Last paragraph is a bit of a low blow Matty. Not needed. First is a better question. I guess in terms of a proven track record over time he's less well-known. I guess to less interested owners and less interested fans he would be less known. Do a poll at Ewood last year and I reckon a fair chunk couldn't answer who was Swansea manager. I mean obviously you hope that for your club those doing the appointments have their fingers on the pulse so to speak and are aware of everyone known and less well known - and such a candidate would be on their radar - but we are also aware that's totally not the case with us or necessarily with other clubs.

1 That's the problem 2 That's a stackable statement. What an arrogant pancake flipper.

Personally am with Tyrone on this. I had heard of him but blimey he said relatively unknown. I don't think it's a wild inaccuracy to call someone who has only 2 years experience outside the top flight relatively unknown. In fact I'd say relatively makes nod to both his achievements and new status. I also think there's a fair bit of a certain poster misunderstanding the English language deliberately too..

When Paul sodding Ince has a better win-loss ratio than you, you know it's time to call it a day...

Finally caught up with WM. Mixed bag is the word. There was enough in there to be a one night classic, even with the usual bore fest from Reigns and Lesnar. Just a school of thought but you can do more than 3 moves each. And it's a bad shout to end the match right after the first interesting moment in the bout too. That's a main event? My word... There were some really strong matches, Bianca Vs Lynch was exceptional and the pick of both nights, whilst Styles-Edge and Rhodes-Rollins were also good. Charlotte Vs Ronda seemed a bit messy for me, though they worked hard. Logan Paul and Stone Cold put in excellent showings given their circumstances. So all in all there was a good night's card in there. Shame it was surrounded by so much dross and filler. I do wonder how WWE keeps going when so much of its product lacks good story telling and appeal. So many titles going to waste, so much under utilised talent. Maybe this is what you end up with due to a monopoly.

I'm not claiming to be the Almighty but I can tell you exactly how it is going to go. We will someone on the managerial scrapheap reject pile from a certain agency will get the job and we will continue to tank. The only uncertainty is whether that reject is TM of some other incompetent. Either way the slow decline will continue.

Gav that's a very one sided view on things! Firstly Bereton. As I said before I can't think of another player anywhere who takes up such a huge amount of the budget that is allowed to take over 3 seasons to become good. Could Rovers afford that? Clearly not. Not could, I suspect, most other clubs have such a huge percentage of their transfer budget do nothing for 3 years. That's not job done whatsoever. That's opportunities lost - although it's far from a washout given his goals have saved us this season. But a roaring success? Not at all. Armstrong agree - fantastic bit of business. Gally - fans know nothing about football? Everyone knows Gally is wasted out wide. So what does that suggest about TM if he keeps playing him there? That doesn't suggest he's the expert and we aren't. It suggests TM is a Muppet for doing so. Again, having such a big chunk of our transfer budget not really performing to the top level again suggests perhaps TM isn't the football genius he makes out. Yes plenty of players have improved under TM. That 3 you mentioned are leaving for free is criminal. Whilst most of this is on the world's most incompetent owners, the manager mist hold some of the blame given he must have some influence on things (e.g. the extension of the contracts over lockdown). Again continuing with the this shows he is an expert I could raise you the likes of Walton, Whittingham, Ayala, the players stupidly out of position, the players limited out of position, the Raya situation, the mid season collapses. He's far, far from an expert. For what it's worth I think he is an ok manager - which is much better than the usual standard here - who makes stupid, idiotic mistakes.and is his own worst enemy. I also think he is a dislikeable toad due to his comments. As for Forrest they have been a basket case club. As we when we came down show, spending doesn't always mean it's been spent well. They have had a huge turnover of players, tons of managers, no parachute payments, a meddling owner and general chaos. To get them firing like he has in such circumstances is very impressive. On Ishmael didn't he get Barnsley into the playoffs? That's more than TM managed with less resources and time. Also WBA were in the playoffs when he left. Is he a great manager? I'm not sure but I would have him over TM. As for the rest you mention, taking a snapshot at one moment is interesting - have Coventry and QPR had the time or investment TM has had? Have either been on the death spirals he has been at. I'll finish with this had TM had a run like he has had with us at either club he would have been sacked. That's how football works apart from at Ewood.

