Venky’s v Indian Government (a) - 5/8/2025 - Post-Season Friendly (s/t late postponements)

[wilsdenrover]

10 hours ago, Upside Down said:

Definitely begs the question of what was the other 22 million for?

We've managed to survive the last few years on less than 20 million total so how were they needing to send 15 million a year? Where was it all going?

 

I’m going to do some more speculating here.

The £26 million was requested (as evidenced in order of 7/6/23) for Venkys London Ltd, Venkys Overseas Limited and Venkateshwara London Limited - but with no details as to proportions.

The Order dated 31/10/23 then tells us this £26 million was to cover their commitments for the year 23-24 (suggesting ‘payment in advance’)

 Venkys Overseas Limited is the company which they claimed was for rearing of ducks etc (source - Directorate of Enforcement press release 2/9/23)

As you know, Venkateshwara London Limited own the training ground - I’d postulate some of that £26 million was to enable them to pay instalments due (to the club) on the purchase of this.

The fact they then took out the loan against the training ground (I think someone may have suggested £9 million?) possibly supports this.

In October ‘23 the next £11 million was requested - the breakdown in the relevant order (31/10/23) indicates this was also for 23-24 commitments (which I’d suggest makes this part of the initial £26 million)

£3.54 million sent + £11 million sent + £9 million loan on training ground = £23.54 million (not far off - maybe the remainder was for rearing more chickens🤔 * )

* Despite the aforementioned DoE press release stating no business activity being initiated in the eleven years since Venkys Overseas was  incorporated 🧐🤨 (nothing dodgy in trying to send more funds to them then…)

I’ve made a few assumptions along the way there so I might be spot on but equally I could be entirely wrong!! 
 

Edited to add an additional thought…

The £15 million in March ‘24 could be the payment in advance for 24-25.

Is this figure lower than the year before because of Adam Wharton…

Edited yesterday at 10:56 by wilsdenrover

[wilsdenrover]

As I’ve nothing better to do 😁, I’ve had another read of the court order dated 23/6/2023 which sets out Venkys’ argument…

They appear to be saying (because of the timing of their investment) the 2004 FEMA Regulations are relevant (not the 2022 ones).

Under the 2004 Regs they’d need permission (due to the investigation) from the bank to send funds - something the bank had been happy to provide.

Under the 2022 Regs they need permission from the Directorate of Enforcement - something the DoE are unwilling to give.

This argument is yet to be fully considered in court…

What has happened is - the £3.54 million being approved as an interim measure +

A series of separate applications either requesting permission to send further funds or to vary the conditions required to do so.

An absolute shitload of adjournments. 

 

 

[Tomphil2]

So it will inevitably drag on and on for a year or two yet by which time - soon - we are out of players to sell to make any dent in the running costs.

IF this carries on relegation is nailed on unless they bite the bullet and meet running costs AND court obligations and costs, plus the 20% money transfer fees !

I suspect the club (i.e Suhail) know this and this is why the stall is being set out and the type of guy they seem to be seeking come in for Waggot and run it on the breadline whereas he kept it just above that.

Again the only real solution for the betterment of the club is sell it or at least seek investment from people who can do so.

[wilsdenrover]

7 minutes ago, Tomphil2 said:

So it will inevitably drag on and on for a year or two yet by which time - soon - we are out of players to sell to make any dent in the running costs.

IF this carries on relegation is nailed on unless they bite the bullet and meet running costs AND court obligations and costs, plus the 20% money transfer fees !

I suspect the club (i.e Suhail) know this and this is why the stall is being set out and the type of guy they seem to be seeking come in for Waggot and run it on the breadline whereas he kept it just above that.

Again the only real solution for the betterment of the club is sell it or at least seek investment from people who can do so.

Maybe things will change now the investigation has reached the adjudicating phase - or maybe this is something else which will drag on and on and on*

* The investigation itself started in 2021…

[lraC]

16 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Maybe things will change now the investigation has reached the adjudicating phase - or maybe this is something else which will drag on and on and on*

* The investigation itself started in 2021…

would you mind expanding on the investigation, has reached the adjudicating phase? 

When is this, what dies it mean and what is the anticipated outcome?

Sorry, if I am asking too much, as I know you have spent a lot of time already on this.

[wilsdenrover]

35 minutes ago, lraC said:

would you mind expanding on the investigation, has reached the adjudicating phase? 

When is this, what dies it mean and what is the anticipated outcome?

Sorry, if I am asking too much, as I know you have spent a lot of time already on this.

I don’t know when it is because, as much as I’ve tried, I can’t find  information anywhere confirming a date or whether one has even been set yet. 

In terms of what it is - as far as I understand it:

* The Directorate of Enforcement have made their complaint (confirmed in last court order) to the Adjudicating Authority - in other words they believe their investigation has revealed a case to be answered.

* The Adjudicating Authority (could be one person or multiple peoples) will hold an inquiry, looking at the evidence, allowing the Venkys to defend themselves etc.

* They will then either be found guilty and a fine issued or they will be found innocent and the matter will be brought to a close**

** Both parties have a right of appeal and a right to appeal that appeal.

In terms of the anticipated outcome, I think someone said the DoE has a 95% success rate.

In terms of the fine,  this can be anything up to three times the amount of the monies sent in contravention of the rules. 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by wilsdenrover

[MarkBRFC]

3 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

 

** Both parties have a right of appeal and a right to appeal that appeal.

 

This whole saga will still be going on in the year 2035 at this rate.

[wilsdenrover]

1 minute ago, MarkBRFC said:

This whole saga will still be going on in the year 2035 at this rate.

I admire your optimism 😁

[lraC]

4 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

I don’t know when it is because, as much as I’ve tried, I can’t find  information anywhere confirming a date or whether one has even been set yet. 

