Looking at the lineups - Germany have not matched up 343, they've gone 4231. So it should maybe be a better game and a bit more free flowing as the sides wont directly cancel each other out. England will be able to double up on their full backs, but Germany will have an additional player through the middle. On top of that Stones should add a bit of passing quality to the back line, and Shaw gives us a proper left foot so we can use the width. In terms of the XI its a clear indication that the world cup team is pretty settled despite the results. Maguire still in there, Bellingham and Rice, Stones back, Stones, Foden, Sterling all in.

To kind of go back about what I said about things hardly likely to change, I suppose there is a chance given just how badly England have performed last five games that maybe Southgate will go for a big change. Can't really see it though. Team for tonight I would slightly modify the lineup to have five in midfield, let the full backs bomb on, rather than congesting the wide areas, and get Foden on the ball centrally to try and link things up. Ramsdale Walker Stones Tomori James Bellingham Foden Rice Shaw Kane Sterling

I'd put my money that first game the following nine will defo start fit. Southgate is a creature of habit... Pickford, Walker, Stones, James, Rice, Bellingham, Sterling, Foden, Kane Maguire would have been an absolute shoo-in but things going so badly for him can see him being dropped (but who for?). And left wing back will be a toss-up between Shaw and Chilwell (as there aren't any other options). Can't really see how it would be much different to the above really. There's only one game prior to opening of WC, and while someone like Toney, Grealish, Saka or Abraham could have an absolute blinder tomorrow it's unlikley to drastically change things in terms of starting lineup. For me anyway it's not really the personnel that's the issue. Lots of good players. It's how they are being setup and used.

Yeah - 2004 had a great set of attacking players, but none of them wanted to play wide. Scholes, Gerard, Lampard all wanted to play as attacking centre mids breaking in the box, Rooney loved dropping off into the same sort of number 10 space. We had no left sided midfielders at all, Beckham on the right was hardly a winger either. He liked to drift centrally or play early balls in rather than getting to the by-line. And because we had to fit that lot of attacking players in the team we then ended up having no holding midfielder either. All a recipe for team that didn't really work in terms of balance and shape. If you gave me a choice between the midfield and strikers of 2004 or 2022 while clearly 2004 had the better individuals, I would be tempted to go for the 2022 set. I know that sounds ridiculous on the run we're on, but tbh I think part of the reason we've done well at 2018 and 2021 is that we've been able to build a team with the right balance, not just an all star team of big names who don't fit together at all. That Southgate hasn't managed to find the right fluid setup currently when he's got solid or exceptional players in every position on the pitch is very concerning. Got one game tomorrow to get it right.

Very true. Real shame for all the young talent coming through there isn't a deep lying playmaker in there. Closest we've produced in that style the last 10 years is Harry Winks but lacks international quality. Maybe something for Adam Wharton to aim for?!

To be fair he is the most successful England manager since Alf Ramsey. I know there's a lot of soft draw chat etc, but he made a semi and a final in back to back tournaments and no one has got remotely near that in 50 years. I have a vague hope that he'll find a the right setup in the next 50 days. Looks a bit fanciful though atm.

Thought Southgate has generally been tactically very good for most of his time. We had a weak squad in 2018 and a decent but patchy squad in 2021 but got to the semis and final and looked competitive even when we went out. Totally tactically did the Germans in 2021. But he's all at sea at the moment, and with a very good set of players

Agreed... Really just felt very similar to Luton Vs Rovers. Missing a player in midfield, wide players barely involved. Never ever got going.

I've always thought Southgate has got more out of the sum of the squads parts. But last 12 months started thinking thats no longer the case. Today some major tactical errors. Our offensive players saw very little of the ball. Italy should have won by more. Team didn't look motivated. Tried some changes which gave us a brief offensive boost, but more fragile defensively. Didn't have a single period of dominance against Italy who - while European champions - didn't qualify for the world cup, and just lost 5-0 against Germany. Hmmm.

To be fair we look immediately a lot better ..

The lineup and non subs suggests to me this was England's first XI. Just gone 4231. Don't really see how that helps us?

