In fairness he probably went off injured in half those games. That's an average of 25 games per season which I'm not too sure what to make of. Given there are 46 league games per year it's pretty poor, although it's vastly more than I recall him making.

I could be wrong but I think they weren't too convincing earlier in the season too, especially at the start, but then their individual quality started to get them some points. So I think it might be a case that it hasn't clicked properly all season and they rely on individuals bailing them out. As for Waggot by any stretch he's a dud. Crowds, sacking an underperforming manager, recruiting the current one (I think it was GB who did it according to reports), tying players down to contracts, the training ground debacle. On any level he's an utter failure. Back to the Championship. Interesting to see Luton still punching above their weight.

One way or another i'm sure he'll take credit for it...

Rovers youth production is hugely impressive (without sales we probably could put out near a first 11 from our academy) but I doubt Vale is going to be one of those successes. Top is fantastic. Yes there are games in hand for people but they can't and won't all win them all and having points on the board is huge and puts pressure on other teams. With no team looking scary or impressive on a regular basis this makes top even more promising. Delighted, over the moon, to beat that utter charlatan and fraud TM. Crap manager, crap person and - for them a crap result to go with it.

How can we be besting the mighty Sunderland with a manager we were lucky to have? Come on Rovers. Great news to tune into. Maybe the players have something to prove to TM, sounds like they are busting a gut. Dolan being used appropriately here as a nuisance sub. Glad to see promising signs from Garrett. Glad to see Evans in a different jersey.

I also asked should we let the Wharton lads run their contracts down? Not internationals but pretty crucial to us. And as for the 3 I think Nayambe regularly plays for his country and Lenihen has a few caps? Also it's championship level Vs prem level, but I think you can make the adjustment unless you are saying it's a different story for the premier league? Perhaps most pertinently all three were established in the Rovers team. And that what counts most to the club. Firstly all three were in their prime and therefore saleable assets. You talk about them getting older but they weren't at the twilight of their career by any stretch. To say they had no value because of their age blatantly isn't true. Not true about the fees either. Rothwell for example we reputedly turned down a fee of £6 million for which is a sizeable fee. Also given what other players of similar calibre have gone for I would suggest the fees would be decent. Even if the fees aren't great (which I don't think would be true) then to quote Tesco every little helps. Even if we got a fraction of what it costs through selling them that still would have contributed significantly to funding the replacements. Britain for example was £1 million, even the most pessimistic of views would show we'd have certainly recouped that. The lack of fees could very likely be the difference between at least one more addition and not. This is the debate - how much are the club to blame? Glad we agree the club did arse it up. I think 50:50 is too generous to the club. If we had things sorted in time then a decision on a non signing player could have made with at least a year, maybe 18 months to go. That way we'd have got some return on them. Instead that's when we start negotiations leaving us up the creak. Given it's also happened with Armstrong and Bereton I think it shows the trend of the club badly managing this. Also given players can and do run down contracts it's something the club should have been prepared for. I'd say 80:20 minimum the club are to blame.

I get football is all about opinions but this is pretty silly. Chelsea should let Mount and James go for free because they came through the ranks and cost nothing? Or TAA from Liverpool. Maybe the Wharton lads should be allowed to run down their contract? Terrible logic. Also given the fees we paid for Brittan and Hyam and SS it clearly did cost us something to replace them. I mean they literally cost fees. Two of the three literally are like for like replacements. To say it doesn't cost us anything is a denial of reality. I'd also question the issue that no one wanted them on a number of fronts. Most pertinently though we wanted them, hence the contract offers and we didn't get them, so it's hardly like it's no loss given that we wanted them to stay. I also have doubts there's any club who lost so much of their team for free but haven't any stats to hand. Mind you that doesn't really matter as when you are going to make up straw man arguments like costing us nothing. I'm afraid on this one it's pretty undisputable the club dropped a clanger.

