I feel like the goalposts are moving again. I wasn't saying whether he was any good I think he's crap, you think he's decent(?) but that's not the point I was making. The point I was making is just because the club do something, it doesn't automatically mean their judgement was correct, or that they were right to do so. Loads of examples of this from swapping Raya for Walton, thinking Darren Peacock was a defender, paying 5 million for Dailly, sticking Johnson up front to name a few. My point was the club can and does get it wrong. They all do. We can question their decisions.

I remember the first football computer game I got - which ironically was a European Super League game - on the Amiga. The teams in said competition included Malmö, Bordeaux, Benfica - so much has changed since the champions league was invented.

Whilst the post is definitely fantasy land (as you say) the bit in bold isn't. It's a very real problem we have had. We have constantly been patching up, chopping and changing, overly relying on loans, having unbalanced squads, year in, year out. And in fairness whilst there will always be change in a championship team, given there has been no continuity in style it means there hasn't even been a cohesive style of play, like for like replacements or any consistency for those who have stayed. For all the talk of projects there was no consistency or build whatsoever, just tearing it up and starting again every year. It's made it infinitely harder for ourselves and needs to stop.

Again, to reiterate, what's the point if nothing is reported or done about it?!

Why on earth do they bother? They don't care what we think, they (Venkys and Rovers) don't run the club properly or make good decisions, so what is the point?

It's not the loss which hurts the most - although that's painful. It's not even the fact we put in an appalling performance - although that was a disgrace in itself. No what hurts the most is it was so sodding avoidable. We'd done this in so many other away games. The tippy tappy limpness hasn't worked 8 times before so it's no surprise it didn't work Vs Burnley. And if that wasn't a whopping big clue as to what style to play Sheff Utd and others gave us a blooming big hint as well. It was just so obvious that wouldn't work as it hasn't so many other times away from home. It required a millisecond of thought to know that this tippy tappy limpness wouldn't work, and yet we persist with it all game. The other two, painful as they are, might be excusable. Certainly losing was, and if the performance was a one off it would be spectacularly disappointing but perhaps a case of a bad day at the office or overawed by the occasion. But given all the warning signs and knowing what we needed to do and more importantly not do, to rock up with those tactics and that performance is criminal.

You do realise that doesn't automatically mean Vale is any good right? Unless you are saying JDT and Rovers are infallible?

Not in a satisfactory manner, no. He's been crap. Saying I hope he gets better isn't a defence, it's an admission he's been crap. And it's not based on anything. I could now hope for a career as a footballer - no basis in fact. Hirst coming good is only marginally more likely. Ahem my question is why do you repeatedly persist with plan A when we go behind and it clearly isn't working?

Handy to exclude the other play off place for not fitting the narrative. Also it's 9 games having gone behind not one disappointing day. And chased out is a tad overdramatic too. Most people on here are just expressing concerns about losing a derby but more importantly the same stupid mistakes being repeated. Mind you that doesn't fit the narrative

Two utterly criminal errors from Rovers which really should have been avoided. 1) No plan B. Look I get why he set up as he did with the team that he did. I understand the thinking. Mola.a big lad with presence, another defensive mid. On paper it's worth a shot. But when the team and the tactics aren't working, clearly aren't working, to persist with both for the full.game.is idiocy. It wasn't working. Everyone could see that yet we continued to pass it round the back like a kick about in the park. It's not that hard to have a Plan B. It's not that difficult to see when Plan A isn't working. So why don't we? And this is the most frustrating thing about it - no team in the history of football hasn't had to revert to plan B at times. No team has solely had success through plan A, so why do we think we are different? Secondly we are massively reliant on youngsters stepping up to the plate. Again no team in the history of football has had all their youngsters ready to just slot in as squad players. So again, why do we think we are different? Some of them are ready at this level, some will be but aren't there yet, and others won't. History tells us this is the case. And yet so many positions we are relying on youngsters in their first season stepping up to the level required. That will never happen with them all so why are we wildly hoping it will? This is what bothers me, because these are issues that are utterly avoidable and completely known to us. Today our refusal to recognise reality cost us very dearly indeed.

It's not just Sheff Utd though is it? They've thrown away a ton of leads so there's plenty to go on. Bollocks

Apt summary. Genuinely think this the worst reffing I've seen in a long time. It's not just the big decisions, stuff like the corner shows a bias I've not seen in a long time.

The other positive is that Burnley aren't that good. I mean they are one of the better teams in this division but that doesn't take much. It's doable if we make a few key adjustments.

Positives We have worked hard and kept them at bay by and large Kaminski It's 0-0 Negatives We are offering nothing going forwards We need more.l of the ball to take some of the pressure off. I can see why he went for the first ram he did but I think getting Pickering on and Hedges forward may help us a lot and give us better balance without losing too much defensively.

