]

3 hours ago, ABBEY said:

So your happy at kids mining and dying as slaves  for your "green" car?

The same batteries are in your phone and your laptop if you have one and it isn't ancient, so are you happy about it?

[bluebruce]

23 hours ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

I just find "Tesla" an absolute turn off to be honest, Probably for the same reasons I've never owned an "Apple" product(for example 25% of the cost is usually just for the brand name)

I can see that. Musk is an absolute throbbing bellend, and the idea of putting money in his hands is a major turnoff from the idea of buying a new Tesla (I guess a used one wouldn't do that though). I believe they recently announced they'll be cutting 10% of their global workforce to cut costs, whilst they're also attempting to give Musk about 40 billion I think it is (after a court already said they couldn't). Prick.

Can see why you'd compare them to Apple too (a brand that like you I'll never invest in, partly because of the irritating and misguided 'culture of cool' around them, and partly because they're incompatible with everything). Both brands have their fare share of fanboys and like you say, their prices get artifically inflated because of their brand name. In Tesla's case though, this extra cost is more or less offset by them having achieved economies of scale nobody outside of BYD has managed, meaning you genuinely get a better product, often at similar or better prices than similar models from rivals. But, mostly cos of Musk, I hope by the time I can afford an EV everyone else has caught up and I can seriously consider a different brand.

[only2garners]

7 hours ago, ABBEY said:

So your happy at kids mining and dying as slaves  for your "green" car?

As happy as I presume you are with production of your ICE cars and many other consumer products.

[Norbert Rassragr]

Just need to get a government that isn't funded by those big oil companies, and start getting more environmentally friendly energy sources like wind and solar. 

The first electric car was made in 1888, which is surprising. 

[bluebruce]

5 hours ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

The first electric car was made in 1888, which is surprising. 

Technically even earlier than that, in 1881, though seems 1888 was when the first true electric car was made.

I'd heard about these Victorian era EVs before, and that they were actually viable competitors to combustion cars for a while, but I couldn't remember how they ended up not making the grade, so I looked it up and found this article with a history of the EV: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle

Some interesting highlights include setting speed and distance records early doors, notably the first road vehicle to break the 62 mph barrier, in 1899. In the 1910s there was a vehicle with a 110 mile range, although it could only hit 20 mph. And exchangeable batteries (where you just swap your drained battery for a fully charged one) were proposed as long ago as 1896 and was provided between 1910 and 1924. That's a concept that still has some legs these days, as this is what a company called Nio do to get around charging times (I don't think this one will pan out in the long term though). Also, the first crewed vehicle to drive on the moon, the Lunar Rover, was an EV.

Why did they fail? I'll just give the cliff notes to avoid boring people with another lengthy post. The decline started in the 1910s and 1920s. More petrol was found. Many more roads were built, so longer journeys were possible the EVs didn't have range for. Charging infrastructure wasn't really there on the scale needed for long trips. They were best suited to cities because they were slower and couldn't travel as far. Gasoline cars overcame some of their disadvantages - they no longer needed a time-consuming and dangerous hand-crank to start, and mufflers made them quieter. Henry Ford mass produced ICE cars rather than EVs, making them a lot cheaper.

Some of these same problems exist in the EV landscape now, but not as extremely, and they're being constantly worked on. There were no climate change issues to further spur this on. I can't help but think though - if the lithium-ion battery had been invented way back then, instead of lead-acid, would we all have been driving EVs now our whole adult lives? Of course, this was in the days before effective renewables, so we'd still have had a lot of (but less) pollution.

Edited Tuesday at 19:41 by bluebruce