Indeed. WBA have a very good manager and can grind out results. Fulham aren't hindered by Parker any more so should do well. At the bottom end the big surprise to me is Reading. What has gone on there from last season? Other teams round the bottom aren't quite as surprising. Would expect Forest to be doing a bit better without (pardon the pun) pulling up trees. Maybe thought Sheff Utds quality would have bailed them out a little more but not that much of a surprise given they have been in such a rut to keep struggling.

Yeah I think that to a large extent I agree with you end up where you deserve, albeit not completely. I think what/how other teams perform does play a part in it. For example it was a great Premier League win by Leicester however it was aided by the fact most of the "big 6" were a bit of a shambles. So circumstances I think do play a part, if not enough to excuse things. I think my second reflection on this would be I'd say I perhaps I am thinking more in terms of a near miss in a car crash - most of the journey might have been ok but there was one dangerous incident where we nearly had an accident. For me, the 17 game streak was a little like that, it was a near miss. It was relegation form, and had it occurred a bit earlier in the season so we, or rather other teams, didn't run out of games or on the back of a good start I'm not sure it would have been a miss. As for Covid we had some issues but nowhere near the scale of the other two clubs imo. The pressure thing is a huge worry and with that the experience to manage games. Both seem to be hugely lacking.

I get what you are saying about hypothetical seasons didn't happen, however I'd say in most industries stuff that could have happened and there was a strong possibility/chance of them happening, do influence performance reviews. For example if kids could have been exposed to a safeguarding risk but it didn't occur, it would still be looked dimly upon. Or closer to football if a team got away without having adequate cover in a position through lucking out through injuries or a manager winning despite playing a player in a totally unsuitable position they would still come under scrutiny. Hypotheticals, as in those that are significantly possible/likely do matter. And I think there is a lot of evidence that Rovers do not perform well under pressure. Both runs were aided by a couple of wins in dead rubber matches when we were safe, putting a huge gloss on things. And we have seen when the pressure is on - like going for playoffs, Rovers fall to pieces. The dead rubbers make things look less close than they were. Also I think regarding Covid impacting teams, that also was unprecedented, hugely skewed things, and made it much easier to stay up. I think it would have had a much closer final table had the relegated two been on a more level playing field with Covid. Again, that's not an unreasonable hypothetical, it was fortunate for us and a few other teams. I'm not trying to say everything TM does is wrong - that isn't accurate or helpful - but I do think we had a bit of fortune last season and the chance of going down was a realistic possibility.

Agree. Funnily enough two games stand out for me on this. One Vs Tottenham where we were dreadful and yet somehow fluked a 2-1 win with two against the run of play flukey goals. Went home happy that day even though logically speaking the football was dire. Another instance of this that comes to mind is 1-0.v Sunderland under Parkes (I think) which was 90 mins of both sides lumping it aimlessly long with nothing happening bar an amazing Gally long range strike. Crap football and a win and you forget how boring it was, or rather it doesn't irk you. Disagree. Last season's run could really have got us down. Only the win Vs Derby and Covid weakening two of the relegated teams meant that we steered to safety. Also it wouldn't be a shame because one good season doesn't cancel out the multiple seasons of ineptitude.

Thanks for the well reasoned reply. I disagree with a fair bit (as you with me) but appreciate the tone and your explanation. Think we both agree Bauer was a cock up by TM. Martinez - man that would have been an improvement had we got him. Thinking on the difference in class makes you want to weep. Again though like with Tosin, unless they push you over the finish line to promotion, in some respects they are a waste. In which case longer term a solid league 1/championship keeper would have been better for us long term. That said given how many goals he cost us maybe Martinez would have been the difference... Douglas and Trybull I see the point (especially with the former) but again it's the short termism which is a huge problem. Let's say all of the loans worked out last season, if we didn't get promoted that's still half a team to replace. That's no way to build a team, be sustainable on or off the pitch. Also as you said Trybull was a decent enough squad player - that's not a difference maker, so why waste a loan on that? Surely we could have had a decent enough squad player from the pool of freebies/lower leagues, and benefit from that continuity and asset wise for more than one season. The more I reflect on it, it's the wholesale nature of it that's the problem. You can make a decent case for most of the loans (not Walton mind) but when you put it all together it ruins continuity, increases transfer workload and doesn't help finances. It's sticking plasters on gaping wounds. Agree there is a risk of league 1 players not making it, even if they look promising. But equally a fair number do make it. That's where good scouting comes in. It is possible. Likewise as you say scouting abroad could also have mitigated this issue. Point is, either way, there are ways around these difficulties if we could be arsed to take them. Fair point on loans to buy with lower leagues although think it could certainly work with premiership youngsters. As for Braithwaite, even as a stop gap he was pretty poor. And so we got no benefit from it, only Everton did as he learned from his mistakes here. At least our youngsters would have learned and still been on our books. Or a loan to buy (admittedly that probably wouldn't have been from lower leagues on reflection) could have helped with the potential summer transfer window. Another centre back was/is needed. Ayala's injury record is horrific, Warton could take a fair while to come back and we are assuming he will come back at the same level (some don't.) Especially if they could cover a full back position, knowing we were a bit weak in those areas, and a defensive signing made a lot of sense. Anyhow quibbles about individuals aside, a successful team cannot be built on youth loans from the big 6. It's not a good foundation for the club whatsoever.

