Blue blood

I'll add this on Obafemi deal - he's making a mistake going to Swansea over us, and there aren't too many clubs where you can say that. Lost a lot of their best players, a poor manager, and more concerned with style over substance. All signs that they are really going to struggle.

Ok feel there are a ton of different threads in this which I will try to pick up on in turn. Firstly I think it's key we seperate personal insults from criticism/questioning TM. The two are utterly not the same. I can question his judgement without resorting to name calling - with TM or any other professional. There's a discussion as to whether name calling is appropriate but feel that's a rabbit hole we could get lost in. Suffice to say it is a seperate issue. Secondly other professions are questioned too. Whether it's complaints procedures, whistleblowing policies or professional standards other professions are criticised and questioned. People do look for second opinions and also move on when they judge the competence is unsatisfactory. Of course the last point may be why there is so much complaining - because whilst we can change our doctor we can't change our football club. Of course there is the question whether there is too much questioning of TM. This holds a bit more water, although like all other instances of people being questioned the more of it there is, the more likely people are onto something and there are serious concerns. In fact the more dodgy someone is, the more likely they are to be questioned and on more decisions. Again it's worth differentiating tiredness of the same old crap/sweeping statements Vs genuine concerns. "He's crap cause TM signed him" is very different from people questioning specific decisions or indeed TMs success rate. Sweeping statements may be tiresome and unfair, but it is equally unfair to dismiss genuine criticisms and concerns as unthought out statements. From the makeup of the squad to the experience of squad I think there are some valid concerns. I think it's worth seperating out from the clichés. Finally I'd add in that though professionals probably do know more that doesn't mean that a) fans know nothing or b) they are infallible. its only if you hold to these two assumptions that professionals cannot be questioned. As I've highlighted, other professionals are questioned, and people can spot when they have made mistakes. If you have a basic understanding of something you probably can spot when a pro makes a basic mistake or something doesn't seem to make sense. Actually sometimes even common sense alerts us to errors that pros make. Not just football, all areas of life. Still whatever you want to call it, whether it's common sense, knowing the game or I'm just being arrogant my call would be we are badly run with a poor manager. Yep let's avoid clichés and Insults because none of that is needed. Just on his actions and decisions alone TM doesn't seem to be doing that good a job.

Good point I have noticed this in his tenure. You could even say going back to Gally or Bereton the needs were for defensive reinforcements yet all the money went on one position.

Thing is BDS my standards for a football manager are much higher than them being better than me. Same with doctors, vets, pilots to name a few other professions. All miles better than me at their roles but I still expect them to have a degree of competence way beyond my meagre abilities in these areas!

We could offer good terms to them before they get in the last year of their deal! Sure they might not sign then but a) they may well do securing an asset and b) if they don't you have plenty of time to adjust. I'll be honest, I'm a lot less relaxed than you that they will re-sign with us.

Strongly disagree on Nayambe for a variety of reasons, although I feel this is better discussed in another thread. Yeah am sure they are looking to see if they could get better deals, which leads me to ask: do you think they can get that elsewhere or a best deal at Rovers? My fear is they can get better elaewhere which is why I think at least one of the three if not more won't be re-signing.

Y'know I totally thought you were serious in defending the club. Apologies. Yeah not all deals do get over the line - for all clubs. But it is amazing how often it happens to us.

Apart from Aguero only scored 4 of their goals, the rest were spread around some of the best attacking talent in Europe, and they already have brought in a marquee attacking midfield signing to bolster an already very strong squad. So yeah, just like Man City...

Last years of their contracts and various people/sources have said neither are working on deals (unlike Lenihen and Bereton.) Add in how Nayambe has been treated as well and I reckon he is definitely off. As for the decent bid I agree Rothwell could go - we can't/won't get the best out of him - but only if the money is reinvested in permanent signings. Not sure that would be the case.

Don't worry it will all be cheap loans, leaving us bereft of experience - and a squad in 12 months time. After all why not kick problems down the road. Nayambe & Rothwell look like they won't be staying so it's good to have extra work to do in the future, plus uncertainties about one or two others as well. Remember folks it's all about the journey, the long term, despite every decision being the opposite of that.

Beat me to it @RevidgeBlue Also anyone else a tad worried about getting players on loan from Brighton? It didn't work out so well last time. we're not even a big club/excellent youth set up feeder club anymore...

No, no, no that can't be right because previously honest Tony has come out and blamed Ayala's previous clubs for ruining his fitness by not playing possession football. Surely he isn't changing the narrative?

Had this discussion with someone else in another thread. I said there and will say again - a lot of the loan deals on an individual basis you could make a case for. This lad is no different. The issue is that the whole strategy is built around them leading to an overall lack of experience, no continuity and bugger all assets. It's shunting all our problems further down the line to cause even more problems. Quite simply it's no way to run a club and is overall going to hurt us, even if some of the deals make sense.

