Thing is 19 games is not a bad run. Even knocking off this season, and just thinking of last season, 17 games is not insignificant, that's a third of the season, which cannot be ignored. Added to which we've begun this season in line with how we finished the previous and I'd be very worried. Factor in a chaotic transfer window and then starting poorly in 2 games - in conjunction with everything beforehand - and it looks very poor. It reminds me of the end of Hodgeson's first season/beginning of his last - there's often continuity. I'm not sure we can just give a clean slate each new season either. If it were the other way round, doing badly, but having 3 seasons of solid success behind him, we wouldn't be ignoring the previous. I'm not sure just because the latter previous was bad means that we should just discount it. That said, if you didn't get rid in the summer, you do have to give him a bit longer. They should have bit the bullet at the end of last season. As they didn't they have to give him a bit more time, though for me the emphasis has to be on bit. Another 4-5 games floundering, then alongside last season's terrible ending, we really need to get rid imo.

"It’s early season, I don’t think central defence was a problem. “I thought they applied themselves well. “They all need to develop relationships and when Lenihan gets himself fit and comes back then he will have to compete to get in the team.” Quotes from TM about today's game. Absolutely astounding, showing he has no clue as to what is going on. 3 centre backs, one of whom is very injury prone, and another is on loan, and you don't think this is a problem? We're already down to zero cover. There's no room for injuries, suspension or lack of form. All in all, that TM is happy with this suggests he has completely lost the plot.

How many games would you give out of interest. It's something like 17 points from 19 games, or the other way round. That's a long period of bad form. How much longer do you reckon is fair?

A few thoughts from today's game, albeit from someone who didn't watch it. Firstly, Fulham would've been nervous after last week's loss to Barnsley. All the pressure would have been on them as a team coming down from the prem, one of the promotion favourites, yet having received quite a beating in their first game. Added in Parker's lack of experience, I felt it wasn't a bad time to play them and get something from them, so a bit disappointed we didn't get a point. Secondly, selection and substitutions are odd. why no Cunningham? Bereton on the wing was never going to work. No Travis meant we were always going to struggle to retain the ball, and it would further imbalance us. Downing has never really played left back and was another poor move. Dack isn't a central midfielder. Add in Bennett at right back that meant we ended the game with at least 4 players out of position, and a total imbalance of artists to grafters. The scale of the imbalance and shoehorning people in is ridiculous - I cannot think of a team not in the midst of an injury crisis who would do this. All of which suggests TM has lost the plot. The lack of shots on target is a concern as we rely on our attacking play to get us out of trouble. I appreciate there were a few other chances, but it hardly sounds as if there were tons, and on top of our comical at times defending, you feel it's a recipe for relegation. Overall we need things to change soon, but I feel TM has lost it.

How many players out of position by the end? At least 4. One or two is bad enough but 4 is shooting ourselves in the foot and is seriously unprofessional

Looking for a bit of help regarding Rovers programmes. I've got a load of old programmes from Rovers games dating mainly from 1997-2008 (with a few outliers) which I don't really have the space for anymore Does anyone know where might be a good place to potentially sell them? I'm not exactly sure there's a huge market for Rovers programmes but thought it worth investigating. Any help/advice/interest would be really appreciated.

Voted neither good nor bad. On paper the team looks better but the squad very unbalanced. It obviously does depend how the new signings do but I can't remember a season where it so desperately hinged on a couple of signings doing well. If Tosin and Gally do well.in the short term we are in a better position. If either turn out to be duds however we are totally stuffed.

Either way it doesn't put the manager in a good light. In your scenario either the clique or younger players are influencing TM which isn't a good situation! Funny how by and large good managers are able to manage characters but weaker ones struggle. It's also possible and shows TM didn't manage Charlie well prior to this. However it's a bit odd if TM only decided Mulgrew was past it on Saturday. Surely the writing was on the wall and a summer is the best time to transition? Why keep him as captain if this was the case? Whatever the reasoning it looks like a mismanaged last minute panic. Thank goodness Mulgrew wasn't that good anymore or it'd be an even bigger mess.

Whether it is wages, a fall our or a planned ruthless move by TM on one level it doesn't look good at all. If it's wages we're really stuffed as there's no room to bring anyone in. The budget must be appalling especially given we sold Raya (allegedly on top of the Gally budget). This suggests there's no opportunity to take advantage of the market or to get cover in any emergencies that may occur. Perhaps it's a falling out. In which case I wonder if there's any of the dressing room behind TM. The young players who are slated probably won't be too keen on TM and if he annoys his inner circle as well it could be awkward. Or it was planned. In which case that makes the Charlton game and the captaincy a very odd situation and isn't that planned. Who doesn't replace the leadership and central defender slot when they know it's going? Any way if happened it was a mess. The positive is Mulgrew is finished at this level so it's not a loss on the playing side. Just a sad indictment of how Rovers do things these days...

I don't think I've ever seen such poor long term planning. Also factor in Mulgrew is finished (unsure of contract situation) Graham will be coming to the end of his career, ditto Downing, and possibly Johnson as well. That is a lot of changes for a team that failed to get in an extra centre back and an experienced keeper.

