We're on a good run, Bolton have off field problems and are on a poor run, I really feel we should be winning this. Am quite looking forward to going and seeing the lads in action, especially since we've pulled ourselves out of that awful run. A few thoughts: - Am not sure what the point of the fit and proper test is. If being banned from owning a club before doesn't constitute unfit and improper I'm not too sure what would. Our football league are better suited to running the administration of a South American dictatorship of yesteryear rather than a sporting competition. - Now Bolton are actually relegated that could take the pressure off them and free them up a bit. I've a feeling their confirmed relegation could work against us. - That said we really should win and win comfortably. Definitely a game for Bereton to start. I don't think he's any good but if a dead rubber match against a team already relegated that leaks bucket full of goals isn't the time to try and get something out of him, I don't know when is. 3-1 Rovers

Thanks for a well reasoned counter argument. I don't think I am solely negative, although I'll admit I am not TM's biggest fan. (In the Tony's transfer record I give him praise for his positive signings for one.) I think the point I'm trying to make is an evaluation of his positives and negatives make me sceptical that he can take us further forward. Can't argue with most of your positives - the stabilising, looking up instead of down, and I would add in got rid of most of the dross too - Steele, Feeney, Lowe, Stokes - he's got rid of some corkers. Thing is, I'd say your post for Tony, actually says more about his weaknesses than his positives. - "signed gems as well as flops", and "attacking flair and promise including hopefully Bereton." Am really not sure how you can class Bereton as promising much less attacking flair. You've basically put his biggest and most expensive mistake, as a hopeful positive! Bereton blew most of our transfer budget and looks nowhere near ready, how can that be a positive? - also on the gems as well as flops - I'd say that good managers generally have 2 stats in the transfer market: 1) they get more right than wrong, and 2) they get the big expensive ones right. Big Sam, Hughes, even Bowyer (who I don't rate that highly) all had more plusses than minuses and got the expensive transfers right. TM with the best will in the world is more 50:50 and has got his most expensive signing wrong the last 2 years. - the attacking flair that you mentioned, 2 of whom have hardly played this season, and one still isn't. I guess you could say TM is learning - albeit slowly - now Rothwell is in the team, but there are question marks as to why it has taken so long. I think this shows TM isn't a disaster of a manger, as he does learn from his mistakes, but isn't a great one as it takes an age for him to do so. His time in league 1 with us to me followed a similar pattern. It took him quite a while to get to grips with it. A good manager gets to grips with things a lot more quickly, which is another reason I feel we'll not progress under TM. - "his job is to find the right style of play to get the best from them" - perhaps your most damning statement of TM. The fact he hasn't got a style yet after 2 and a half years in the job is beyond worrying. The fact we haven't been signing players to fit said style or haven't worked the style out, again shows a massive lack of planning and nous. I get Rome wasn't built in a day but no good manager is still looking for his style 2 and a half years on. Take Hughes for example - first half season uber defensive, aggressive and stay up, and then a more expressive but still aggressive game from his first full season onwards. Big Sam had us going long from day 1. Top not have a system in place 2 and a half years on is pretty criminal. Don't get me wrong he is a decent manager, which is a lot better than most we've had. His mini-runs prove he's not terrible. He does learn (albeit slowly) he can get some good players in - compared to chancers like Coyle and Ke*n he's streets ahead. Problem is for me ok isn't good enough and I don't think that's what we need to move us forward.

1 posted a while back a car driving analogy that shows achieving the objective isn't the be all and end all. For brevity's sake if I drive you somewhere on time but had 3 near misses that nearly ended in crashes you wouldn't get back in the car with me. Objective achieved enough said is too simplistic and one we don't use in everyday life. 2 what makes you think he will get the right transfers in? His record is sketchy at best. Bereton, Whittingham, Harper, Hart, Caddis and more - there are zero guarantees the guy will rectify it in the transfer market. At best he has a 50:50 record. Is that what people are trusting in? 3 assuming TM does get the right pieces what makes you think he will use them properly? We've consistently had over the last 2 years players played out of position, talented players not being played, favourites playing in poor form, others dropped for only a few mistakes and singled out publicly. Again what of this makes you think TM will improve us with this kind of performance. I should point out points 2 & 3 are facts. There have been transfer flops. There have been players kept in during horrendous form and others scapegoated. There have been players played out of position. The facts are pretty damning and I really hope TM goes before losing the plot overshadows the positives.

