Excellent move - first positive move of the summer. The difference between this sort of signing and the previous is the difference of proven quality vs hopeful. Can't believe 8 years ago watching Carlisle I would be chuffed that Graham had signed for us. Times change. Now if only we could be rid of the manager, owner and external influences on the club. Then it'd be a very good day. And we still need another couple of quality forwards to support Graham. But for once we've made a positive step.

Because they have a very good manager (my first shout for the Rovers job). Let's be honest they're a league 1 club, and sooner or later their finances size and resources will mean they're struggling at the wrong end of the table. I've no doubt that the board will then panic and Grayson will be told to pack his bags. But a fair assessment is that keeping them in this league is a success story for them. Where they are currently is a massive success for them, and shows that Grayson not being able to hack it in the Championship is incorrect.

Bit harsh Imo - rotherham, Bolton, Huddersfield, Bristol, MK Dons, Preston all have weaker teams Imo. Although I'd have been more certain of that at the start of the season! Plus you've the basket case clubs like Leeds which also are odds on to implode. A bit of consistency and this league is there for the taking.

Realistically at 8 points clear - possibly more with the game in hand - the bottom 3 need to win 3 without us picking up any points to overtake us.(I say 3 wins as our goal difference massively helps.) personally I can't see the bottom 3 all doing that nor us not grinding out some more points - draws if not wins. It may not be pretty or what we hoped for from this season but I'm confident we'll be in this division next year. Too many poor teams and now too big a barrier for them to climb.

If you did, I imagined it too. Great goal, quality player, who couldn't settle.

Didn't he do well at Swansea but then bomb at Leicester? Or am I thinking of a completely different chap? Could've worked, as the Leicester mishap was at the time they got through a lot of managers, whilst all bar the best managers have a blip at some point in their career. He can't be too bad if he's now managing in Serie A.

But that doesn't necessarily mean they are worse managers. Comparatively when you factor in squad quality, length of time in the role, wage budget, transfer budget and numbers brought in,prestige of club for attracting players I don't think Bowyer comes out very well. the Anyway back on topic after an EXCELLENT win at the weekend to me the relegation scramble is shaping up similar to what imagined. The promoted teams are struggling, and Bolton and Rotherham look like they've nowhere near enough to stay up. All in all I still reckon we'll be safe. You've teams like us and Huddersfield who have a bit of quality but can also be very fragile. If we/they show more of the fragility than the quality then they'll get sucked in but there's enough teams down there to keep us safe. A poor start, only one win, and we're out of the relegation zone, which speaks volumes for the quality of the league.

Also both Gresko and Peltzer got bad injuries which hampered the team, whilst Gresko also had to cope with the worst set of stand in left midfielders ever, which didn't help his cause.

Judging from how we've been doing, I can well believe round Brockhall way this is an original thought. Good to see the PR defense machine in full working order...

Stuart my expectations have not been changed by bowyer - with the quality of the league and the players we have midtable is where we should be aiming for. As with th e last few years bowyer knocks off about 4/5 places from where we should be, minimum. Think we'll stay up in spite of not because of bowyer and he should be potted for not getting the team playing anywhere near uts potential even before you consider the relegation issue.

I grant you it's not a certainty rev but we've both seen many of our players performing better than they currently have and I've not seen much in this league to br scared of. We're our own worst enemy sometimes. I've explained all my reasoning on an earlier post although I admit relying on a tight league and some other poor teams is a bad way to go. I want bowyer gone, have done for ages, but I also feel by luck or ability - probably the former - we'll scrape enough points to survive.

Good point. Even so they had to have some reason/grounds for suggesting the sackings, to convince venkys to do so. Hence one reason I think he'll eventually go. Don't get me wrong I've been unhappy with bowyer for a long time and have often raised his flaws. Nor do I think we'll do well this season. Just that we won't get relegated this season.

Well no one can be 100% certain but think they're not under the poisonous influence that kept Kean in a job, but since then when we've looked like relegation or performing badly (as oppose to underperforming) they've sacked managers quickly. Also whatever plan they have their exit strategy or whatever it is cannot be served by going down to league 1.

No. Rotherham and Bristol City would also be in the mix and strong contenders for the drop. Also think it'll be interesting to see how the other 2 promoted teams do when they have a few bad rests or injuries. Plus think forest will be down there. Point I was trying to make is 2 teams I've seen have been rank bad and a third not much better. All of which is cause for optimism. Mind you I'm not too happy we're relying on 3 teams worse than us.

