Another week, another loss, and still we haven't dropped down the table. QPR are in competition with us to see if they can go on a worse run, Bolton are ensuring that there is only one relegation place left, whilst Millwall, Reading and Rotherham are all still 7 points below us with inferior goal differences. This means that all 3 teams need to win 3 of 6 (or 7) to overtake us, without us doing anything and QPR need to get out of their slump before us. I know we're poor but all 4 of those teams doing well enough to overtake us - no chance. TM is a very lucky man there's so many poor teams. Edit - also looking at the top end of the table the top 2 teams Norwich and Sheff Utd have not had huge budgets and any real advantage over us (other than no fruit loop owners) so the idea we're automatically bound to be lower table fodder is horse manure. The fact Preston and Bristol City have also had decent seasons and made a push for playoffs is further evidence that there's no inevitability about us being a lower table team. Sure it may have been a bit much this season, but it is not ludicrous to look up as well as down. Top 6 Premiership mini-league the championship is not.

To be honest I blame Kean, Coyle and Venkys for this too. After seeing dishonesty and obvious dodgy dealings flaunted through the club, a chap who a) clearly isn't like this, and b) has something positive to his name (the only positive thing since Venkys rocked up) is bound to get a well of goodwill. Just in comparison to the above, he is head and shoulders above them, and this if nothing else makes him bomb proof. Problem is whilst TM is head and shoulders above the aforementioned, he's still inept and it is going to cost us big time over the next 6 months.

Some reflections/conclusions from today's match: 1) We can't write off our academy players based on this season. Raya's made a fair share of errors but today showed he has talent, and the potential to be a quality keeper. Today showed he has got ability, and isn't a duffer worth writing off (I think there have been other occasions when this has been shown but today is a clear example of it.) Given he's been singled out by the manager, and has to play with some absolutely comical defenders, I'm not surprised there's been a few clangers in there. A much fairer assessment could be made under a proper coaching set up, with a decent defense in front of him, and a team that doesn't invite continual pressure, as to Raya's actual level. The same could be said for Nayambe, Lenihen and Travis too. They've all shown promise and potential, but the current set up doesn't allow them a fair evaluation imo. 2) Square pegs round roles. Bennett had a shocker but let's be honest when he's set up to be one of the key attacking talents, he always was going to struggle. Bennett has his uses, especially his engine, which as one of the 2 more defensive mids would allow him to shine. However, when the onus is for him to be one of the main attacking midfielders he was never going to come out with any glory. Armstrong hasn't the physical presence or ability to do anything other than watch the game go by, so along with Rothwell there is a lot of pressure on Bennett to create, which has never been his forte. Even playing Smallwood/Evans at centre mid - smart move, because Stoke have a ferocious scoring record of late - was going to make it an even tough ask for Bennett to create because the 3 would get no support from the 2 behind them. I'd imagine Bennett as one of the 2, or even one of the 3 with Dack and Rothwell as the 2, (especially with Travis and Reid behind them) would see Bennett make a much better contribution to the game. Likewise, Smallwood and Evans together are just going to drag each other down as both offer similar abilities, making their lack of attacking prowess even more pronounced. Our team may be hapless but TM is making it a lot more apparent with some awful selections and combinations. 3) Plan B doesn't exist Now it's fair to say Plan A hasn't worked for a while, but the problem is there's no Plan B. Change the formation? Hard to go 2 up front when you only have one Championship level striker. Change the style to playing it along the ground - a decent striker who suits that game plan is needed for that to work. And more creativity than just Dack or Rothwell in the hole. Pace down the wings - would help if we actually had Chapman in the squad. 3 centre backs, we have only 3 in the squad and they're all injury prone. 4-2-3-1 is really not working, but there aren't too many viable alternatives. Mainly because we don't have the players to do so. Well played Tony. 4) Short term or long term? No youngsters played till we're safe - not thinking about the future until we've got the magical 50 points (even though we aren't in any danger of going down but still let's run with it). So if short term wins are the order of the day why isn't Reid in the team? He's shown himself to be our best centre mid so why not put him in the team if it's all about getting points. And if we're not because he won't be here in the future, then why not throw in a few more youngsters for development. What TM says and what he does is totally contradictory - and whilst I've debated on other threads if this shows him to be a good man or has less morals, the very best interpretation is he's lost the plot. Overall another worrying defeat as the team spirals downwards. 4 from 33 is an appalling record and Stoke have been poor of late, so no way can this be seen as anything other than a terrible result.