But not a great job either. Not a good job. Decent yes, but he hasn't really excelled anywhere since. Look at Wolves, given how a lot of teams with less investment have done, to have them plodding along in the championship wasn't anything special. A good manager would have done much better with them. Likewise how many doomed posts did Big Sam take on and succeed in? Sunderland and Palace for two. I don't think he's bad, but I don't think he is good or warrants the positive reaction he gets.

Looking for negatives. Just one genuine question - how is it fair or good management to call out and drop Reed and Nayambe, yet not Bennett, Mulgrew, Smallwood etc.? That's not looking for negatives those are simple facts. Do you think they are positive actions and comments?

I think these posts sum up my frustrations and worries the most really. It's one rule for one, another for others. It strikes me as a manager scared of his senior players. Ultimately though, it's going to leave us stuffed, because there are a lot more players out of the clique than in it, and it allows a half dozen players to coast along, which is very dangerous place to be. It's probably already cost us Reed, and possibly Rodwell as well (although I'm not too impressed by him at cb). I think the comments, and what lies behind them, as much as the results are beginning to get me worried as to which direction we'll go in under TM. I'm sure all good managers drop players when they're not performing - can remember Souness doing it with Flitty, Hughes with Savage, and that's just off the top of my head. I'm less and less convinced TM is a good manager and like him less and less as a person. It's a shame, as the first couple of years he brought a lot of positives to the club and has done a fair bit for us. I fear now he's only going to sour and sully his time at Rovers.

That's interesting. A lot of quality in there, (and McCormack) so they're not bereft on decent players. Certainly no more than say NI who make a much better fist of things. Think only employing Scottish managers of late hasn't helped either. There's a lot of good quality managers out there and a bit of thinking outside the box and a foreign appointment may well be the way forward. When the likes of McLeish is a candidate for the job (regardless of the debatable issue he wasn't the best man for the job) you know you've not cast the net wide enough in your recruitment drive.

No way will Scotland go for any appointment which will upset the public after the muck up with McLeish. His record was utterly duff and he's only managed to get it lowered further, can't see him getting another job anytime soon. Lambert amazes me that he still manages to pull off jobs or get fans to like him when he does a sub par job - Ipswich haven't improved at all since he joined. That said I still look back and think he did a decent job with us, which shows he's pretty good at the PR if nothing else. Having said that he's really nose dived since leaving us, and I doubt he'll be getting another job away from Ipswich given his run of clear failures since us.