Tbf this was/is the year they should. With the barcodes money and the competence of promoted Brentford, there weren't many candidates for relegation. In fact it's only the utterly appalling appointment of Lampard that has dragged Everton into this mess and given them an out.

I think 8th is pretty much certain. Millwall, Coventry etc are all falling away and not sure Luton will stay the distance either. So top of the almost pile for Rovers. That's pretty respectable until you consider where we were at the turn of the year and how badly we have faded. I get teams running out of steam but in January? Utterly criminal.

Y'know I just said that who they needed to appoint was the much maligned Allardyce. Unpopular but you bet they wouldn't be in this situation.

I want some of whatever the Everton board were drinking when they appointed Lampard. Potent stuff.

On Bereton the point is he did bugger all for 2 seasons, ok at best for one and good this year. Is it really ok for a £7 million signing to take 3+ years to develop? Is it ok for that much of the budget see little to no return for 3 years? I'm not convinced that's ok for us. Also I cannot think of a single player who took up such a large percentage of the budget who was given 3+ years to come good at a club. As for Gally. Regardless of merits everyone and his dog - in fact everyone but TM - can see he's best down the middle. Regardless of how good he actually is/might be that he is played so badly out of position shows TM knows bugger all. If he's actually a good player TM is a Muppet for wasting him out wide. If he is a duffer then TM is doubly stupid for buying him and playing him out of position. Any roads TM doesn't come out well from these transfers.

The issue with this summer is actually one that has been year upon year in the making. We have relied on loans for so long that it always means we are starting 4-5 players down before we even start. Then there's the fact that we let a lot of out of contract players go last summer - admittedly of mixed quality - without really replacing them. As we have seen repeatedly, nobody is actually worse than somebody. Then there's not replacing Armstrong, the only permanent CB signed being an utter crock and you are looking at the issues coming to a head in spectacular fashion. The issue for me is we have always been relying on sticky plaster solutions to our problems. It's no way to build a squad.

Great post. Although it's not like we have failed off badly before or anything... Given its happened 4 years with the same manager surely he should be carrying the can for this. Only at Rovers would someone be bulletproof despite collapse after collapse.

Three thoughts on a depressing afternoon aside from the obvious: 1) Whilst I thought we would fly 2nd I'm shocked at how easily we have capitulated the playoff places. Shocking really for such a turn around. 2) It probably doesn't matter but a draw probably means Coventry won't catch us as they will run out of games given their form. Shame a few other teams will though. 3) I like our away kit. On the TM worst manager ever. Nowhere near. But I would say he is the most underperforming manager we have had. Coyle, Ince etc couldn't run a bath much less a team. Their best was not good enough. TM however. All his mistakes are rectifiable. Players out of position, terrible line ups that need rectifying at half time - if he got basic obvious decisions correct - which on occasion he has - rather than a who is crappest at right wing competition we would be so much better. It's his own stubbornness and overly high opinion of himself that holes us below the waterline. It's criminal. It really is.

Why is Coyle a degenerate? Utterly useless as a manager, yes. Completely out of his depth, and then some. But degenerate? Also think Coyle was dealt a worse hand that TM if I am honest, which combined with his ineptitude was a guaranteed disaster. And one thing for Coyle - his comments haven't been as bad as TMs by a long stretch. As for the manager not knowing whether his contract is being renewed. Facial from Venkys. Utterly clueless and classless. All that said the manager could perhaps aim to finish with a bit more than seeing the season out, even if just as an up yours to the owners. Get rid of the lot of them. TM, Venkys, Waggott they can all do one as far as I am concerned.

Indeed. Problem is it's what he does with the hand that isn't tied that frustrates the hell out of me!

Sounds like we have similar thoughts. Difference seems to be you seem a bit more sanguine/forgiving than me for the symptom that is TM.

Are you seriously trying to say TM doesn't shoulder any blame? Or at least a decent proportion of it? I mean I am with you, the owners are a much bigger problem - it's the reason the clown is still in post for starters - but to say TM is not really culpable is a stretch. I don't think Venkys forced TM to move Elliott to false 9 when he had been so effective elsewhere, or stick with Walton as gk no matter how poor he was. It is TMs choice how he uses his budget - irrespective of level - and whether to direct any of that towards bringing in a striker. It's TM with the tombola. It's TM who has been on the horror runs. Of course Venkys are a much bigger problem - TM is a symptom not the cause. But my word he's not half an unpleasant symptom of a terrible regime and has made a ton of mistakes.

