If actions not helping the team warrants your exclusion from the team it begs the question how Raya, Evans, Williams, Mulgrew, Bennett, Armstrong, Dack and many more are in the side. Pathetic comments.

It wasn't a criticism, just a disagreement with a comment! I think we think very similarly regarding our attack, my point was the stats seem very misleading in this manner - a bit like Lowe's pass completion rate for example - as attack is a huge problem despite what the stats say. Agree too that its a huge summer. If only TM had another couple of windows available to sort it out instead of just this summer...

Agree with lots of this post but less so about our attacking prowess. I think scoring goals is a problem although am surprised by those stats which are more positive then I thought. The reason I think our attack is and will be a problem is as follows: 1 There are only really 3 goal threats in the team, Graham, Dack and Mulgrew. That is a problem of itself before you consider things even further. There's no other player you would expect 5+ goals from that is an issue. 2 One of those attacking options causes just as much problems for our defence as he does support our attack. Has he scored or cost us more goals - difficult to say, but regardless it's not a great position to be in. 3 Looking to the future Dack is most likely off and age will catch up with Graham at some point - we could be left with even fewer goal threats. 4 I think our lack of attacking ability/creativity/ball retention makes the defense worse as it just invites pressure on the defence. Teams get so many chances in part imo because we rarely occupy them defensively. Even when we have the ball they're generally not pressed to defend as we play it about our back line. 5 There's been numerous games and reports when we didn't capitalise on our domination to get a goal. Brentford we should have been 3 up, early games Vs Reading and Millwall also spring to mind of times we couldn't kill teams off and get deserved wins. Other than Wigan how many times have we scored 3 goals - very few I think. 6 Finally point number 1 again considering the rest of the squad. Ok appreciate this is kind of the same thing but when you have a midfield of Evans, Bennett etc you ain't going to get many goals. None of our other strikers really have many goals in them either - couldn't see any breaking double figures for the season. Don't get me wrong the defence is appalling and a huge problem for us. However I don't think our attack is up to much either and probably makes our defensive issues even more serious.

£7 million aside - which I appreciate is a.factor, as are the undercurrents of who brought him and why - but on ability alone would anyone really want Bereton to stay?

Smallwood stays for me. Unlike Evans he gets stuck in and actually disrupts attacks. Far from my first choice cm but definitely a player i'd want in my squad. Feel there's a lot of players in the right roles in the correct system with a good manager might not be top quality (even for this division) but would do very well. Bennett and Bell and Armstrong all spring to mind in this category.

Not convinced TM would spend it wisely even if he somehow got all the money...

Future is the key word here. It's not about a bad run or a few (ha!) adverse results - it's about our future and the fact that throughout this season and last that TM has clearly shown he cannot build on what he has. 4 good signings in 4 windows is not enough. Poor formations and players regularly out of position is criminal, as is the unbalanced squad. Most of all regardless of how good or bad the last few seasons have been is the question of whether the plot has been lost. Souness offered us way more than TM yet lost the plot by the end, and I suspect we've seen similar with TM this year - out of ideas and out of control. Get rid now. Dack will probably still go but having someone who could actually spend the money decently would prevent our utter demise.

Yeah, when you put it like that. One position of neglect is criminal. Two...

Why are people surprised about the Football League not doing anything regarding all things suspect, iffy and potential conflict of interests? My impression was they are there to shove such issues under the carpet or smooth them over...