So last year I started a thread to evaluate our signings from last season and assess how TM had done in the transfer market. Now that the doom and gloom has lifted somewhat from the most awful run I've seen in my living memory (duration, results and abject performance all being criteria in that moniker) I thought it'd be good to see how people thought TM had done this year. Last year we saw a mix of some excellent signings who played a key part in our success (Dack and Smallwood) as well as a raft of flops (Harper, Gladwin) and a rather expensive flop of a marquee signing (Whittingham) leading to an overall conclusion of meh or at best ok. Now's the time to evaluate this season's crop of transfers. Please note: this is not about who TM didn't buy or his lack of signing players for certain positions, but evaluating what who he did buy. Fans and critics alike acknowledge we should have strengthened in January and should have strengthened the defense and I don't want this to be yet another statement of this, but rather get people's thoughts of how well he does when he actually buys players. I think this is especially pertinent given advocates of TM say give him the summer to sort it. That's only any good IF he can sort it in the summer. Last season's evidence was very 50:50 not inspiring confidence in TM undertaking a revamp of the squad, and below is my consideration of how he has done this year, to see what confidence could or should be placed in TM improving the squad. So my thoughts are as follows: Joe Rothwell - 8 Good cover for Dack, or much more preferably as attacking left mid, Eothwell also could play as one of the two sitting midfielders and drive forward more in my book. He's consistently been one of our best players when on the pitch and it's no surprise our mini-upturn in form has been because Rothwell has played. Didn't cost loads and has youth on his side, a really astute signing for TM. The only question is why it's taken so long for him to force his way into the first team... Reed - 9. Does everything I want from a deep lying midfielder. Sadly I'm not the manager. However he has looked a cut above and visibly improved the team when he has played, and also has versatility which is needed in a club like Rovers when we can't carry a huge squad. Perhaps that hindered him in getting shunted about, but as a quality player being spotted for a position we needed improvement in (I'm especially sick of Evans being in a Rovers shirt) was an astute buy. Shame it wasn't a loan to buy. Palmer - 3. Far too much of a show pony for my liking, and really didn't produce the goods for us at all. Given TM likes hard working defensive attacking wide players I do wonder how Palmer managed to start a lot on the right. Didn't work hard. Always tried one trick too many. Didn't make much happen. A right waste of space imo. I'm not convinced he's all that good as his better impact at Bristol seems to be as a super sub. A heck of a lot of talent, but the brains of a rocking horse, whether it was cover for Dack, the attacking right mid spot or super sub he failed on all 3 counts. He didn't look teachable to me either, and on performance and character seemed a heck of a flop. Shame as Bristol are showing that even a show pony has uses if managed properly, but goodness me not what we needed to improve the fist 11 and he didn't. Armstrong - 6 this was the toughest one to rate for me. I really think he has been poor out wide this season out wide, and hasn't contributed much at all in terms of goals or assists. That said I totally think he was a good signing at the time. He had pace, had bags of potential, fee was reasonable, versatile giving plan B as a striker and can operate on the wing, known to the club and performed well last season - definitely the sort of player we should have been signing. Bit gutted it's not worked very well, but hard to criticize TM for signing him. Rodwell - 4 Given he was brought as a defender this was a bad signing imo. Being marginally better than Mulgrew and Williams is not much of an achievement, and when you're first choice centre halves are both injury prone signing another injury prone one seems to make even less sense. We've not had any problems but had reservations about his attitude too, and whilst I'm not blaming him for the malaise of the last couple of months, he didn't strike me as the type to buck the trend there. Might have been decent as a defensive mid, but given we have a host of defensive centre mids he was never going to get a look in there. Mind you that's a pointless argument - he was brought as a defender, and he was really not the type of defender we needed whatsoever. Only saving grace was the deal seemed a sensible one. Chapman - 2 I quite liked the look of Chapman in his first spell, but what the hell is the point of signing a player you're never going to play and doesn't fit your system/tactics? I'm not convinced it's all injury related - which is why I'm not including Davenport in here, as I think that's injury related - given he played for Boro a few times. Given he doesn't trust the lad at all and won't play him this is a waste of a wage. Hopefully this trend can be bucked now we've achieved safety and Chapman won't prove to be a waste, but really what is the point of signing someone you won't play at all? Bereton - 0 Best till last, an absolute clanger on so many fronts. Firstly we utterly needed to not be reliant solely on Graham, so whoever came in had to be Championship ready. Bereton clearly isn't and therefore wasn't fit for purpose. I'm not all that convinced that he has that much potential either. Then there's the fee that's factored in. As a free or a million quid Bereton would be a poor signing. At £7 million, it's an outrageous failure. Put it this way, for half that amount we could have the chap who went to Villa (McGinn?) and Bauer. Not saying we'd have got them but just for value comparison purposes. To spunk £7 million on one player who has made zero contribution is an appalling waste of funds. It would have been a clanger back in the Premiership, now in the championship blowing 75% of our budget on a guy who can't get in the first team much less improve it is a horrendous mistake. It's big money for Rovers and has massively backfired. The only speck of light is he is young enough to improve but I am skeptical as to his quality and feel the pressure of a £7 million tag is going to be too much. Put it this way last time we spent similar money we got 20+ goals from Rhodes. Not sure how long it'll take Bereton to chalk up that many goals for us, if at all. So looking at it, again for the second year running it seems very hit and miss. The hits are good - Rothwell and Reid in particular. The problem is the misses are very bad too and have a significant impact on us. Worryingly for the second year running the most expensive signing has been an utter flop, with the downside this time being it took up most of our budget. Given the 50:50 (at best) transfer success, I'm somewhat doubtful as to TM's ability to turn things round in the summer. These are my thoughts, how about others?