And the money used to sign Gally! Of all the clangers in TMs time this has to be the worst. It was so obvious Raya had that potential and to replace him.woth arguably the worst ever Rovers keeper (comfortably top 3) was madness.

Lots of the prime candidates have been mentioned. One that hasn't and sticks out for me is when we lost onetime to manure 2-0 in torrential rain. Think it was under Big Sam. All I remember is being soaked both on the way to and on the way back from the game, us not laying a glove on manure and them not getting out of first gear.

Good that we can disagree respectfully. The one thing I can't see how you can say - and apologies if I am overstating your case/misunderstanding you - is that all the young players filling out the squad will be a success. I just cannot see how you or the club can bank on that given that it never happens that all youth players introduced to the first team squad step up to make the grade. Every club throughout history has seen this not be the case, so I don't see how you or the club can really bank on this. Blimey even using Rovers as an example we have seen that to be the case. From Marlon Brooms to JRC there have been tons of.very talented youngsters who have entered the squad and not made it. Then there's the load who take time to develop - look at how long Bereton was a dead weight, Nayambe when he broke into the first team, how many loans out Wharton has had (one too many, he was ready earlier imo but I digress.) Quite simply no team can rely on an entire cohort of youngsters to step up and fill the squad in a season. History proves that to be the case. Now I'm not saying some of them won't, but to expect Phillips, JRC, A Wharton, Garrett, Vale and maybe a few more to all be squad players just isn't going to happen. Some will make it, some won't. That's facts of football. Assuming the whole lot will is folly by the club and something I don't think we can count on whatsoever.

Sorry mate totally disagree on a couple of points 🙂 I think the squad is still super thin. For example what defensive mid have we got besides Travis? Or any experience in the middle for that matter. Who is the right back cover? When Gally is your second best striker there are issues. I'd say we look thin in a few places, and in a lot more are banking on youth to cover and be adequate squad players. If I've learned one thing in football it's some youth players will make it but some definitely won't, even promising ones. So yeah it seems thin to me. Thanks for more info on Bereton. Helpful to know and lower than I thought. That said it could do a lot of good still even with the 8 million or so. Not saying this is totally accurate but check out the fees according to this website. Basically the Bereton money, even the 8 mill could have paid for most clubs top 2 or 3 most expensive signings. Still a fair whack to miss out on even if it is way lower than hoped. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/transfers/wettbewerb/GB2 So yeah, to me we really should have sold and reinvested.

Not sure any of that endorses them Chaddy! At 18 months negotiate, 12 months get rid and recoup some money. Or even better yet start negotiations a darn sight earlier - that would stop them playing contract chicken with us (or at least leave us better served when they do ) the more I think on it 18 months is cutting it fine. As for the cheap offers for Bereton, assuming that Venkys weren't going to trouser it (admittedly a possibility in which you keep the player) then a cheap offer would have still enabled us to rebuild the team. £10 million wasn't it? That's 2 or 3 new additions to a thin squad. Players who the manager chose. Goodness even if we couldn't have found a striker in budget for a permanent, getting a good PL loan and strengthening a couple of other positions would have still seen us in a better position next summer to be finding a permanent replacement for Bereton. As it is there's been no money to strengthen and we are looking to replace him with zero incoming funds. So whilst they've given JDT a bit of money this year, the underlying decision making and business planning is still woeful.

West Brom should have stuck with Ishmael. He had them near (in?) the playoffs and was a striker and some finished chances away from getting it right. They weren't miles off. And had Dyke (the IS striker they got) not got injured when signed it could have been a different story. To me their problems were obvious but rectifiable under the old regime. Now there's a load more issues.