The loan thing really annoys me. Tosin - Bauer would have been a much better choice. We would have had three seasons of the chap by now, rather than one, in which we are short. Walton - you are telling me there wasn't a better keeper available for the wages and loan fee. Given I think most keepers would have been better than him this was a colossal waste of money. And all the "we got Kaminski" firstly didn't undo all Walton's howlers and we would have either had a second choice keeper covered or someone to sell - either to our advantage, and still have Kaminski last year. Douglas and Trybull the same. There weren't players of that quality knocking around League 1 or freebies? Find that hard to believe. In fairness Douglas did look good on paper, but even then with his wages and loan fee, would we have been better getting Pickering in earlier and another year's experience at this level under his belt? Braothwaite - am sure there must have been a league 1 player with potential that we could have got a loan to buy with instead. All the way back to league 1 we haven't massively got it right with loan players. At least then loan with option to buy helped us with Armstrong and Downing. I've more patience with these kind of deals because if they work out we can take advantage of them and sign them, if not send them back. The risk v benefit is more balanced whereas with the loans they are much more stacked against us.

YES!!!! Blooming obvious way to go.

Glad to see that players are selected in merit.

Not that excited about a signing from Leeds. And let's be honest the last two Antonson and Douglas didn't set the world alight. Certainly nothing better that couldn't have been picked up on free transfers and y'know been longer term assets. That said after crapping on Mowbray's cornflakes, or whatever Chapman did to become out of favour, having another winger in the squad is not a bad thing. But if he isn't better than Dolan or Chapman it sets us back even further. How many loans have we screwed up like this over the years?

@riverholmes despite thinking TM is useless and our squad is paper thin for me the start of the season has left me more optimistic. Not of doing anything - goodness we don't do that when we have a strong side or budget - but if staying up. All the worries you share are true and it is a marathon not a sprint but the start of the championship has seen us already pick up 7 points - far more than I expected. More importantly there is some utter dross and totally crap teams in there to help keep us afloat. Sure you shouldn't be relying on there being three worse teams but it's been that way for a number of years for us. And I am convinced that there are three worse teams than us. Preston are persevering with a caretaker manager in the permanent position which never works. I think that Neill probably showed how good a manager he was keeping them as high as he did, which combined with the current incumbent's ineptitude leaves them in a worrying situation. Derby have a shockingly thin squad this year and a poor manager, needing a helping hand from Covid to keep them up last season. Huddersfield look gash. Forest have the look of a club where things are deeply wrong. And that's just off the top of my head. Will be interesting to see if any of last year's promoted teams suffer second season syndrome too. Oh yes and Swansea seem to put style above substance which won't end well either. All in all as poor as we are I feel a bit more optimistic of our chances of survival having seen the poor fare on offer in the championship. Not much to be happy about, and we can't keep relying on this - one year the great escape won't happen. But for this year I feel we might not do terribly. Disclaimer I am NOT saying that we will do well mind!

To be honest I don't really mind whether our scouting is done by video analysis, watching players in the flesh or consulting mediums as long as it extends beyond ex-Boro players and "Big 6" kids on loan...

Actually I am far from alone in that. That seems to be somewhat revisionist. For example Four Four Two had predicted them to be highly placed the last couple of years: https://fanbanter.co.uk/fourfourtwo-predict-the-20-21-championship-table/ Their fans said stuff like: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11688/12068240/championship-fans-predict-their-clubs-fate-for-the-2020-21-season And their fan interviewed in Four Four Two predicted them 8th (seperate to pundits opinions above, apologies only have that in paper format.) So the idea that no one thought they had a decent squad doesn't seem to hold much water. I will acknowledge they were playing badly when he took over but from November onwards there was hardly a massive uptick in form. It seems that the team was underperforming and not doing as expected. And that's a fair bit of time to get it right in a season. And as you ignored he had a massive helping hand from Covid. Rotherham having to play so many games in succession, Sheff Weds without their new manager due to Covid, the points deduction. Any one of those didn't happen and it most likely would have been a different story.