Nah, they'd still need 3 out of 6 AND Wigan, QPR and Reading need to do better than us. Not going to happen. It TM was unlucky when we went down that such a high amount of points. This time he's very lucky that there are so many poor teams.

I always thought the adage was don't change a winning team not a losing one. Completely upside down view by TM. The other batnuts thing about it all is if it's to avoid relegation then TM hasn't checked the table recently. 1 relegation place left. On what planet are Millwall and Rotherham going to both make up 10 points on us? Wigan, QPR and Reading - none of whom are good or on particularly great runs are still comfortably below us too. Relegation is just another excuse to play his favourites. I'm sure if we win it'll change to got to keep the lads in who have performed well unless their name is Joe. The inmates are running the asylum these days and that can only go 1 way.

The 4 points from 30 may suggest otherwise. The last 2 windows being fluffed too... Heck I've written a list on another thread - have a look at that for all the reasons I think he's on a downward spiral. Granted we had a good Jan with 4 wins (I think?) But overall 2019 and the back end of 18 has seen a lot more downs than ups. There'll always be a few blips or positives even with a good/bad manager - beating Manure under Kean and Dalglish's last few league games before we got promotion are 2 blips in trend that immediately spring to mind, but I don't see any compelling evidence that we are heading in the right direction. And not sure stats or events overall back up a positive outlook.

I bet with a decent manager organizing them, and ideally, but not essentially a proper leader at centre back, both Lenihen and Nayambe would improve vastly. Both have a fair amount of talent, but are being dragged down and not pushed to their best by the current set up.

Also worth mentioning Cardiff were awful. Beyond awful when Warnock took over and one of the weakest teams in the division. The question of managers' performances is of trajectory and is it upwards or downwards. Hard to say TM isn't on a downward spiral at the moment.

A team which haven't scored in 4 and are mid-table with nothing to play for. Really should be looking and expecting to win this one. That said, I'd imagine a draw. I'd also expect them to break their scoring duck, but given we're normally good for a goal and they aren't prolific then a draw is probably on the cards. Incidentally having seen our run in, it would be criminal not to get at the very, very least a further 6 points. I'd imagine a win vs Bolton, then draws vs Stoke, QPR and Swansea, although all 3 of those games are pretty winnable. I think 6 is the bare minimum we should get and any less than this is a huge failure.

Perhaps should have posted this in this thread instead. Why TM should go.

Not sure I buy the "we've got mid table/survival and consolidation was what we were aiming for so all's good" argument. Let's say you hire me to drive you to the airport. The first half of the journey is great, and I even know a few shortcuts so we're getting there quicker than you had hoped. But then half way through I suddenly have a few near misses with other cars, almost cause collisions, run a couple of red lights, and don't use my mirrors. No harm happens, but it's hairy. Not only that after the first near miss I acknowledge I need to watch the traffic better, pay more attention, and check my mirrors, but then continue to do none of that, and the journey continues into chaos, but fortunately no damage. Oh, and I have glasses to help me see the road better, but I only put them on when I'm struggling. You're telling me you'd get in the car with me again after that? What confidence would you have for me to get you safely back from the airport when you need a ride home? Which is why TM must go. Not because this season we're not where we should be but because of the manner of it. The 4 points out of 30. The blind stupidity of only having 3 injury prone centre backs on the books. The exclusion of Rothwell, and to a lesser extent Chapman, the continuation of favourites in the side regardless of how well they play, The only having 3 genuine goal threats in the team. The awful interviews of absolute horse manure (like Mulgrew's hamstring went because I shouted at him being my favourite). Wasting £7 million on Bereton, Not signing players who fit a system, I ask on what basis can there be confidence that TM is going to do better next season? Give him a transfer window to sort it out? He's not sorting out the little things he can adjust week to week. He's not adjusted anything in the last 2 transfer windows. The only argument with any validity as I see it to TM staying is they'll get someone worse and that's a genuine fear and possibility imo. But let's not confuse that with TM being a good manager. A decent bloke possibly, though his comments of late have got me wobbling a bit on that. A good manager - not a chance.

Another of many holes in TM's theory is that Armstrong offers the square root of naff all defensively yet keeps his place in the side. Not sure how he can call for defensive wingers and play Armstrong . And Armstrong hasn't contributed much to the attack either. We've a manager utterly stuck in playing favourites and it's costing us big time.

Yes agree that is frustrating and worse contributes to people forgetting the good work he did last season. At least with Smallwood he was very useful and even now is an upgrade on Lowe. Sadly limited defensive mids are a shoe in in our team. Still think there's a role for Smallwood as a squad player coming on to close games out but it is not the role TM has for him.