Agree with your summary but if our team on the run we are on can comfortably beat them then you've got to think they're in bother.

Very worrying. But then what's to worry about, the lack of goals, the lack of clean sheets or the lack of points. Would feel a bit better if our manager wasn't lying or on cloud cookoo land thinking there were no problems. He can jog on and take Evans, Williams etc. With him

I said 6 points the other day. Draws Vs Stoke, Swansea and QPR win Vs Bolton. No point from Stoke game but QPR is winnable and Derby/Forest are inconsistent so will stick with 6.

Absolutely he takes credit for the wins, no argument there. However, I think it's naive to say there's no luck involved and we have a buffer solely because we have good solid wins. It currently looks like we'll stay up with fewer points than when we went down, which suggests we]re overall not improving, and a little fortunate regarding our position compared to performances. There's also the fact that there have been two abysmal teams this year leaving only 1 relegation place, which is nothing whatsoever to do with our ability. So yeah, i think there's been a good slice of luck for TM this season in our position.

Some interesting comments. Not sure I see what others see in Armstrong - I think he has potential, but I also think it's a fair way from being realized either up front or out wide. Strikes me currently as someone whose level is a bit above league 1 but below championship. However, like with many of our players, it's likely a better manager could get something from the "raw ingredients" of Armstrong, should he fit that style. As it is, his limited ability combined with our playing style of humping it long means it's another player whose weaknesses are highlighted. A genuine wide player like Chapman or Rothwell who can scrap a bit more in his place would both probably get more change from the current set up. Not sure I'd be planning on getting rid of Graham anytime soon. I think he would be great foil for any half decent strike partner in this division, and would also work fairly well if we got genuine wingers and some decent crosses in. I think it's a bit of a myth that we hump it long because Graham isn't that mobile. We hump it long because bar Dack there's scarcely a half decent pass among the midfield and defense. Time will catch up with him eventually and we do need to start thinking ling term about replacements - but blimey we've problems all over the shop, including getting some decent competition for him, before we even consider dropping him

Well some of the elements were more predictable than others. All our centre backs getting injured was blatantly obvious given their records. Some of the players haven't been up to it for years. Williams, Evans, Conway have all been past it for yonks. There were a lot of times last season we relied on the magic of Dack, Mulgrew and Graham to get us out of trouble in a number of games last season masking our lack of creativity. We had no proper left mid last season and looked unbalanced because of it. We had a raft of crap transfers last season - Whittingham, Hart, Harper - TM has form for poor transfers. Bereton has looked poor all season. Dack has had a playboy attitude since day 1. Now I grant you I couldn't see how we would could possibly have such a bad run - but mostly because it was so bad. But the signs were there we could go on a bad run and have been for a while. Shame TM in this regard managed to surpass expectations.

So what's going to change over the summer to change the downward trend? TM hasn't a great record in the transfer window, he isn't using what he currently has well and hasn't showed any desire to change things when not working. On top of this we've a terribly unbalanced squad after 4 windows, why will a 5th make things any better?

An incredible job? How? Genuinely curious as to what is incredible about it. Staving off relegation in his first season (although admittedly that wasn't an easy ask)? Getting us promoted with one of the biggest budgets and a lower championship level squad - it's a decent achievement, maybe even good, but it's hardly incredible. This season - not sure what is incredible or even that he has got the best out of it. Firstly a run of 11 games with only 1 win is nearly a quarter of the season, so not sure where the majority of the season comes in. Secondly, which players have looked at their best - arguably Dack and Graham , but who else? It seems a bit contradictory to say they're a poor squad and TM is getting the best from them. Getting the best out of average players to me seems to suggest Sheffield United, or even a Preston or Bristol City type scenario, not where we are at. Equally I'm not buying that TM has been surprised by how poor they are - he got to see the vast majority of them in the championship pre-relegation in action, as well as work with them for a year in league 1 to assess their level. I'll agree some elements of the squad are hogwash but if within his first 2 years of working with them (pre-this season) TM hadn't spotted the likes of Evans and Williams were duffers then we really shouldn't be employing him. Spunking the best part of £7 million plus and having no visible signs of improvement in the squad is also a pretty damning indictment of TM too. Also I'd respectfully argue that Lenihen, Raya, Nayambe, Rothwell, Dack, Graham, Reid are all more than adequate at this level, and if utilized properly there's a number of talents who could effectively do a role in a championship team/squad (Bennett and Bell for two). But the system, other personnel selected and glaring holes in the squad negates a lot of the decent talent available. All in all I struggle to see the incredible job TM is doing. We agree he has some absolute dross in the team - but that is his fault, he's had 2 years to prepare this season's team to an adequate level. But also he has got some good and solid players who can do a job. The problem is TM isn't savvy enough to utilize the good stuff at his disposal or get rid of the dross.

