No. Rotherham and Bristol City would also be in the mix and strong contenders for the drop. Also think it'll be interesting to see how the other 2 promoted teams do when they have a few bad rests or injuries. Plus think forest will be down there. Point I was trying to make is 2 teams I've seen have been rank bad and a third not much better. All of which is cause for optimism. Mind you I'm not too happy we're relying on 3 teams worse than us.

We won't get relegated Imo for several reasons. 1. The table is so tight that even with our horrendous start we're not far behind other teams. One win and we're back in the mid-table mix. 2. There are teams worse than us. Cardiff and Bolton easily and Hudds about similar, perhaps weaker. All of whom should do worse than us. 3. We do attack well when desperate - ie the last 10 min of the game. When we do we look dangerous. As we increasingly need the win I imagine we'll kitchen sink attack earlier and earlier in a game, and when we are on the front foot we've looked like getting points. 4. We still have players capable of doing a bit of magic creating something from nothing. Rhodes, Conway, Barrow and allegedly Marshall (based on last season) all could create something to get us out of a hole. 5. And most importantly I believe the squad is capable of doing a lot better. If we look like relegation later on in the season even Venkys will get rid of GB. And I believe anyone, anyone, could get more out of the squad. And if they can get more from the team we will do a lot better.

Thanks for the well thought out reply even if I massively disagree! Good to see discussion and disagreement can be had without name calling etc. Just to clarify on Millwall I'm not trying to compare the two - in fact make a big point about each manager standing on the merits of their own situation. However, just trying to put a bit of context to the Millwall situation and, my main Holloway/Millwall point is that he wasn't too far off expectations - a lower table finish. It's not like he got us, or Derby relegated, but one of the favourites/more likely to teams. Anyhow Bowyer stands, and imo falls, on his own merit . Firstly the reality that only 3 clubs can get promoted - agree, and it can be a cruel league. The lines between success and failure are marginal (just look at Derby last season.) However, the lines between our failure and success were far from marginal both times. We never really spent time in the playoffs either season and this season was written off by February. So all in all, the gap between success and failure for us is a lot bigger. Had he botched twice in the playoffs I think I might have a different opinion (or possibly not) but the fact is we've been light years away. It's the size of the failure which makes me want to get rid. Likewise the margins/size of failure were smaller for the other managers but again Bowyer stands and falls on his own situation. I won't lambaste him for not being Mouriniho or Ferguson, nor will I praise him because he's not Ince or K**n. Secondly you say if Bowyer was that bad we'd be in the bottom half of the table. Again, think that's a bit flawed as the quality we had meant underachieving for us looks like not being top 6 rather than bottom half of the table. For example United under Moyes finished 6th or there abouts. Now they weren't in the bottom half of the table but it's a failure because it's not where a team of that quality should be. They'd never be bottom half, but that's not what failure is graded on in their circumstances. In a similar (although not exactly the same, obviously) way I'd say that failure was regarded as not being top 6, rather than a bottom half finish. Finally the blank slate idea is daft imo. Why would we do that? If you've had 2 years of under-performing why should that not count against you. Equally if you've done brilliantly for many of the other years previously, surely that should give time and equity when you have a bit of a blip. Form is temporary and all that - and it shows a much better indicator of how a manager is performing. Equally we wouldn't give K**n a blank slate and quite rightly so - it'd be wrong to ignore and invalidate what went before. Now he's no K**n but why GB alone among managers deserves a fresh slate and everything wiped clean I'm not so sure. It's not the way football, or any other thing where you are rated on performance, works. Another analogy on this might be if I had several formal warnings at work, in a 3 strikes and out policy. If I had another one shortly after, just because it was a new academic year the management wouldn't say it only cumulatively counts as one as it's a new year but fire me. My previous conduct/performance would factor into the situation. Same way, Bowyer's performance should. Agree with you though, league 1 would be a disaster. Then the likes of Williamson and Brown would be our star players, and we'd be longing for the quality of Hanley and Lowe