Really? Last season with a decent squad they were worse than us and finished below us. That's not a great indication that he is doing well. In fact they were very lucky to stay up and only a points deduction AND Covid significantly impacting two relegation rivals saved them. If anything he is lucky to be managing this season in the Championship. This season has admittedly been more challenging circumstances, but it's very early days. One win in 3, throwing away the lead in injury time Vs Posh (I think) again doesn't shout out that he is doing a great job.

Could you get a weaker right wing then Gally and Buckley? Forest are poor, we are poor. Think though we should get something out of it but the 5 at the back worries me. Has it ever worked for us?

Surely this shows that loans can be risky and problematic as well? Some of them were utter flops, especially the youngsters. Also reminds us how Coyle was dealt a terrible hand. Sold all his best players with no money to replace them. Whereas we have Travis and Nayambe he had Lowe and Henley. The man got a terrible deal. Mind you he didn't half make the worst of such a deal. So, so many poor signings - frees and loans. And paying a fee for Williams...

I get your point and it has some merit but not all free transfers are old mercenaries. The example you use has in it arguably our best centre forward of the last 5 years and a chap who captained us to promotion and did well for us in his first season here. The other three are pretty, actually very, gash though. If anything this proves the point that some free transfers can be good but others need to be steered well clear of.

One of the many issues with building a side with loans is that there can be question marks about their commitment to the cause. Especially premiership youngster loans or those on big contracts elsewhere if we go down it doesn't make much difference to them. I seem to recall João and Emmes not being too professional in the run in with Rovers for example. So having a lad who actually is bothered about the club is a plus and negates that worry regarding the loan. Actually having a body through the door, albeit on loan, also is a huge benefit too.

Millwall, Stoke, Boro, Cardiff off the top of my head play that way. Unsure if other teams do as well. Luton? QPR? Forest? I imagine it's not that rare at this level.

Pleased with this point more than the Swansea game (although obviously 3 points is better). Much more of a challenge - physical opposition, an astute manager and a tough atmosphere. A far cry from a much depleated Swansea team favouring style over effectiveness. Of course the worrying signs are all there to see with the daft tactics and formation but to be picking up points despite that is a positive sign. It suggests we could stay up this season.

Genuine question - when has anything under this lot been done for the long term? Reliance on loans and crocks, contracts wound down, pricing structure for games - nothing i can think of is with a view to the long term. Not disagreeing that we need to ensure survival this season mind, although how this is done is another question.

Whilst all managers do it there is a huge difference between the two examples given - and I am not talking about prem quality manager Vs incompetence. Some of the TM deals are very, very dodgy. It's been done to death but no way the nature of the Pears or Ayala deals should have been done by us. Contract lengths in particular being very odd. Factor in that Downing wasn't needed / used last season as well and you begin to see a very uncomfortable pattern.

Statistically speaking it must be very unlikely as a coincidence. After all how many clubs are there, or even narrowing it down a bit now many teams have played in the championship over the last 5 years? Even at the most basic fag packet maths assuming each player has played for 3 of the 23 other championship clubs previously, the odds would not be that so many would have a Boro connection. What tips the odds even further is it's hardly as of Boro are a centre of excellence for young talent and are thereby developing more youngsters. Nor have they been successful recently needing a turnover of players at a new level. All in all it is a very unlikely situation.

Agree. Tell you what, I reckon if the Barnsley owners had implemented their plan with Rovers starting base rather than Barnsley's (assuming they potted TM) the project would have gotten over the line.

Kean is scum of the earth and the lowest of the low. All that said it has only been under TMs watch that the training ground has tries to be sold off and it's the only time we've been told fans have expectations of 95. He won't reach Kean levels but my word, TM is trying his best to.

Whilst I think we may have to think laterally to get the most out of the squad I'm not sure this would be the move I would try. For starters the technique of Gally isn't that great and you need to be a more intelligent footballer to play that position. Also there's a heck of a difference between putting yourself about a bit and being able to tackle. No, Gally really is what he seems, a poor man's Jason Roberts, causing havoc for other forwards or an impact sub/plan B (his stats from the bench Vs starting are a remarkable contrast.) Sadly he isn't used well in the former and we can't afford for him to be the latter.