I mean this is beyond stupid. With people leading busy lives online is a very quick and easy way of doing it. Another barrier to lower sales. It's almost as if they want to reduce the number of fans coming.

Let's not forget the other collapses here as well.

It's a good question and one that ties into our previous chat about whether the runs we go on skew opinions on the manager. Tbh I think it does make a difference as extenuating circumstances help show how good or bad - or perhaps even lucky/unlucky - a manager is. For example I don't apportion too much blame for our relegation to TM because of circumstances. Likewise if we just scraped playoffs now after the position we were in at the turn of the year - a bit like with the negative runs - I think it would show some negative elements to TMs managerial ability. It would suggest he's a one trick manager, some tactical inflexibility and the inability to utilise a transfer window. We were in a stunning position at the start of 22 and we look to be throwing it away.

Strongly disagree. The point is that the issue should not be solely judged on whether it was "got away with" or not. The point also stands that no one in the right mind should or would do it. See above. And yes some credit should be given for rectifying it, but more scrutiny should be given to the idiocy before hand because of how unprofessional it was. Neither of whom were signed. Attempts and achievements are different things. And goodness it's not like they didn't have time to provide a whole list of potential candidates. Fact is despite it being obvious Armstrong was going we didn't get in a replacement.

I guess if I was driving you/family members and I did two terrible and dangerous pieces of driving that you wouldn't be so sanguine if it were only moments or if we got away with and didn't crash. Likewise with these situations. It shows he can't be trusted as a manager. Added to which if it goes down to goal difference would we regret that first half Vs Derby? (Unlikely scenario I know.) Plus there are many instances of other poor choices of playing players out of position albeit not quite as odd as these. Nonsense? Hardly? Not sure how else you would interpret his comments. Also worth noting on Armstrong there was no attempt to replace him even with a free transfer / loan / lower league punt. Hampered by budget, possibly. But blatantly ignored the issue too.

Brilliant post. Post of the Year imo. Few minor tweaks in my book to an exceptional summary. Firstly the club was chronically underfunded under Coyle who well and truly made the mess even worse. With no windows to rectify it and having (one of?) the highest points totals ever for going down, whilst TM is culpable there's far too many mitigate it. In my lifetime I can't remember any manager who saved us from relegation starting as late as he did. Also there were some positive changes on that season under him so I struggle to apportion too much to blame him for that. That said when you see Warnock pull Rotherham out of the mire in harder circumstances or some of Big Sam's escapes you realise that he's not a top tier manager. Secondly the Diaz situation - contraversial but I am not sure how much of a success we can count it. It's hard to factor in opportunity costs but how many clubs can wait 4 years for a transfer to come good, and one who was their entire budget at that? I've said it numerous times but that £7 million invested well giving more of a contribution in any of the last 3 previous seasons could have made a gigantic difference to our success. You are dead wrong about Walton. Average was aspirational for the chap. He was absymal making the swap even worse. Another negative of TM was he never once dropped him even though he clearly was in terrible form. Both aspects of this were criminal. Maybe it's me - you do mention it but it really grinds my gears - but a huge negative has always been that we lurch from one player recruitment crisis to another throughout his tenure. Dack wasn't properly covered in either of his two lengthy injuries (despite multiple windows) and a rediculous shortage of defenders year after year leaving us playing kids and Johnson there. Armstrong wasn't replaced. It's really poor - at least try and replace them. Substandard recruitment is one thing. Not trying is something else entirely. So yeah a 5 at best EXCEPT then there are his comments. Anyone whose comments could be mistaken for Kean is pretty scummy really. In near 30 years of supporting Rovers I have never ever been accused of expecting a 95 rerun. That's disgraceful for a manager to suggest it. Then there's the inciting fans to action against those who criticise the team amongst a whole load of other bull. Knocks him down at least one mark in my opinion. Then there's the playing players rediculously out of position. All managers do it apparently but none, utterly none not even clueless ones like Ince and Coyle would play Gally at right back or Johnson as a false 9. It's so common with him and it's beyond basic - a 12 year old Rovers fan wouldn't do these kind of mistakes. What might have been had he not been so stupid? Factor in all of this and he gets a 4 at best. As you say "some journey"