I'm all for giving JDT time and patience but what a woeful performance and result. Given the run we were on last season, the way the team was decimated in close season - to a paper thin squad anyway - and it was always odds on this season would be a struggle. That said JDT isn't immune to criticism. Not sure Hedges is that good, I mean the shower that was signed at the same time of him makes him seem good, but his attacking potential will never be realised at wing back. And some of his signings Hirst in particular look way below the standard needed. Biggest issue is though we need experience. Tough guys who can mix it and have the mentality to be up for the fight. Every successful Rovers team has had this, whereas when I look at this team there's so little steel in it - mentally or physically - that it's no wonder we told when plan A doesn't go as hoped. Fix that, and get a few of the new signings correct, and we could go places. We're not turning up half the time and still up near the top. If we don't we will continue to struggle.

Maybe it's me but I'd say a sign they learned from their mistakes is potting a manager who repeatedly takes you on months -long relegation form. Or don't let your best assets leave for nothing. Or getting rid of Waggot. I think the evidence points to them not having learned whatsoever. (Which in fairness to the managers has benefited and hindered them.)

What a nice win. Sounds like a really good performance all round, and good that our most expensive transfer (this time round) has been involved with the goals. Hopefully this will do him the world of good. For all our poor performances and faffing about at the back with it, we are also just as capable of a solid victory - and this was a strong victory. This (along with the other victories) should warrant JDT gets more time and patience with the dodge performances and results that are mixed in with them. Also worth noting it was much needed after a few poor results so stopping the rot was key too. Mind you good runs, bad runs or otherwise a 3-0 is always welcome!

Chaddy please can we differentiate between getting behind someone and providing honest criticism? I'd love for him to prove me wrong and score 30 goals en route to promotion. I'm behind the lad. Objectively saying I think he isn't very good has nothing to do with my intent or support for him, and is an appraisal of his ability. And both his record to date and his performances for us warrant such an appraisal.

Ok, I'll rephrase my comments: If with all of that research they've decided that Hirst is who they want as first choice then I'd question their competence and judgement! No signing is a guaranteed success or fail and there's still time to pull it round. However on what I have seen, and his past history, Hirst doesn't seem at all good enough to improve our forward line. I think the experts have made a bad call.

If Hirst was first choice than I really don't see what the experts have over on fans. Maybe he'll come good in 3 plus years, it happened with Bereton. Even less so than then though we don't really have time to wait that long for someone to come good. As for being able to strengthen in Jan and not doing - my word was TM deliberately trying to not get us promoted?

I'm still backing JDT and here are my reasons why: 1) What he inherited. Where to start? A team on a half season relegation form run, a team with 5 years of TM's culture of apathy behind it. A squad shorn of some key players from last season including the player of the year and captain, with a raft of other squad losses too. A squad of limited experience. It was a pretty rubbish situation JDT inherited. The signings of the previous transfer window to his arrival were gash and have added very little. And I don't think it was his pre season plans and he arrived late. Hardly ideal circumstances, especially the neglect of the squad coming home to roost. 2) It takes time I recall Hughes first half season being pretty woeful. Likewise Souness in his end of season before his first full season. Even TMs successful league 1 campaign took a while to get going. Admittedly not like for like as the first 2 examples didn't have a transfer window but unsure if either had quite as hard a situation as the one inherited. Either way I think the time principle still holds true in part. 3) JDT has to learn what doesn't work Same as Hughes had to learn Emerton wasn't a left winger and Amoruso wasn't a centre back for himself (although we all knew it) JDT has to have given everyone a clean slate and learn for himself what works and doesn't work. Hopefully he's a quick learner but in fairness the clean slate principle does mean that things we know from seeing us the last few seasons, will take a bit of time for JDT to uncover. We have to remember JDT hasn't seen said issues and errors over the long period of time we have. That said the penny should be beginning to drop and some trials have by now had a fair crack of the whip. (Imo some things need more than a game to assess whether they can work or not, one game can be misleading.) 4) Our position Despite all the worries and the poor form we still have a solid amount of points and are top 10. That's not a bad position to be in when things aren't quite working and a decent base to start from. We are picking up some wins and we aren't in danger of relegation so it's not a bad base to be building from before it clicks. If we were struggling for points the situation would be more worrying and pressing. 5)He's not TM Entirely subjective and not a good rational reason but not being that odious, lying self-serving former manager is a big plus that endears him to me. Makes me more willing to give him a bit of time. I should add there are some concerns. The main 2 for me is when we lose we seem to get hammered which suggests a fragility to the team which perhaps goes beyond the lost games. Whether it's an inability to sort things out or adjust or mental fragility it could be quite worrying. Hopefully it is "just" part of the learning process and goes away but I can see how it can be interpreted (and may be) a worrying trend. Hopefully another window for a few more options and a bit longer working with the squad and this will go away. Appreciate there aren't any guarantees on that mind! Second big concern is around our transfers. The lad from Peterborough sounded exactly what we wanted and yet hasn't worked out, which is disappointing. If those signings don't come off, then you do wonder what will. Again, hopefully, as JDT imprints his style and gets his squad his form will improve. The one that really worried me is Hirst as he didn't sound like a striker good enough to lead the line, nor is he appearing like it. If he is the type we are aiming at we have some issues. Hopefully (again) with time we can use JDTs Scandinavian contacts and get better quality and this was a B list player. I'm hoping the concerns are ironed out and whilst there's no certainty I this will happen, I do think that the reasons outlined means that JDT should be given time to address them and why it's not all doom and gloom.