Smallwood was a good signing for last year, just what we needed someone to get stuck in. Not sure he is championship quality bar more than a squad player but he was signed last year to get us promoted which he contributed well to. Bell I'm torn on and perhaps not the best example to use. Think he has the attributes but performance and concentration wise - plus reports on here - are mixed at best. Perhaps Armstrong this year would be a better useage. Davenport I used because he hasn't played or contributed anything. Same with Chapman. Am sure he has some talent but if they can't or won't be allowed on the pitch they're a poor signing just wasting money. That we are differing over examples used rather than the point itself points to how bad recruitment is.

I think the most pertinent question is do people have have faith TM can rectify our problems ? Given how long it took to get us up and running last season, his transfer dealings over the last 4 windows combined with a beyond absymal run of form, I'd say no. Any manager can have a run of good or bad results the question is whether looking at the wider picture you feel they can turn it round. I've not seen enough evidence in 3 years that TM can. For that matter what manager has recovered from such a shocking run aside from teht bigger picture stuff (appreciate that's another argument though!)

The fact that 5 games ago Rotherham needed 4 wins and they're still in that situation suggests they ain't going to do it. Am certain we'll continue to slide down the table and not get relegated. Just checked Millwall are also 10 points below us too so both would need to have a heck of a run of form for us to go down. No way both bad teams will do so. Add in there's a few other teams still below us - Reading, Wigan - who somehow we still have a 6/7 point lead over so there's also the possibility their form won't overtake us with so few games too. All in all there's enough dross for us to sleep soundly this season.

S8 and Blue - yes TM's recruitment has been appalling. How many players have improved/enhanced the team? I can think of 5 - Smallwood Downing and Dack last season and Rothwell and Reid this season. From 4 windows that's a pretty appalling record. Add in one of those players isn't even used now properly and another is out on loan and only shone because of injuries and you are really looking at poor recruitment. You could also consider how many players are decent but for every Bell or Antonsson - both of whom stretch the credibility of decent - there's a Samuel or Caddis or Davenport. When you have so many flops and you're in 2 minds as to whether the decent players are actually decent you have to question his recruitment. Then there's the expensive flops running at one a season - funds we can't really afford to waste. Last season was Whittingham this season it's Bereton. It shows even when given money TM can't spend it well. So yeah TM is terrible at recruiting.

I'd be interested to see how many fewer goals we'd have conceeded without Mulgrew at the back. I warrent it's comfortably more than the 11 he has scored.

I mean this whole 4 from 30 points, how are people defending it exactly? How are people not seeing the warning signs in it? It's not as if we were all conquering before hand either...

Start as we mean to go on. Our results say TM has lost the plot. Our performances say it too. Sadly our owners don't see this. Mind you they're the bigger problems themselves.

Not too disheartened Bennett's in centre mid. I think that's his best position and he can do a good job there. However there are huge question marks about how Conway is in the side (and Mulgrew for that matter) and how Rothwell isn't. More to the point as others have pointed out the fact we haven't a single non academy new player in there makes you realise what a balls up the last 2 windows have been.

Have we really got someone championing a Rovers player acting in such a way that by choice he doesn't give his best or fulfil his potential for us? Words fail me.

The goal posts on here keep moving - it's just a job, everyone's entitled to a social life, other players do it, it's not different from what we may do for jobs, he's doing ok at work so it's fine what he does privately, he's not been in trouble that recently... Not sure one of those reasons washes with me as a fan, nor with a top professional and it shouldn't with a manager either.

I wonder if I and others would answer differently if we had a more competent manager at the helm? Evans and Williams excepted I reckon a good manager could get a tune out of most of our players. Admittedly not all would fit into their system and some shipped out due to this and bring average but I wonder if a canny manager could do more with what we have then we think? For example Mulgrew in a back 5 with Bell and another wing back might bring out the best in the players, or Smallwood alongside a passer/dynamic midfield partner pr Bennett in a role focussing on running. Maybe we have more decent pieces than we think for the right manager and system but with the wrong manager and a flawed system the average players are looking worse? Not saying big work isn't needed in the summer - I think it is - just thinking aloud or whatever the internet equivalent is whether such a clear out and rebuild would be needed with a more competent manager.

Who indeed? In fairness Byrne was pretty poor when he was with us but if we were asking a number 10 to play cm he was hardly going to shine. More black marks all round for Clueless.