Reminds me of the Dunn - Lampard debate. At one time it was Dunn who was England U21 captain and perhaps looked the better bet. It didn't quite pan out that way mind...

Well given how injury prone our defence is we would need a heck of a lot of cards to make this happen! We'd need to permanently play with 10 men. Fulham got the better of this deal. Parker is overrated as a coach who had been bailed out by a very strong squad (for this level). Mind you Bournemouth have made some poor managerial decisions since Howe. Appointing the number 2 never works, and then the guy who took Boro to near relegation. And I think they are continuing this trend with the appointment of Parker.

And the more I think about it, the crazier it seems. I can't recall any manager being so clueless about the team and formation. We've had plenty of bad managers and their plans didn't work, but a manager with seemingly no plan? It's unprecedented. Thinking to some of the turgid Rovers teams I have seen, all have had a plan, albeit a not very good one. Ince, Coyle, Souness in the latter half of his last full season. All had a plan and a team who you knew mostly who would be playing. And whilst none of those plans worked great, there was something to fix and build upon by the new manager. Whereas we are just heading along blind with no idea of what we are trying to achieve. If we don't know that, it's very hard to fix it to achieve success.

The biggest problem we have, beyond even embargoes and Venkys dithering problematic as those are, is we have no idea of our best team or formation. We aren't looking for the final pieces of a jigsaw, we don't even know what jigsaw we are doing. We've no idea if the plan is 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 (of some kind) wingbacks or any of the other formations that have had an airing over the last year or so. And as for personnel other than Armstrong, who may be off, there's very few guaranteed a start. And even when players play they shift positions. Rothwell and Elliott I lost track of how many positions they played in. Gally and Buckley played right back. Even when players are selected where they play is a lottery. So how the heck are we or those recruiting supposed to know what we need? With the right formation and plan even mediocre signings can be very good as they are utilised to their full potential. The converse is also true - good players in the wrong system or position will perform much worse. Since we have no idea of a plan signings are much more likely to struggle. Incidentally I'm not saying the other issues don't matter. Just we are hamstrung before we even get to them.

Who covers right back in those cases? I know TM thinks Gally and Buckley can do it but really neither should even be considered there

Well if we can't afford to buy or loan anyone in then that's a different matter! Of course in those situations you have to make do with what you have got. But if there is any budget whatsoever for players, loans or permanents, then strengthening our defence would be one of my main priorities. Currently we are woefully under strength there.

Why do we have to take that risk? In fact it is guaranteed to go wrong. Warton definitely won't be fit for the start of the season so that already leaves us short. What season has Ayala not had injury problems? It's not a risk it's near suicidal. Also Rovers don't cross bridges when issues come up. Cunningham (I think, the left back from Cardiff), Dack, we didn't address either of those problems when they came up. We wouldn't do this time either. All good managers build from a solid defence. Ours doesn't and doing so with 3 centre backs, 2 of whom won't be properly fit, is the opposite of building from the back.

The bit in bold I strongly disagree with. Firstly we only have three centre backs who are proven at this level - and even one of those is minimally proven (though I think Warton can hack it in the Championship.) So we are short before you even look at fitness issues. Then you factor in Ayala's record of injuries and the fact he didn't manage double figures for us last year and you think it is very risky. Add in Lenihen's injury problems and and the fact Warton won't be fit at the start of the season and we are far from covered - we are very thin on the ground. Unless I have missed us signing a centre back which renders this post moot, the centre back situation is hugely risky. Two of the three centre backs ate injury prone, two of the three are coming back from long term injuries, the youth players have minimal experience of this level. It's asking for trouble.

This is it for me. Think trouble is really brewing if w are resigning players the manager doesn't rate.

A few factors to consider on Ben. On one hand it is great he has done well on the international dtage. It shows there is some ability and it will do his confidence, reputation and price tag no end of good. All that said he hasn't done much for Rovers. Even if we do a TM and reset the clock at the start of last season (although again I am not sure we should ok this one either) he still has had a pretty indifferent season. He's looked ok at best im championship and not even a guaranteed starter. It might be Ben isn't really suited to English football. Maybe he would thrive, or at least do better, elsewhere. Not all players suit all leagues and teams. So whilst losing him for a small fee wouldn't be great and compound the terrible business, it's not going to be the same as losing Armstrong or any of our other key players. It's more of a what a muck up by TM rather than it something that will badly hurt the team. Especially since there is no guarantee or enough evidence that he is particularly good as yet.

I'm not quite sure how much he deserves any of those adjectives. I mean he didn't captain us in the sole successful season under TM or the first season back. He was injured most of last season. I think it's a stretch calling him captain. I struggle with leader too - I mean when did he show leadership skills. Commitment yes, but leading others? As for legend on what basis or planet? Neither the ability, longevity or part of enough success to get anywhere near this moniker. I mean people don't talk about Duff being a legend despite being utterly brilliant in his latter years for us, nor Berg despite him being part of our two most successful stints of recent times. Looking closer to the present Rhodes despite his ton of goals isn't classed as a legend either. And Evans certainly isn't despite being here for a very long time. So how come Bennet should get it. For trying hard? (Not championing all of these for legend status at all, just for comparisons sake.) I would struggle to find a single reason why you would call Bennett a legend. Some people are far too easily pleased.

