How much have Cardiff spent to be on the cusp of the Premier League? How much have PNE spent to be on the cusp of the play-offs? How much have Millwall spent to rocket up the league and be in with a chance of the play-offs? How much have Sunderland spent on their squad to be going straight through to League One? The clubs that are stable (ownership, executive, playing staff) that make sensible, thought out decisions, signings and appointments, will survive or thrive on limited funding. That doesn't mean spending millions for the sake of it, it doesn't even mean you need to keep hold of your best players every year, it doesn't mean you have to keep a manager in place for the sake of 'stability'. It means that people at the club know what the aim is, know where they stand, know what is happening and are able to get on with it to try and do the best they can. The clubs that are clueless, badly managed, throw money down the drain and have a revolving door of personnel will fail. For the first group see Cardiff, PNE, Bolton, Millwall, Brentford and previously Dingles. For the second club see ourselves, Sunderland, Birmingham, Hull and to a less disastrous extent Leeds and Forest. Can we made the transition across that divide? Possibly, but I think it is too early to say that. Winning games is a nice, unusual feeling but does have the effect of papering over cracks and putting other issues and concerns onto the backburner. It can be done and hopefully the appointment of Waggott is a step towards that but its a long way off being sustained.

Was watching the highlights of England Holland Euro 96 on the Beeb website this morning. Now THAT was a team of leaders, with real quality too. Seaman, Pearce, Adams, Southgate, Neville, Ince, Gascoigne, McMananaman, Platt, Sheringham, Shearer. We've had a real decline this past twenty years.

I certainly don't disagree that we need to be a well-run, efficient club to be somewhat financially stable (although most Championship clubs lose a ton of money, turning back to the parachute payments havers vs have nots...) and successful in the Championship, but thought I'd add some numbers and context to the discussion. The Championship's financial landscape has/will change a lot with the increase in parachute payments. The focus should be on wage expenditure, not just transfer fees. While we're probably paying absurd wages by League 1 standards this year (the accounts up to March 2017 had our wage bill at £22.6m, so maybe we're down to £15m-ish in League 1? Hard to say...), that's still a pittance in the Championship. For reference, the always great SwissRamble is going through PL and Championship 16-17 accounts as they come in. This chart shows the wage bills for 16-17 that have been reported so far: https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/977106429168545792 After some inflation this year, the typical 'competitive' wage bill (with exceptions that have already been pointed out!) is probably ~£35m (about the same as our wage bill the first couple years after relegation), but then the likes of Aston Villa, Norwich, and Newcastle can handle wage bills of £50-60m+. (You can also see Cardiff isn't necessarily the best example of a 'low-spending' club when in 16-17 they had a wage bill of £29m to go along with £29m in revenue and incurred a loss of £21m. I suspect their finances aren't much better for 17-18 as they've had a net transfer spend of ~£10m, plus/minus loan fees) On a related note, the difference in revenues is getting staggering too: https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/977106343139119104 We may hit ~£25m revenue back in the Championship, but parachute payment clubs now have revenues of £75m+. It's obviously not impossible for a lower-spending team to have some success in the Championship, and posters have already highlighted the right role models for us (Preston, Bristol City, maybe Millwall this year), and revenues of course don't decide everything with notable examples, but I suspect the Championship may slowly drift to have vs have nots with the increasing dominance of parachute payment revenues (think of it like Champions League revenue...) It won't be as '"easy" as when we were last in it. I think our parachute payments were something like £10-12m/year when we went down, versus £41m/year today. I think Venky's have 'proven' they're willing to keep up a £15m+ wage bill in League 1, and probably incur £10m+ losses doing so, but are they willing to pay a £30m+ wage bill in the Championship and possibly incur £20m+ losses again (plus FFP considerations...)? Hard to say. (Hence I agree with the posters in this thread that we need to see the successful low-spending clubs like Preston or Bristol City as role models)

We’ll need £20million just to stand still. Despite appearing to shed a lot of high earners, there’s still been a cash deficit of £1.5m a month this last 12 months. That’s with only limited spend on Dack etc transfer fees. I think a lot of people thought the cash drain would be massively reduced in League One, but appears not. Quite where all that money is going it is difficult to say.

Sustained sensible investment season on season it's what is needed not throwing huge wads at it because i'm still not convinced all snouts are out of the trough so every chance of repeating same mistakes. Holding on to what is worth holding on to and if they want to go or there's ridiculous offers a large part of that money needs reinvesting in direct replacements with similar potential not spreading around the squad on signing on fees for has beens off an agent or twos list let the manager and his people go after good young potential and actually pay for it. Basically follow a plan over a three year period and stick to it where possible both on and off the pitch and see where it leads. People expecting a wild spending spree and an instant challenge for the Prem IF we go up are clutching at straws I think.

20 million and you end up with overpriced, over paid players like Ross McCormack. You don't need that amount of investment but you do at least need millions to spend. 5-10 million should see us put together a good squad. That's if we go up, that is. If we don't I suspect this "investment", as some call it, will be recouped in other ways.

Problem is you spend £12million on lets say 4 decent recruits. Up a level they want 3 or 4 year deals and we are back to £20 grand a week if the players are any good. So you then end up with 4 players costing you £4million a year for 4 years = £16mill of wages plus £12mill transfer costs. that's where it gets silly again with our gates and income. I get the feeling the accountants who came in last Summer wouldn't let them do that so it is a concern I have had personally for a while .I think its more likely to be a go up and see what you can do with a couple of quid rather than an assault on the PL.

I have my own thoughts on some of that but looking at it non conspiracy how many managers and coaching teams have been hired and fired in the last couple of years never mind a few directors as well. That's why I struggle to give any gratitude to them underwriting the bills because a huge lump of it was continually created by them, firing GB & co, hiring all that Lambert backroom team as well as him then not backing them, letting them go then hiring that teapot Coyle and his crew. Not to mention some of the crap they foisted on us that had to be paid big wages then paid off in a few cases. Jesus Barry should have had to sell his car collection and pay for all that lot straight out of his own pocket.

Wages. Not that difficult to say at all

Do we really need 20 million though? How much have Cardiff spent? A hard working well drilled team will always do well.

Just came across this on YouTube. I’ve so far watched about twenty minutes and he’s hilarious. It was filmed at the Thwaites theatre in 2003 and I recommend watching if you’ve got a bit of spare time and fancy a laugh.

From a physio standpoint it's just as bad that another, presumably more healthy part of his hamstring, has pulled. The measure of severity of the injury will be whether he's pulled, snapped or just strained that part of the muscle. It will be further scar tissue either way and result in an even weaker hamstring. Hopefully he's allowed proper recovery time and doesn't feel pressured to play again. He's been a joy to watch in his short spell here but we must conserve his career like you say