Not sure who one of those clubs was but the other was Millwall. Now given he inherited a team massively struggling and had a terrible start, and given they were one of the smaller clubs and budgets in the league - probably one of the favourites for relegation, I don't think it's that massive a botch. Certainly not doing much worse than expectations there. But you know what, the issue isn't how others are doing with other clubs but how Bowyer has done with us. Boy, he can spot a player, but with the talented squad he assembled he has twice taken a team capable of playoffs to comfortably missing out. That's failure, and no matter how great Big Mick is or how crap Holloway is, the fact remain, independently, Bowyer twice underachieved with what he had. It'd be a logical assumption to assume he'll do so a third time, especially as the initial reports are we've the same problems as always. Personally I think we'll stay up. There's 2 clubs that are basket cases (Forest and Leeds) a club more insolvent than us (Bolton) and am not sure the clubs that got promoted are all that good. Certainly not last years Wolves and Brentford. Of them I reckon the latter may also suffer second season syndrome and not do so well. So that's around 7 clubs I reckon aren't that good who'll be competing for relegation. Make that 8 with Rotherham. Odds are we'll do better than three of them - or three will do worse than us - as there's still a fair bit of quality in the squad - Marshall, Conway, Kilgallon, Rhodes, the full backs when they get forward. In fact under another manager I doubt even with our much reduced squad we'd be worried about relegation. Shows how bad things are under Bowyer that we're contemplating it.

This is a huge problem and I reckon will destroy many lower league clubs in the next 50 years. When teaching one class in Carlisle all the lads were football mad but bar one odd chap supporting Spurs, they all supported man u and liverpool. They would go see the odd match, but not have any loyalty, nor any interest in season tickets - now or in the future - for Carlisle. Seeing the most obvious source of the next generation supporters not supporting Carlisle makes me wonder how the club will attract enough loyal and regular customers in 50 or so years time. Agree - its thoroughly depressing and destroys any notion of competition - which in turn defeats the purpose of playing.

Agree - although think it will end up that way. Millwall are a pretty rubbish team, but then so are we. They're physical and they're the type of teams we struggle most against. Having said that we've been in decent form of late. Both teams need something to stay up but aren't favorites for the drop. All in all it's got draw written all over it. Having Kaz back will be a huge boost. He holds the ball up well and tries to play it about (overplays it sometimes) which is what's needed to beat Millwall. I also wonder if they'll struggle with the pace of King as they don't strike me as the most mobile of teams. I'd also like to think after being knocked out of the FA cup quarters by them, the players would be "up" for this one and want revenge... A draw wouldn't be a bad result and would edge us towards safety. 1-1 with Rhodes (who else) scoring.

Very sad to hear this. Didn't know Kelbo at all but his posts were always very welcome and insightful. Even on an internet forum - he will be missed. Much more so by his friends and family and my thoughts and prayers are with them.

Well no one comes out of this smelling of roses. In fact it's a poor do all round - unsuprising given our current situation. Goodwillie has been crap for us. Ok he's been played out of position a lot and not had a decent run in the team, but whenever I've seen him he's looked slow to the point of stationary, with little nous, not great technique and so unfit it's untrue. Added to his alleged antics on nights out - both here and before he came - it's hardly a resounding endorsement to play the lad. In any other time I'd say get shot of the lad. Not good enough and not worth the aggro. Having said all of that, even with these limitations it's not like we've loads of players better in his position.This if nothing else states what a shambles we've become. Despite all my reservations Goodwillie certainly is better than some lightweight, inexperienced no-mark from portugal, and that's obvious for all to see. 2 poor games from Edhino, an admission from the manager that Edhino isn't ready - yet still Goodwillie can't get ahead of him. It makes you wonder why? At best Kean is being incompetent, at it's worst i's deeply suspicious.

I don't know, Hughes might do ok if he picks the right club. Perhaps he could do ok Not saying it's a foolproof rule or anything, but I do think that a player's character can be one good indicator of whether or not they'd be a good manager. Hughes had a more controlled aggression to me, and Souness wasn't a bad manager either. I guess with them they seemed a lot more focussed in their aggression than say Dickov, who complains over every foul, throw in and contact with a defender. Do you really think he'll be a success? Ince was another one who didn't seem to have the right temperment (very easy to say in hindsight). His West Ham / United kit botch, the way he banged on about manure when he returned from Inter to Liverpool suggests there isn't that maturity with which to deal with situations. Sure people can change, and can suprise you, but I think stuff like this can help.