Indeed. WBA have a very good manager and can grind out results. Fulham aren't hindered by Parker any more so should do well. At the bottom end the big surprise to me is Reading. What has gone on there from last season? Other teams round the bottom aren't quite as surprising. Would expect Forest to be doing a bit better without (pardon the pun) pulling up trees. Maybe thought Sheff Utds quality would have bailed them out a little more but not that much of a surprise given they have been in such a rut to keep struggling.

Yeah I think that to a large extent I agree with you end up where you deserve, albeit not completely. I think what/how other teams perform does play a part in it. For example it was a great Premier League win by Leicester however it was aided by the fact most of the "big 6" were a bit of a shambles. So circumstances I think do play a part, if not enough to excuse things. I think my second reflection on this would be I'd say I perhaps I am thinking more in terms of a near miss in a car crash - most of the journey might have been ok but there was one dangerous incident where we nearly had an accident. For me, the 17 game streak was a little like that, it was a near miss. It was relegation form, and had it occurred a bit earlier in the season so we, or rather other teams, didn't run out of games or on the back of a good start I'm not sure it would have been a miss. As for Covid we had some issues but nowhere near the scale of the other two clubs imo. The pressure thing is a huge worry and with that the experience to manage games. Both seem to be hugely lacking.

I get what you are saying about hypothetical seasons didn't happen, however I'd say in most industries stuff that could have happened and there was a strong possibility/chance of them happening, do influence performance reviews. For example if kids could have been exposed to a safeguarding risk but it didn't occur, it would still be looked dimly upon. Or closer to football if a team got away without having adequate cover in a position through lucking out through injuries or a manager winning despite playing a player in a totally unsuitable position they would still come under scrutiny. Hypotheticals, as in those that are significantly possible/likely do matter. And I think there is a lot of evidence that Rovers do not perform well under pressure. Both runs were aided by a couple of wins in dead rubber matches when we were safe, putting a huge gloss on things. And we have seen when the pressure is on - like going for playoffs, Rovers fall to pieces. The dead rubbers make things look less close than they were. Also I think regarding Covid impacting teams, that also was unprecedented, hugely skewed things, and made it much easier to stay up. I think it would have had a much closer final table had the relegated two been on a more level playing field with Covid. Again, that's not an unreasonable hypothetical, it was fortunate for us and a few other teams. I'm not trying to say everything TM does is wrong - that isn't accurate or helpful - but I do think we had a bit of fortune last season and the chance of going down was a realistic possibility.

Agree. Funnily enough two games stand out for me on this. One Vs Tottenham where we were dreadful and yet somehow fluked a 2-1 win with two against the run of play flukey goals. Went home happy that day even though logically speaking the football was dire. Another instance of this that comes to mind is 1-0.v Sunderland under Parkes (I think) which was 90 mins of both sides lumping it aimlessly long with nothing happening bar an amazing Gally long range strike. Crap football and a win and you forget how boring it was, or rather it doesn't irk you. Disagree. Last season's run could really have got us down. Only the win Vs Derby and Covid weakening two of the relegated teams meant that we steered to safety. Also it wouldn't be a shame because one good season doesn't cancel out the multiple seasons of ineptitude.

Thanks for the well reasoned reply. I disagree with a fair bit (as you with me) but appreciate the tone and your explanation. Think we both agree Bauer was a cock up by TM. Martinez - man that would have been an improvement had we got him. Thinking on the difference in class makes you want to weep. Again though like with Tosin, unless they push you over the finish line to promotion, in some respects they are a waste. In which case longer term a solid league 1/championship keeper would have been better for us long term. That said given how many goals he cost us maybe Martinez would have been the difference... Douglas and Trybull I see the point (especially with the former) but again it's the short termism which is a huge problem. Let's say all of the loans worked out last season, if we didn't get promoted that's still half a team to replace. That's no way to build a team, be sustainable on or off the pitch. Also as you said Trybull was a decent enough squad player - that's not a difference maker, so why waste a loan on that? Surely we could have had a decent enough squad player from the pool of freebies/lower leagues, and benefit from that continuity and asset wise for more than one season. The more I reflect on it, it's the wholesale nature of it that's the problem. You can make a decent case for most of the loans (not Walton mind) but when you put it all together it ruins continuity, increases transfer workload and doesn't help finances. It's sticking plasters on gaping wounds. Agree there is a risk of league 1 players not making it, even if they look promising. But equally a fair number do make it. That's where good scouting comes in. It is possible. Likewise as you say scouting abroad could also have mitigated this issue. Point is, either way, there are ways around these difficulties if we could be arsed to take them. Fair point on loans to buy with lower leagues although think it could certainly work with premiership youngsters. As for Braithwaite, even as a stop gap he was pretty poor. And so we got no benefit from it, only Everton did as he learned from his mistakes here. At least our youngsters would have learned and still been on our books. Or a loan to buy (admittedly that probably wouldn't have been from lower leagues on reflection) could have helped with the potential summer transfer window. Another centre back was/is needed. Ayala's injury record is horrific, Warton could take a fair while to come back and we are assuming he will come back at the same level (some don't.) Especially if they could cover a full back position, knowing we were a bit weak in those areas, and a defensive signing made a lot of sense. Anyhow quibbles about individuals aside, a successful team cannot be built on youth loans from the big 6. It's not a good foundation for the club whatsoever.