Assumed he was... Abraham then obvious choice.

Should get Sterling off, bring on Toney on to play in a two with Kane and drop Foden into central midfield. Its so daft the 343. The wing backs can't get forward because they are crowded out by their own wide forwards. Go 352 and everyone's a winner. We get an extra centre mid to compete. Kane gets a partner to help get the ball to stick, and the wing backs have the room to bomb on.

Very few teams play 442 sadly. Gets picked off in different ways by other formations. Just watching the England Italy game where it's devolved into a three at the back stalemate, and as interesting and sensible as the tactical game is, you do miss the 90s when virtually everybody would play 442 and play relentlessly end to end.

Wonder if we will fail to match up at half time and they do us second half. TBF Italy wasted a few decent opportunities first 10 mins.

Its funny the way England playing today is very reminiscent of Luton Vs Rovers. We've got three forwards on but can't get the ball to them, Italy have an extra midfielder so are dominating the center of the pitch.

I like Toney a lot. A real all-rounder. Will watch the game tonight with interest. Nations League splits opinions but for me I'd take it over a friendly any time. England now have a very good squad who should be showing why they are contenders for the world cup. Only thing that worries me is the central defence. Still up in the air and unconvincing. Kane, Bellingham, Rice, James, Saka, Foden, Grealish all super players. Just need to get it all clicking. Will get a real sense playing Italy away in a competitive game where we are at.

Love Ayala defending the box, but not a fan of his passing or lack of pace. I think it leads to us being very deep that creates a lot of other issues

I'd start next one 352 initially, make sure we are winning the midfield battle Team for me Kaminski Carter. Hyam. S Wharton Brittain. Travis. Buckley. Pickering Dack Hedges. Brereton Subs : Pears, Ayala, Mola, Morton, A Wharton, Dolan, Hirst I do think one we sort our balance out we can go on a real run.

Actually turns out I was the one schooled by MB, Sweaty Gussets and DE. The modern use of decimated to mean "greatly reduced" is in all the dictionaries, I just had a look. Mea Culpa. Theres something uniquely tragic about the pedant who turns out to be wrong. (But it's literally got 'deci' in it! *shakes fist*)

I know on BRFCS we love an excursion into language pedantry and one of my peeves is the outrageous misuse of "decimated". It literally means "to reduce by one tenth" as "deci" derived from the Latin for the suggests. It comes from the somewhat harsh ancient Roman legion practice of summarily executing 1 of 10 of their own legionnaires after a particularly humiliating defeat or act of insurrection. Its often used today to mean "enormous reduction" but it's just wrong to do so. If the argument is we lost 12 players from a say 30 man squad then it's a manifestly insufficient term! (Apologies, I was going to let it pass but it's been used half a dozen times on this thread incorrectly and I just couldn't stop myself).

If Man City weren't the Harlem Globetrotters you'd fancy Arsenal for the title. The prems always struggled with the biggest spenders dominating too much, but City at the moment take the piss. There's little fun in the total dominance of teams with outrageous amounts of cash.

The obvious move for me would have been to take one of Dolan or Hedges off and gone 352. We were getting nothing out of the wide forwards and getting nothing out of midfield, so changing that balance seemed the right thing to try. Kaminski Hyam. Ayala. Wharton Brittain. Travis. Morton. Pickering Dack Hirst. Brereton Still think we would have had a problem with Ayala making us sit too deep as well though....

Yup even better if you can make sure they have it on the edge of their own box, and the player with poor distribution is the one whose going to have the most touches in the entire side

One further thought on the Luton game... We played very deep most of the game and their big number 9 loved it winning the headers on the 18 year box. I do wonder if this will be a bit of a theme with Ayala due to his lack of pace. Also his distribution isn't the best and he saw a lot of the ball but couldn't do much with it. Unlike say JPVH who was so good passing or stepping into midfield if wed got the CBs nearer the mids it could really have helped. Food for thought. Alternative would be to pull Hyam to the centre and play Carter on the right of the three as Britain is back.