Am unsuprised about Short becoming a manager - even prior to his stint in Hungary. Managed to speak with him at a reserve game late on in his rovers carear and he seemed the management type - level headed, clued up and able to convey his thoughts. Dickov's a shock to be honest. He knows those leagues like the back of his hand but you can hardly say he has the right temperment to management. He'll be sent to the stand every other game - for disputing minor things like throw ins no doubt. Can't see him making it, especially as Oldham isn't an easy job.

I love the fact that there is just a picture of a City shirt with Santa Cruz's name and number on. The caption is brilliant - I couldn't find footage of Santa Cruz playing. It shows how astute Sam has been in the transfer window, getting rid of players just at the right time.

Firstly I hope the guy pulls through. As for the behaviour of our away fans, I have to say it seems two very different extremes. On one hand there was a diverse demographic at the game. There was a group of old ladies, as well as a fair few other representatives from the older generation, I saw several families as well as a number of father-son combinations at the ground. Having said that, you do seem to get a lot of lads who seem to be out on the lash. The first problem is standing. I was sat row 23 in the corner. From where we were the view was excellent, and no one in the rows om front of us persistantly stood. However, there were two large contingents standing. The first right at the front, and the second towards the back. Now I don't have a huge problem with people standing, providing you're not blocking others view, but doing it both front and back must have made it extremely difficult for those fans with children, who can't stand, to see the game. In fact there was one family who quite clearly must have struggled all afternoon and were hardly right towards the back. It seems that unless you hit the jackpot in terms of seating, anyone who doesn't wish to stand will be in for a long afternoon. Interesting to see the stewards so active in getting people to sit down. I assume it had something to do with the incident at half time (which I had no idea of during the game). Incidentally with such a presence of stewards I wonder how such an action like having a bin chucked about was able to happen. Another interesting feature I noticed - at times the away fans behaviour was more interesting than the game - was a group of lads who rather than watching the game, diverted their attention to bellowing and chanting obsenities at the policeman recording the fans on the video camera. Now I'm not wild about being recorded, but to spend the entire game hurling obsenities at the police or opposition fans seems like a waste of £25 to me. This is an unwelcome element at away games, I'm all for some banter, but fans trying to cause aggro/look hard we could do without.

Let's be honest, Benni could be class when he wanted too, but when he didn't want to - he offered little. A motivated and fit Benni is a massive asset, but it's clear neither is the case. Since Sam can't get the best out of him, and Sam's going to be here for quite a while I think, Benni's a bit of a waste of resources. In an ideal world, Benni would fulfil his undoubted talent and be the no 1 striker at rovers, banging in 10 goals and assits apiece each season from the hole position. Since that isn't going to happen, at least we will get some money for him and free up wages for the rebuilding project.

Agree, one of the few players I've had a decent length conversation with and you could tell he was pretty switched on and had a genuine love of the game, so it's not a massive suprise that he's got his shot at management. Just a bit of a suprise where he's starting out.

Spot on. Benni might be unfit, but he's the only striker who has that bit of magic and can be relied upon to stick the ball in the net. Loosing Benni would not help Sam win over the fans at all. This is my big worry. That we're left short up front. Equally depressing would be seeing 3/4 Heskey type forwards on the books as our strikers, big powerhouses who can do the physical side of the game, but struggle to score regularly. Not saing there isn't room for one of them in our squad, but the way I see it going, especially if Benni goes, is that we can kiss plan B goodbye altogether.

What a waste. Makes you wonder why players throw away their talent. I know if I had that amount of talent/potential I'd work pdh to make a good career. Looks like rovers youth got another one right, although maybe with better mentoring etc. who knows what could have happened.

I hope it's neither of these things but there must be a decent case for both explainations. I find it baffling that so many years of players have looked ok in the reserves (admittedly not the greatest standard) and then gone on to do very little. It begs the question what is going on at the acadamy. Unlike Rover6 I don't think giving them more of a run out is the answer. After all, I can't think of any who we've let go that we've regretted letting go. I just wonder whether all this promise, is unharnessed or a false dawn. I wonder whether with better coaching the likes of McEveley, Danns and the like would actually be squad players for us, giving us more of a togetherness and solidarity within the squad (not to mention helping the budget)? Byrom's another one, I'd forgotten about, yet was thought to have a lot of promise.