Agree the odds of us going down we're miniscule before and they have only improved. 4 from 9 is a bigger ask than 4 from 11. Also we've seen Wigan and know how poor they are and proved we're going to scrape a few more points upon the way. No chance at all that all 4 teams will have excellent finishes to the season

On reflection I think the biggest problem is that TM can't develop a team and is diabolical at doing so. The team that went down with - TM had very little opportunity to do anything other than to work with what he had. The results was ok - we got more points per game than we had under Coyle, we had a dodgy Huddersfield team helping one of our rivals, and we went down with a ridiculously high number of points. Had TM been appointed even a couple of games earlier, safety probably would have happened. Yes, he made mistakes and was too cautious, but it wasn't a terrible showing - a decent fight. Second season - promotion. Of that only 3 - arguably 4 until Lenihan became fit - of the first 11 needed replacing. TM did well to get Smallwood and Dack to be midfield enforcer and creator The majority of the team that won the division though, was already in place. Graham and Mulgrew's goals, the defensive solidity, Bennett covering well in 86 positions. Most of the other players he brought were bit part players, bar Downing, or flops. In fact he didn't have a proper left midfielder all season, looked thin at cb, and cover for both Dack and Graham was limited. Point is that we did well, but most of the pieces were already there, and the problems that needed additions, TM couldn't recruit solutions for. A case in point being the Whittingham fiasco - had Evans not done ok and Bennett well there we would have really struggled to have enough players at cm too. Problem is come season 3 those squad players who could get by in league 1, were always going to struggle a division up. This is made all the more difficult given that not a single player has come in who has improved the first team bar Reid. Add in the deficiencies within the squad - adequate cover at cb, adequate cover for Graham, a left midfielder, Basically TM has only really been able to use what he has got, with only a couple of decent signings in between. Thus when areas have needed improving, it hasn't happened. If you exclude Reid, it's as if the last 3 windows haven't really happened. Maybe you could make a case for Armstrong, but he hasn't really improved the team much either on reflection. By now the squad needed a few key additions to make them competitive and balance out the squad but TM seems incapable of doing that. 4 big successes in 4 windows is a pretty poor return for all his transfers. I'm not sure if it's chicken and egg, whether we have imbalances in the squad because TM can't recruit, or because TM doesn't recruit well we have the imbalances. Either way his inability to do anything developmentally and only work with what we've got is always going to let you down when you take a step up. For me, this weakness, and TMs successes all come into this pattern of only being able to work with what he has, and being poor in the transfer market thereby being unable to improve or balance a squad. For this reason I think he has to go.

Whatever the correct interpretation is it is not good for Rovers: If - and this is most unlikely - the injury has been caused by TM having a go at Mulgrew, it shows even more so that Mulgrew really isn't made of good stuff and can't cope with pressure; further evidence that he is finished and needs replacing. If it's Mulgrew's way of getting out of pressure by being "injured" again it shows he isn't captain material or the type you want leading the dressing room. Given how injured he was under Coyle but then how ok - in the same season - under TM Mulgrew was then this would be my leaning on the whole situation. Pressure goes on, Mulgrew gets out. If TM genuinely thinks this caused an injury or is using this as an excuse to protect Mulgrew - my word, we have a manager who has lost the plot. So the way I see it, is it's yet more evidence that either the manager, our captain, or both aren't really fit for purpose. Not a good place to be in really.

Not at all. Millwall are oñly 1 point above Rotherham, and Reading are still 8 points - just under 3 wins - behind us. It'd take Reading at least 3 or 4 games to overtake us if they keep picking up points , which is a big assumption. Millwall's form is as bad as pure, Rotherham's little better since they can't play us every week. Both stunningly unlikely to overtake us even if Reading - and it is an if - do manage to keep up their form.

Totally agree which is why he has to go.

I'm happy to acknowledge Bowyer's skill at getting good players. Getting the best out of them was another matter and one he didn't achieve. Not sure you can have him as a brilliant spotter of talent without acknowledging he didn't do enough with it. Either the players he got weren't so brilliant or he wasn't so great as getting a tune out of them. Incidentally Bowyer had his blind spots. Shoehorning Lowe into the team, Brown replacing Gestede for some games. I'm no fan of TM as a manager but don't think Bowyer is the answer.

He also couldn't get a team with Rhodes, Gestede and 40 odd goals in them both promoted , even with an excellent supporting cast. He also thought Steele, Lowe and Brown were footballers. Higher standards needed.