Never in a million years did I think we'd be discussing Ben having an international debuts, much less a positive one. Don't get me wrong I am pleased for the lad but my main reaction is one of utter surprise.

Wow it's slow when we are arguing over the dubious merits of Fletcher. Got to say this seems like a Coyle mk 2 season on the cards. Maybe it's just me but I feel limited and late transfers only once we have sold Armstrong (and minimal amounts being reinvested.) There's the same lack of optimism around the place and a split fan base on the manager. All far too similar to be comfortable really.

Personally I don't think he is that good in the ring. He's not quite got the presence of a Vader - he lacks a certain menace. Of course this could be in part how badly he is booked, WWE is appalling at building characters up on the main roster. But he isn't that good in the ring compared to some big men, not amazing on the mic. Add in the booking and lack of threat and he's meh for me on all fronts. How many really good matches has he had for example? Yes that is bizzare on all levels. What are they thinking with their start stop pushes. No planning at all it seems. Indeed. That would be mental. If they can't work well with performers like that then they really will struggle. Interesting. Given how much they are struggling whilst holding the best hand of cards you could see why. Always thought giving it to Triple H would massively help them.

Hmm comes across as quite obtuse this. I'll ignore the last paragraph as it's already been answered. But you say teams won't spend much money - neither will we! And off the top of my head apart from the relegated three there are a number of clubs with bigger wage bills than us who can outbid us - Bournemouth, Forest and Swansea come to mind. And given we can't even extend existing contracts - the evidence suggests - even clubs with comparable wages can probably outbid us. Heck even before the taps were turned off we got outdone by Preston for Bauer. So all the evidence points to him having better options. To say otherwise is wishful thinking.

@DE. Yeah there's some real head scratchers in the release. I keep saying it but they waste so much of what has been done in NXT. Black has a great character and is a good performer too so it's criminal he has been wasted. Looking at his battles in NXT and you realise how much they are missing. Murphy is another talented performer and as you say, was doing everything right and yet still is released. It's an odd do, as again it doesn't seem to be on merit whatsoever. Talent, performance, character - not sure any of these criteria are being considered in the releases. Riott another criminally underused. Riott squad were easily the best and most over women's tag team at WM and should have won. Odd decision again. I will say Braun is one I am not too bothered about as find him boring and not really a main event level player. That said given he was in the title picture at Backlash it speaks of really poor planning and unusual decision making by WWE. As for low ratings. Years of short termism, under using talent and poor story telling is coming home to roost. A bit more coherent planning and consistency and I doubt half their problems would exist. Interestingly watched NXT (am a week behind on the Network) and it was a great show. Three really good matches including a great title match, storyline advancement and development, stuff to look forward to. It was great. A bit more of that on the main roster and it would be in a stronger place.

£10 million does seem a little low, even factoring in his contract situation and weaknesses. Definitely won't be more than £20 though, not a chance unless someone gets daft and desperate. If I were looking at this dispassionately from a non Rovers point of view I would say 15 to 16 million is a fair price.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-57322352 Couldn't find the appropriate topic but the odious two hat fits in this one pretty well. Bradley Orr continuing to be a prized and utter pillock.

I think this hits the nail on the head. For years they have criticised defensive tactics, two banks of four, defending deep. Now when this sort of stuff is more in fashion they have backed themselves into a corner. They can't champion what they criticised and so new terminology needs to be invented.

Indeed. Two of the four playoff teams didn't have parachute payments showing it is not the magic ingredient needed for promotion. Not that the clown will ever be called out on it. No arguments here. Although with our advantages - fan base and academy, 4 years in the job and being bullet proof even with the loons in charge you would think the conditions are there to be a bit closer to that model.

Glad Brentford went up. More money for us and proves TM talks bull saying you need £109+ million to get promoted.

Well that's cracking logic isn't it? I mean we beat Manure under the odious one at their place. Didn't make him a good manager though. Terrible logic. They were a damn sight nearer then we were. Which kind of suggests he is a better manager. Factor in where they were last season and it's a pretty good one for them. And even if it isn't, we aren't in a position to boast. Yes it is a rather big prediction. Wonder what sort of evidence could have printed such a conclusion.

Yes it is the same old argument because the argument is they are improving the clubs that they are at! You say we need a better manager - these guys are proving they are better managers by getting better results with the teams they are in charge of. I mean I'm not too sure where to go with this when you ask for a higher quality of manager, and when it's presented to you with evidence you dismiss it as "bla". Perhaps it's the boring football bit that puts you off. I'll be honest I find winning football much more palatable than good football, and it's hardly as if we get an entertainment masterclass as it is. Asking for winning with style is a huge ask, and maybe unrealistic with our budget. If I had to chose one it would be winning every time.

You mean two blokes who have had their clubs doing significantly better than us in a fraction of the time spent at the club? Am happy with the next Eddie Howe too but any competence - old school or new - would be very welcome.

Yeah that's a fair summary of the season, although it still lands us in the place of not knowing our best team or system! It's ironic that when we did have a plan it was a terrible one. But I do wonder if the lack of a plan is hurting us even more than having s bad one that can be amended and improved upon? As it is at least we would know what we are trying to do and what we are recruiting towards. As it is the current uncertain mess has us utterly adrift when it comes to recruitment. It's also worth noting that even with this plan TM has never recruited to a plan and just brought random players.