I'd forgotten about him. Looked ok the few times I saw him, and that he'd have the physique to tough it out in the lower leagues. Looking back I'm a tad suprised he hasn't done better. Likewise. Although he was always too inconsistent imo. Agree, this is a blast from the past. And I'm suprised at how fast they drop through the leagues. I mean if they were that bad, why did rovers persevere for so long with them? If they were that promising, why do they sink quite so fast?

Thanks for highlighting that. With regards to our game vs the dingles I've a couple of mates who are in the police in the Blackburn division, and for our derby game ALL police have to work that weekend, regardless of whether it was meant to be time off or not. Am liking the idea West Ham forfit their next game, surely this can't have a good effect on their preparations for it.

Looking at all the reports, both clubs, but West Ham in particular, really should be hammered - excuse the pun - for this. Firstly there was the racist chanting/noises, then there's the missiles being thrown, and then there's the pitch invasions. Any one of these things are rightly frowned upon and should bring heavy sanctions, but all three shows that the clubs had very little control on the situation. One such incident could be classed as unfortunate - the you can't stop everything argument - but all three makes you wonder what the stewards etc were doing. The same principle goes for the three pitch invasions. One's unfortunate, two's very careless, three... Has there ever been three pitch invasions in one game before? I can't recall that ever happening before, although I only started following football in the early 90s. I bet west ham being west ham get away with it though. They always do.

Very interesting. Of those the only one I know a decent amount (well something) about, bar Donnelly is Pidgeley. He's just moved to Carlisle having really struggled at Millwall due to personal problems. A lot of it in his case, from himself and the Carlisle manager (not that he's an authority mind) is that the taleny is there but the mental fortitude and application has been utterly lacking/messed up. This is only one case so not sure how far it can be extrapolated, but does add some weight to the argument that it's as much about attitude as talent. This becomes even more odd when you consider the current premadonna stereotype of the modern footballer, who's likes to party and spend their obscene amounts of dosh. Granted this to an extent is a stereotype but it does make you wonder how dodge a bad attitude must be to contribute to them slipping into obscurity. Kelbo - I've been saying that about reserve team football for years!

If Benni does that often enough then that'll be enough of a contribution from him, providing there are no more passengers in the team. Given the way our wide players in particular seem to work harder than average defensively for their positions, then I think we can accomodate Benni in the side, providing he is on form. Besides I think Benni can/does offer a bit more than goals. His link up play, when he's not trying to be too fancy can be really impressive, and hanging on the shoulder of the last defender can cause them to think twice about committing that extra man forward. Not saying he offers loads more, but he's not a total passenger.

Have to say regardless of his application/work rate Benni does the main job of a striker and sticks the ball in the back of the net. (His fitness and thus his professionalism is a different matter.) He's never going to do the running around job, even when he was on fire for us in his first season. But if he can get himself fit and sharp we have a real predator and finisher in our team. To me on ability he's easily our second best striker by a mile, possibly even our first. In form any team outside of the top 4 would want him in their team. He has the quality to create something out of nothing, against any opposition, including top quality ones, which is needed in the premier league. Sure it's dangerous to rely solely on this, especially with his attitude, but with our other striking options we wouldn't be. For what it's worth, with Sam at the helm, competition for places and it being a world cup year - in South Africa no less - I can see Benni having a stormer of a season. All the motivators seem to be in place. And when the guy is on form he's dangerous to play against and will get you goals.

Regarding Ferguson's ability didn't someone connected with the club - maybe Parkes - place him in the best rovers 11 he'd seen, saying he was one of the most talented individuals he'd seen? Or am I just making that up? Bit torn on this one, not least cause he's a pillock. He does seem to have ability, and it's a good price. Mind you, if Hughes who kept Bellamy and Savage and the like in line struggled to man manage Ferguson, I think anyone would struggle to, as several rangers bosses have found out.

I'll add my congratulations too, never thought he was good enough to cut the mustard at a big championship team like sheff utd.