The loan thing really annoys me. Tosin - Bauer would have been a much better choice. We would have had three seasons of the chap by now, rather than one, in which we are short. Walton - you are telling me there wasn't a better keeper available for the wages and loan fee. Given I think most keepers would have been better than him this was a colossal waste of money. And all the "we got Kaminski" firstly didn't undo all Walton's howlers and we would have either had a second choice keeper covered or someone to sell - either to our advantage, and still have Kaminski last year. Douglas and Trybull the same. There weren't players of that quality knocking around League 1 or freebies? Find that hard to believe. In fairness Douglas did look good on paper, but even then with his wages and loan fee, would we have been better getting Pickering in earlier and another year's experience at this level under his belt? Braothwaite - am sure there must have been a league 1 player with potential that we could have got a loan to buy with instead. All the way back to league 1 we haven't massively got it right with loan players. At least then loan with option to buy helped us with Armstrong and Downing. I've more patience with these kind of deals because if they work out we can take advantage of them and sign them, if not send them back. The risk v benefit is more balanced whereas with the loans they are much more stacked against us.

YES!!!! Blooming obvious way to go.

Glad to see that players are selected in merit.

Not that excited about a signing from Leeds. And let's be honest the last two Antonson and Douglas didn't set the world alight. Certainly nothing better that couldn't have been picked up on free transfers and y'know been longer term assets. That said after crapping on Mowbray's cornflakes, or whatever Chapman did to become out of favour, having another winger in the squad is not a bad thing. But if he isn't better than Dolan or Chapman it sets us back even further. How many loans have we screwed up like this over the years?

@riverholmes despite thinking TM is useless and our squad is paper thin for me the start of the season has left me more optimistic. Not of doing anything - goodness we don't do that when we have a strong side or budget - but if staying up. All the worries you share are true and it is a marathon not a sprint but the start of the championship has seen us already pick up 7 points - far more than I expected. More importantly there is some utter dross and totally crap teams in there to help keep us afloat. Sure you shouldn't be relying on there being three worse teams but it's been that way for a number of years for us. And I am convinced that there are three worse teams than us. Preston are persevering with a caretaker manager in the permanent position which never works. I think that Neill probably showed how good a manager he was keeping them as high as he did, which combined with the current incumbent's ineptitude leaves them in a worrying situation. Derby have a shockingly thin squad this year and a poor manager, needing a helping hand from Covid to keep them up last season. Huddersfield look gash. Forest have the look of a club where things are deeply wrong. And that's just off the top of my head. Will be interesting to see if any of last year's promoted teams suffer second season syndrome too. Oh yes and Swansea seem to put style above substance which won't end well either. All in all as poor as we are I feel a bit more optimistic of our chances of survival having seen the poor fare on offer in the championship. Not much to be happy about, and we can't keep relying on this - one year the great escape won't happen. But for this year I feel we might not do terribly. Disclaimer I am NOT saying that we will do well mind!

To be honest I don't really mind whether our scouting is done by video analysis, watching players in the flesh or consulting mediums as long as it extends beyond ex-Boro players and "Big 6" kids on loan...

Actually I am far from alone in that. That seems to be somewhat revisionist. For example Four Four Two had predicted them to be highly placed the last couple of years: https://fanbanter.co.uk/fourfourtwo-predict-the-20-21-championship-table/ Their fans said stuff like: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11688/12068240/championship-fans-predict-their-clubs-fate-for-the-2020-21-season And their fan interviewed in Four Four Two predicted them 8th (seperate to pundits opinions above, apologies only have that in paper format.) So the idea that no one thought they had a decent squad doesn't seem to hold much water. I will acknowledge they were playing badly when he took over but from November onwards there was hardly a massive uptick in form. It seems that the team was underperforming and not doing as expected. And that's a fair bit of time to get it right in a season. And as you ignored he had a massive helping hand from Covid. Rotherham having to play so many games in succession, Sheff Weds without their new manager due to Covid, the points deduction. Any one of those didn't happen and it most likely would have been a different story.