I'd argue the bad defending comes in part because we're so poor going forward. The opposition are rarely occupied by our good play. And if you have the ball the opposition can't score. Not that I disagree that our defensive game and personnel need upping whatsoever! Agree with assessment of our defenders although am perhaps a bit more favourable to Nayambe. Bell may well be better further forward up the pitch. I think the main thing for me is what evidence is there TM can turn it round? And I'm struggling for answers there.

My fear too. By which we could really be in the mire and be an even less attractive option.

Thing is if you make the change now it's a good time to do so not just because we're bobbins but because we're still super unlikely to go down. It'd give the new manager a few "free" months to do an assessment of what is going on. However I likewise think we won't make a change.

Yes this is a hell of a problem. Debate if we're at that stage or not just yet but we can't be far off. Can't score or defend , budget spent badly. There really should be some tough conversation going on between CEO and manager but I can't see that happening.

A very kind summary imo. I think we are just as shambolic going forwards. How many chances diner create? How many goals do we actually score? As for bringing in players I'm not sure that's a skill of his either. I'd add Smallwood to the successes as he was what was needed last season and arguably Bell last season too but on the flip side Rothwell isn't really used by TM thus rendering him a bit of a pointless signing (I likewise think he is good.) Problem is there's been just as many if not more duffers being signed. Last season only Dack and Smallwood really contributed significantly to our success and this season very few signings have improved the team. Add in his more expensive signings have been hit and miss Whittingham and Bereton spring to mind and I'd say his record in the transfer window is sketchy at best. Likewise bringing in new players. Travis I'll grant you but Nayambe has played second fiddle to Caddis and Bennett at times and Lenihen was already in the team. A great bringer of youth through is equally not something TM has excelled at. Indeed given how the last 2 seasons have planned out I'm surprised Wharton hasn't made it in fully. Not trying to have a go - there's a lot I agree with. Have been banging on for ages that the balance is wrong - especially no attacking left midfielder - and the transfer budget should have been spent on improving 2 or 3 positions, including a centre back. Personally though I feel TM has made more than a few mistakes and worst of all has now completely lost the plot and control of the situation.

Yes. This is spot on. Thing is other than being a decent bloke, and recent interviews suggest that is waneing, what does TM offer. Bowyer was pretty limited too but at least he could spot a player to sign. This season we seem to be regressing week after week and I cannot think of many grounds for optimism. Add in the problems from the last 2 years - going down and struggling to adjust to this division- and there seems a lot more bad than good. Granted he got us promoted and had a tough deal the season before but we deservedly are in the rut we are in and have seen a myriad of mistakes. Worst of all it seems to be getting worse and I'm reminded of Souness loosing the plot. Despite all his great stuff for us by the end Souness had lost it to the point it was unrecoverable. Same has happened here imo. It doesn't undo the positives TM has brought but the reality of needing a change is the same.

Disappointing but predictable. The wheels have well and truly come off. Thing is I think these players could do better despite the holes in the squad. However with current management and tactics we are a certainty to go down next season. Get the players performing better - not seen it yet. Buy better players - 3 or 4 successes in a dozen transfers suggest otherwise. TM has to go not because of this season but to ensure next is not a disaster.

Didn't they do similar with the Portsmouth collapse in the Premiership? Seem to recall them encouraging the sale of a player to a club which offered the most cash up front rather than the most money overall.

Great post highlighting how much of the defensive fragility is down to management and why we don't need a complete overhaul in defence/the team. Yes, we definitely needed strengthening in defence but a complete overhaul isn't necessary. With good coaching Lenihen and Nayambe are good enough for this level and I reckon but am less certain the same goes for Bell and Rodwell. A tough centre half would improve things and better cover for the full backs would really strengthen the team but it's not like TM has nothing to work with. Add in we've some solid defensive midfielders - Travis, Reed, Bennett and for certain situations Smallwood and it's hard to argue it's not poor management causing our defensive woes.