Same although it may be the pub I'm in which use about 6000 lights in the place, dazzling every screen. Also perhaps unsurprising being in Yorkshire everyone else in the pub is a single. Cracking save by Kaminski!

That's changing the goalposts buddy. We were taking about the ability to attract players not the impact they had. They are two completely different things.

Sorry Chaddy but this is clearly not the case. Check out the transfer link below for previous transfers: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/everton-fc/transfers/verein/29/saison_id/2020 Big players coming into Everton including from Real and Napoli. That shows that they could attract talent without Lampard.

Problem is whilst we rely heavily on Ben it is very much an eggs in one basket sort of thing. Yes he would be a huge loss but he's going to be a huge loss next season as well. And my biggest fear with all this pressure on him is what if he gets injured or goes off the boil? Both are possible. What if we get key injuries in other places we have little cover? I do wonder if £10 million well spent could push us to promotion. Maybe a couple of strikers (perhaps one on loan) and cover for a position we have little depth in. That could be the difference for promotion and lessens the risk all round.

Agree with second point and probably agree with the first too. Certainly the fact he messed up every season in different circumstances is huge evidence suggesting that he would have messed it up anyway. But I also recall we lost a few tight games due to his howlers and do wonder what might have been.

I'm surprised he got that close to it... In some ways this horrific mistake has been mitigated by Kaminski being here. Issues are that it was an unnecessary change, we missed out on much larger money for him and of course the Walton debacle which was a complete handicap to the team. Only one season but my word he was rubbish and cost us big time. Without his howlers, who knows where we would have been.

It's a fair point they do have time to develop. And I hope they do surprise us. Bereton certainly did after 2 years of showing nothing coming good, so it's possible but it's more the exception than the rule. Maybe we should pack them both off to South America. That said it didn't take too much to clock those other guys weren't good, and the signs have been that both these chaps are pretty poor. I think I'd feel more comfortable not naming them so if I saw a definable quality in them, some potential. But I can't think of one thing they are showing which is decent or promising, a strength or an asset if you like. They aren't fast, they don't have presence, they don't strike me as that quick nor predatory or good in the air. Maybe it's a bit early to judge but the early signs imo are very discouraging. And Hirst certainly doesn't look anywhere near worth spending 4 million on.

Kinda disappointed you didn't acknowledge or engage with any of my points 😟 Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but some acknowledgement of the points In made would be nice. It feels like you have totally ignored everything I said! For example I gave 3 reasons why people are still going on about Dack. Fair enough dispute those reasons and their validity - MB is all about debate - but it doesn't help any discussion to ignore what the other person says. Likewise I say why I think the different natural positions doesn't prevent a comparison. Again, that's totally ignored. Disagree, sure but at least engage with the points I've made, in what I hope is a respectful manner. To clarify I don't want everyone to agree with me (well not much anyway 😉) but to engage with what's actually posted.

Come on Chaddy, it shouldn't be a surprise. The abysmal defeats when we look toothless, weaker players playing ahead of him, plus his history at Rovers. No way you should be surprised by this. I take your point that there are a ton of positives and that these outweigh the negatives, but to say this is a surprise topic is a tad naive. Lots of reasons I've mentioned as to why it's a topic that's being discussed. The biggest one for me being just imagine where we'd be using him instead of Vale or Hirst. Well that's not true either. The comparison is valid because a) all three are in the team to score and create goals and b) natural/preferred position doesn't prevent us comparing how one would do outside of that natural position. We can still evaluate their skills there. Different natural positions doesn't protect them. Example no 1 Nayambe's natural position was RB, however given his abilities etc he was still a better bet at CB for us than say Greer. Messi's best position say is as a wide forward but it would be daft to say he wouldn't offer not more up top than Brown did for example. Not sure why you are so keen to defend JDT's use of two of the worst forwards in Rovers history.

If we are basing it on performance, as oppose to blind loyalty to what the manager choses, then clearly he has done more than Hirst and Vale. They have offered the square root of naff all when they have played, which is far less than the glimpses of quality Dack has chosen. Look, I get it, JDT doesn't like Dack, and if I am honest I think the wages could be better spent come January. But to pretend Vale and Hirst are better options is plain daft, as neither have shown an ounce of ability, whereas Dack has shown the odd glimpse now, and showed a lot more prior to injury.

Hirst at £4 seems risky. At £4 million it's lunacy. Mind you given how long it took for Bereton to come good I can see the owners allowing it. For me it has to be a striker. We need a striker who isn't a dead weight like the current cover. Second is a defensive mid. For all I like Morton and Warton they aren't really defensive mids and without Travis we need someone in there who can do the dirty work. Full back is the third position where cover is needed. Definitely need one, maybe two as without the regular 2 we look much more disjointed. If we had more capacity for deals I'd be loaning out a few of the youth and getting them regular game time and bringing in other cover. There's a few who I feel could do with a loan out.