We won't get relegated Imo for several reasons. 1. The table is so tight that even with our horrendous start we're not far behind other teams. One win and we're back in the mid-table mix. 2. There are teams worse than us. Cardiff and Bolton easily and Hudds about similar, perhaps weaker. All of whom should do worse than us. 3. We do attack well when desperate - ie the last 10 min of the game. When we do we look dangerous. As we increasingly need the win I imagine we'll kitchen sink attack earlier and earlier in a game, and when we are on the front foot we've looked like getting points. 4. We still have players capable of doing a bit of magic creating something from nothing. Rhodes, Conway, Barrow and allegedly Marshall (based on last season) all could create something to get us out of a hole. 5. And most importantly I believe the squad is capable of doing a lot better. If we look like relegation later on in the season even Venkys will get rid of GB. And I believe anyone, anyone, could get more out of the squad. And if they can get more from the team we will do a lot better.

Thanks for the well thought out reply even if I massively disagree! Good to see discussion and disagreement can be had without name calling etc. Just to clarify on Millwall I'm not trying to compare the two - in fact make a big point about each manager standing on the merits of their own situation. However, just trying to put a bit of context to the Millwall situation and, my main Holloway/Millwall point is that he wasn't too far off expectations - a lower table finish. It's not like he got us, or Derby relegated, but one of the favourites/more likely to teams. Anyhow Bowyer stands, and imo falls, on his own merit . Firstly the reality that only 3 clubs can get promoted - agree, and it can be a cruel league. The lines between success and failure are marginal (just look at Derby last season.) However, the lines between our failure and success were far from marginal both times. We never really spent time in the playoffs either season and this season was written off by February. So all in all, the gap between success and failure for us is a lot bigger. Had he botched twice in the playoffs I think I might have a different opinion (or possibly not) but the fact is we've been light years away. It's the size of the failure which makes me want to get rid. Likewise the margins/size of failure were smaller for the other managers but again Bowyer stands and falls on his own situation. I won't lambaste him for not being Mouriniho or Ferguson, nor will I praise him because he's not Ince or K**n. Secondly you say if Bowyer was that bad we'd be in the bottom half of the table. Again, think that's a bit flawed as the quality we had meant underachieving for us looks like not being top 6 rather than bottom half of the table. For example United under Moyes finished 6th or there abouts. Now they weren't in the bottom half of the table but it's a failure because it's not where a team of that quality should be. They'd never be bottom half, but that's not what failure is graded on in their circumstances. In a similar (although not exactly the same, obviously) way I'd say that failure was regarded as not being top 6, rather than a bottom half finish. Finally the blank slate idea is daft imo. Why would we do that? If you've had 2 years of under-performing why should that not count against you. Equally if you've done brilliantly for many of the other years previously, surely that should give time and equity when you have a bit of a blip. Form is temporary and all that - and it shows a much better indicator of how a manager is performing. Equally we wouldn't give K**n a blank slate and quite rightly so - it'd be wrong to ignore and invalidate what went before. Now he's no K**n but why GB alone among managers deserves a fresh slate and everything wiped clean I'm not so sure. It's not the way football, or any other thing where you are rated on performance, works. Another analogy on this might be if I had several formal warnings at work, in a 3 strikes and out policy. If I had another one shortly after, just because it was a new academic year the management wouldn't say it only cumulatively counts as one as it's a new year but fire me. My previous conduct/performance would factor into the situation. Same way, Bowyer's performance should. Agree with you though, league 1 would be a disaster. Then the likes of Williamson and Brown would be our star players, and we'd be longing for the quality of Hanley and Lowe

Not sure who one of those clubs was but the other was Millwall. Now given he inherited a team massively struggling and had a terrible start, and given they were one of the smaller clubs and budgets in the league - probably one of the favourites for relegation, I don't think it's that massive a botch. Certainly not doing much worse than expectations there. But you know what, the issue isn't how others are doing with other clubs but how Bowyer has done with us. Boy, he can spot a player, but with the talented squad he assembled he has twice taken a team capable of playoffs to comfortably missing out. That's failure, and no matter how great Big Mick is or how crap Holloway is, the fact remain, independently, Bowyer twice underachieved with what he had. It'd be a logical assumption to assume he'll do so a third time, especially as the initial reports are we've the same problems as always. Personally I think we'll stay up. There's 2 clubs that are basket cases (Forest and Leeds) a club more insolvent than us (Bolton) and am not sure the clubs that got promoted are all that good. Certainly not last years Wolves and Brentford. Of them I reckon the latter may also suffer second season syndrome and not do so well. So that's around 7 clubs I reckon aren't that good who'll be competing for relegation. Make that 8 with Rotherham. Odds are we'll do better than three of them - or three will do worse than us - as there's still a fair bit of quality in the squad - Marshall, Conway, Kilgallon, Rhodes, the full backs when they get forward. In fact under another manager I doubt even with our much reduced squad we'd be worried about relegation. Shows how bad things are under Bowyer that we're contemplating it.

This is a huge problem and I reckon will destroy many lower league clubs in the next 50 years. When teaching one class in Carlisle all the lads were football mad but bar one odd chap supporting Spurs, they all supported man u and liverpool. They would go see the odd match, but not have any loyalty, nor any interest in season tickets - now or in the future - for Carlisle. Seeing the most obvious source of the next generation supporters not supporting Carlisle makes me wonder how the club will attract enough loyal and regular customers in 50 or so years time. Agree - its thoroughly depressing and destroys any notion of competition - which in turn defeats the purpose of playing.