In terms of what it is - as far as I understand it:

* The Directorate of Enforcement have made their complaint (confirmed in last court order) to the Adjudicating Authority - in other words they believe their investigation has revealed a case to be answered.

* The Adjudicating Authority (could be one person or multiple peoples) will hold an inquiry, looking at the evidence, allowing the Venkys to defend themselves etc.

* They will then either be found guilty and a fine issued or they will be found innocent and the matter will be brought to a close**

** Both parties have a right of appeal and a right to appeal that appeal.

In terms of the anticipated outcome, I think someone said the DoE has a 95% success rate.

In terms of the fine,  this can be anything up to three times the amount of the monies sent in contravention of the rules. 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Brilliant.

Helps massively, hopefully not just for me, but for those on here and beyond.

It could rumble on for a long time this, by the sounds of it and the longer it does, the more if an impact it will have on the club.

It begs the question yet again, as to why under these circumstances, would anyone hold onto the club, and after last nights WATR AGM the very fact that enquires have been made to purchase the club, but have been stonewalled, leads me back to where I have always been and that is the are running scared of some questionable activity, being discovered, should a deep dive of the accounts and the original takeover, take place. 

[OllieNO]

9 minutes ago, lraC said:

It begs the question yet again, as to why under these circumstances, would anyone hold onto the club, and after last nights WATR AGM the very fact that enquires have been made to purchase the club, but have been stonewalled, leads me back to where I have always been and that is the are running scared of some questionable activity, being discovered, should a deep dive of the accounts and the original takeover, take place. 

I do agree, but how questionable can this activity really have been - it’s not like they’ve been trafficking drugs or people through Ewood is it? Ok, perhaps the buyers DD reveals (just speculations - worst case scenarios) they’ve paid a lot of fees to shady agents (which club hasn’t), may have been dealing with some cash under the table perhaps(unlikely to be discovered), bookkeeping and tax reporting may not have been top notch, some questionable related party transactions maybe, but this is all minor stuff in the grand scheme of things. And when the club has been sold they’ll all be back in India safe and sound miles away from any fines, minor negative publicity etc. It will all be history and forgotten about sooner than we all think.

Why can’t  they at least do as Chansiri at Sheff W, who now seems to finally have decided to sell (although he’s apparently turned down some more than decent offers recently and appears to have put a crazy price tag on the club) - at least he’s responding to offers in a semi-rational manner???

[JPTSwindon]

Presumably the offers (or just enquiries) aren't huge to purchase the club (we lose circa £20-£30m a season), limited / poor (potential) attendances etc - it doesn't scream big offer, so perhaps it is a simple as they are wanting a bigger return?

Or perhaps they worry it could influence the outcome of the court case?

[lraC]

36 minutes ago, OllieNO said:

I do agree, but how questionable can this activity really have been - it’s not like they’ve been trafficking drugs or people through Ewood is it? Ok, perhaps the buyers DD reveals (just speculations - worst case scenarios) they’ve paid a lot of fees to shady agents (which club hasn’t), may have been dealing with some cash under the table perhaps(unlikely to be discovered), bookkeeping and tax reporting may not have been top notch, some questionable related party transactions maybe, but this is all minor stuff in the grand scheme of things. And when the club has been sold they’ll all be back in India safe and sound miles away from any fines, minor negative publicity etc. It will all be history and forgotten about sooner than we all think.

Why can’t  they at least do as Chansiri at Sheff W, who now seems to finally have decided to sell (although he’s apparently turned down some more than decent offers recently and appears to have put a crazy price tag on the club) - at least he’s responding to offers in a semi-rational manner???

Perhaps, it is not only their decision.

Plenty of agents seem to have been involved over the years and I know it was rumoured that Venky's were a front and the real owners are agents and others, but who knows.

It certainly makes no sense at all, that they would hang onto the club, at this juncture, it simply does not add up.

[Tomphil2]

They paid c39 million including debt but sold c35 million quids worth of players in the first 18 months. They've created a 'model' that loses 15/20 million a year most years so i think any reasonable offer would be a bonus.

Forget the 200 million company tax write off money they've used that's gone it's never ever coming back nor is half of it because this club will never achieve promotion under their stewardship.

So wanting some kind of good return is fantasy, clubs of our size get sold all the time but non of them bring big money outside of the Prem and never ever will.

I'd say it's more likely they think 'oh well it ain't worth selling, we don't want the files opening and whatever that might bring' so we'll plod on and leave it to Suhail and his pals to bring it into line with what we can be bothered with these days.

[mhead]

The only reason we were losing £20mn per year on average was because of stupid deals and stupid pay offs that had to be cleared from the Accounts after each Financial Year.

Not at home at moment(or in UK) but at home I have a list of the major cock-ups over 15 years. The ones I can remember to give some indication of a badly-run Club are things like: - Reuben Rochina's real cost incl Agents etc; Leon Best fee and pay off; Kean's Contract; Etuhu/Murphy 5 year Contracts and pay offs; Henning Berg's 6 week odyssey and Court Case; the 5 Portugese players; the list goes on and I got it  to £148mn.

The above is without Brereton, Rothwell, Lenihan and others(now Dolan,Travis, Tronstad) getting away because of poor direction and handling.

This list would go with a Rovers Prospectus to sell the Club, to show that good management, vision and direction could attract the supporters back and re-launch our Club up the Leagues (assuming League 1 is beckoning).

[wilsdenrover]

I think they truly believe they can recuperate all their losses through being promoted.

Whether they would or wouldn’t is open to debate, but we’re unlikely to find out unless they stop sabotaging (whether deliberately or through incompetence) our chances of a return to the top flight.