Fair enough. Thought they were just outside the play offs for a time, but could be wrong. Either way it shows we're not guaranteed to be lower table fodder.

Not at all. happily I don't see the other teams having enough stomach or ability to do enough either. Let's take the next 2 games: Norwich to lose at home to Reading and Villa lose away at Rotherham - very unlikely one or both happens. Plus both Millwall and QPR cannot both get 3 points. Worst case scenario is Millwall get within 4 points of us, but that means QPR are still below us and on an equally appalling run.In short can't see this round of fixtures throwing up a ton of problems. The week after I grant you the next round of fixtures (on the 14th) could go against us, but again Brentford and Sheff Utd are both good teams, and the chances of both slipping up isn't exactly massive. Add in that Stoke dispatched us today so may be ok against relegation candidates. None of these are bankers that the relegation teams are going to win, and again the chances of all 4 of the relegation candidate teams getting those wins aren't great. They're near the relegation zone because they haven't won many of these matches. Honestly I don't think in two games time we'll be in a much worse off position than we are now.

Answered in another thread but all 3 teams getting 3 wins from 6 and QPR rectifying their abysmal form isn't likely to happen. Just this week QPR play Millwall - both teams can't win and Reading play Norwich - very unlikely for a slip up, giving us another game's grace. The fight for the playoffs is also still pretty fierce which suggests (albeit no guarantee) that when the teams below us face teams fighting for the playoffs there's less chance of complacency/players being rested or a Huddersfield situation. I just can't see it, even if we are trying to claw ourselves into the relegation mix - we're going to fail at that too.

This is one of the things that really peed me off today. Just why? Even if we weren't going on performance levels, enough to give both the heave ho from the team, why did we need 2 defensive mids against a team that had not scored in 4 games? I'm not a big fan of TM worrying about the opposition, but in this case the evidence clearly showed there was nothing even to worry about. Or maybe he was looking longer term and worried about how prior to that spell they'd been one of the strongest teams in the division - hang on that's not true either. There was no reason whatsoever for this combination tactically or based on their performances. Also if he knew Dack was out - and I think we all know that was horse manure, but assuming it was true - surely lacking our most creative midfielder (when he can be arsed) suggested again we would need a bit more creativity in the middle. Then there's other inexplicable decisions. When our centre back goes off injured (what a surprise) why replace him with the reserve left back not the other centre half? Why slot Bennett at rb when Bereton came on, rather than keep on a proper full back? Clueless doesn't begin to describe it.

Not saying he's anywhere near on a level as those odious snakes but that is exactly the kind of comment with flawed logic that Coyle or Kean would make.

Our appalling run has lasted nearly a quarter of the season. in a 46 game season extrapolating our current form, and giving maximum points for the remaining 2 games, that would give us 22 points... (Or I'm really bad at maths!) This is not a poor run of form, this is where the team is at.

Comments like this make me wonder if TM is as "honest" as people say he is. Also even if true, don't a lot of clubs insist players stay and watch the game? (Could be wrong on this but am sure I read it somewhere.) No control over the senior players whatsoever.

The man management of Dack is another negative for TM - like he needed more. The sad fact is a fair number of footballers are muppets, and there have always been difficult players to manage since football was invented. Good managers can do it. It seems this might be another skill that TM lacks. His treatment of Mulgrew and other senior players backs up this concern.