Agree - although think it will end up that way. Millwall are a pretty rubbish team, but then so are we. They're physical and they're the type of teams we struggle most against. Having said that we've been in decent form of late. Both teams need something to stay up but aren't favorites for the drop. All in all it's got draw written all over it. Having Kaz back will be a huge boost. He holds the ball up well and tries to play it about (overplays it sometimes) which is what's needed to beat Millwall. I also wonder if they'll struggle with the pace of King as they don't strike me as the most mobile of teams. I'd also like to think after being knocked out of the FA cup quarters by them, the players would be "up" for this one and want revenge... A draw wouldn't be a bad result and would edge us towards safety. 1-1 with Rhodes (who else) scoring.

Very sad to hear this. Didn't know Kelbo at all but his posts were always very welcome and insightful. Even on an internet forum - he will be missed. Much more so by his friends and family and my thoughts and prayers are with them.

Well no one comes out of this smelling of roses. In fact it's a poor do all round - unsuprising given our current situation. Goodwillie has been crap for us. Ok he's been played out of position a lot and not had a decent run in the team, but whenever I've seen him he's looked slow to the point of stationary, with little nous, not great technique and so unfit it's untrue. Added to his alleged antics on nights out - both here and before he came - it's hardly a resounding endorsement to play the lad. In any other time I'd say get shot of the lad. Not good enough and not worth the aggro. Having said all of that, even with these limitations it's not like we've loads of players better in his position.This if nothing else states what a shambles we've become. Despite all my reservations Goodwillie certainly is better than some lightweight, inexperienced no-mark from portugal, and that's obvious for all to see. 2 poor games from Edhino, an admission from the manager that Edhino isn't ready - yet still Goodwillie can't get ahead of him. It makes you wonder why? At best Kean is being incompetent, at it's worst i's deeply suspicious.

I don't know, Hughes might do ok if he picks the right club. Perhaps he could do ok Not saying it's a foolproof rule or anything, but I do think that a player's character can be one good indicator of whether or not they'd be a good manager. Hughes had a more controlled aggression to me, and Souness wasn't a bad manager either. I guess with them they seemed a lot more focussed in their aggression than say Dickov, who complains over every foul, throw in and contact with a defender. Do you really think he'll be a success? Ince was another one who didn't seem to have the right temperment (very easy to say in hindsight). His West Ham / United kit botch, the way he banged on about manure when he returned from Inter to Liverpool suggests there isn't that maturity with which to deal with situations. Sure people can change, and can suprise you, but I think stuff like this can help.

Am unsuprised about Short becoming a manager - even prior to his stint in Hungary. Managed to speak with him at a reserve game late on in his rovers carear and he seemed the management type - level headed, clued up and able to convey his thoughts. Dickov's a shock to be honest. He knows those leagues like the back of his hand but you can hardly say he has the right temperment to management. He'll be sent to the stand every other game - for disputing minor things like throw ins no doubt. Can't see him making it, especially as Oldham isn't an easy job.

I love the fact that there is just a picture of a City shirt with Santa Cruz's name and number on. The caption is brilliant - I couldn't find footage of Santa Cruz playing. It shows how astute Sam has been in the transfer window, getting rid of players just at the right time.

Firstly I hope the guy pulls through. As for the behaviour of our away fans, I have to say it seems two very different extremes. On one hand there was a diverse demographic at the game. There was a group of old ladies, as well as a fair few other representatives from the older generation, I saw several families as well as a number of father-son combinations at the ground. Having said that, you do seem to get a lot of lads who seem to be out on the lash. The first problem is standing. I was sat row 23 in the corner. From where we were the view was excellent, and no one in the rows om front of us persistantly stood. However, there were two large contingents standing. The first right at the front, and the second towards the back. Now I don't have a huge problem with people standing, providing you're not blocking others view, but doing it both front and back must have made it extremely difficult for those fans with children, who can't stand, to see the game. In fact there was one family who quite clearly must have struggled all afternoon and were hardly right towards the back. It seems that unless you hit the jackpot in terms of seating, anyone who doesn't wish to stand will be in for a long afternoon. Interesting to see the stewards so active in getting people to sit down. I assume it had something to do with the incident at half time (which I had no idea of during the game). Incidentally with such a presence of stewards I wonder how such an action like having a bin chucked about was able to happen. Another interesting feature I noticed - at times the away fans behaviour was more interesting than the game - was a group of lads who rather than watching the game, diverted their attention to bellowing and chanting obsenities at the policeman recording the fans on the video camera. Now I'm not wild about being recorded, but to spend the entire game hurling obsenities at the police or opposition fans seems like a waste of £25 to me. This is an unwelcome element at away games, I'm all for some banter, but fans trying to cause aggro/look hard we could do without.