Well Gav this is daft - of course net spend matters. As in that shows it's a well run club. It shows that they have generated income to invest in players. It shows that clubs can generate the money needed to get promoted without needing parachute payments (which I think was the initial main point?) I will grant you there is an element of speculate to accumulate being shown, but then most clubs can do that. And in fact in some of the cases they didn't need that much money to speculate/ to start off getting promoted whatsoever. Burnley first time round springs to mind, Huddersfield, Norwich first time round, Brentford - who generated all their own cash. All good examples of loads of money not absolutely being needed to build to success. I'd also say playoffs isn't totally irrelevant as if you can get in them you have a chance of promotion. They are a bit of a lottery. It's not the most compelling argument I grant you but it does mean there is a chance, and on rare occasions the small spending club can get promoted (Bournmouth first time? Blackpool). Anyhow IF Rovers had invested their money better than maybe we'd have the money to speculate. How much was lost from the trio who walked for nothing this summer? How much was lost at not selling Armstrong and Bereton at the right time? (Albeit the former fetched a decent price of which some should have been invested, to invest absolutely nothing was poor.) How much lost in not selling Bereton. Dare I mention the £5 mil spunked on Gally We haven't protected or sold assets well so we haven't generated income the way other clubs have done so. Had we managed this a bit better than maybe we would be able to generate better fees and buy better players and trade up. Plus we have the advantage of an excellent academy. And the manager had more time than any predecessor. So they aren't totally hard done to even under the shambles of Venkys.

Agree, both are probably on thin ice. Bruce more so in my mind, but that's more my gut than any rational. Should go for Rowett, he's constantly getting Millwall to punch above their weight. Did likewise at Brum. And that's what they need given their respective squads' quality.

Pedant alert but Flitcroft did play wide right mid a couple of times under Hodgeson I think. The Manure home game is one of those times that sticks in the mind. As for Tugays invisible friend there was a time I can recall that happening but i'm also pretty sure (unless the memory is playing tricks on me) that it was for about one season and then he picked back up again.

Poor old Tony. It's tough when you get no support from the owners. The fact they let him spend 7 million (a huge sum for us) on a player who did nothing for 2 years - goodness what horrible support. The fact that those nasty owners didn't can him in any one of three lengthy death spirals - weren't they against him? Actually this does annoy me for their wanton disregard for Rovers, but it's taking the piss to say he wasn't supported when they stuck with him during some very bad runs. On that point maybe the reason we didn't progress is perhaps down to those death spirals? It's a school of thought.

Billy MacKinlay got booked in every game he played for us.