Yes there does seem an air of panic and short term-ism about the whole of our transfer dealings. All 3 defensive reinforcements likely won't be here next year, which is terrible for continuity, whilst the midfield options also have a limited shelf life. As you say, the keeper situation is very odd and only a step backwards - like for like, but with less benefits for us. Perhaps most worrying of this transfer window is our inability to get deals through.

Had a bit more time to reflect and again think it comes down to our ambitions as to whether it was a good window. For a club trying to stay in the Championship it was probably a pretty good window, for a club trying to kick on to top 6/8 it was much weaker. Keeper: 3/10 This has to be a fail for me. We replaced a young keeper who flaps and doesn't command his area, but with loads of potential, for a keeper who is no more experienced, flaps and doesn't command his area (by all accounts) and who cares about the potential, because he is gone in a year as it is a loan. If Mulgrew being shipped out to Wigan is telling on his ability, I'd suggest this works in reverse for our new keeper. Added to which it is a horrible use of a loan. Loans are there to get something better that you otherwise couldn't afford. Neither of these boxes are ticked, and as the only keeper we have, he's a guaranteed starter, limiting the number of effective loans we can have in the squad. Poor decision imo and a regression. Defence: 5.5/10 Better back 4, yet depth of defence is still worrying. Whilst it'd be hard to get worse than last year's back line options, we've nevertheless improved. We have a good quality left back and with the thin cb options the assurance that the liability Williams is (at lb) will not play there again. Similarly the City lad cannot be worse than Mulgrew and Rodwell so the back 4 shapes up well. Worryingly though there is no cover whatsoever. Williams is ok as a 4th choice centre back but I suggest he can do a job there, like Evanswood in midfield, and to be the first option called on when one of our centre backs is missing - which will happen with injuries and suspensions - is too big a drop in quality for a team with top half aspirations. Worryingly, he's the only one we can call on, without playing people out of position. Centre back is one of the key places you struggle to play out of position, and with virtually no cover here, and all youngsters out on loan, we're asking for trouble. Similarly no cover at right back is huge as well. Bennett is our reserve right back choice. This has two problems as a) he is not very good there, and b) that means he is less likely to play in midfield where he is decent. In fact, Bennett coming in for Johnson or Travis when injured/suspended would still make a rather strong 2 sitting midfielders. Our lack of defensive depth though means this is unlikely to happen though. Frustratingly, we start the whole process over again next summer when Cunningham and Tosin leave, leaving our paper thin defence, non-existent. Midfield 8/10 Losing Reed was a huge blow. And whilst Johnson is good, he's not as good as Reed. He is however a big upgrade on Evanswood, which is really positive. Similarly Downing is a signing I really like as he gives us lots of tactical options. He gives us lots more width and balance when played wide left, whilst also for games where less battlers are needed could slot into the 2 defensive midfield slots and dictate play from there. Sadly at 34 it seems a one season option, and we don't know whether his wages could be put to better use elsewhere. That said, if used astutely I feel Downing could be a really clever signing and have a big impact for us, whilst Johnson means we're so much less limited in defensive mid it's untrue. The fly in the ointment is both are comfortably the other side of 30, which along with the defence leaves a huge rebuilding job in the next 18 months, which may have been better to avoid. Quality wise though, I'm impressed. Strikers 6/10 We're in a much stronger position than we were with Samuel and Bereton not looking like cutting it in this league, that left only Graham as a viable striker. Gally at least has shown he is decent at this level and does give us another reliable option. Most importantly it keeps the 4-2-3-1 formation that suits Dack so well, making it a really important capture. Given Graham's age, alongside being the only reliable striker we had, this to me was a crucial signing. The big question is can Gally replace Graham - is he good enough? My gut reaction is no, but a useful second striker, which isn't really what we were after £12 million down the line. So yes, better in terms of squad and options, but the fear is it's not quite good enough. Overall a decent window and not the disaster it was shaping up to be. Perhaps in defence especially the Charlton game was a blessing in disguise. The big problem is however, I'm not too sure it was good enough. Certainly not for a top 6/8 table team but more to the point there's a few holes and weaknesses that could really let us down and threaten us with relegation. An injury to Graham, or any of our first 4 defenders and things look very risky indeed.

Agreed. Better than last season. However... This is one of the problems. The other problem is there will be injuries and suspensions - defenders do pick up a fair few bookings - and we are rediculously thin on numbers and quality beyond these 4. As for the window overall depends what you rate it against. Some of Venkys worst and last January - excellent. A team aiming for top 6 - poor. I'd say it's treading water. We avoided a disastrous window and the defence looks marginally better - although unconvinced any improvement on the keeper front. We've strengthened up top in options and Johnson looks a good player. That said I feel he is a downgrade on Reed and there's a lot of pressure on Gally to come good. Being better than Bereton isn't enough. Most worrying for me is a) how light we are defensively and b) how short term our window has been. All 3 key defensive signings , plus our 2 miss may need replacing next year. Given how slow we do transfers and deals it feels like we've deferred rather than defused the time bomb. And if injuries in defence or a few odd selections occur we may not have even done that.

Either TM has some deals done that please fans and buy him some time. Or he has done the impossible and made fans sad Mulgrew is leaving..

A left back is good but that leaves me with the fear that may leave Bennett unhindered at RB and Mulgrew getting a fair amount of game time. Not that I'm complaining too much on this Bell hasn't stepped it up. Tbh I feel TM was unfortunate with Bell, lb of the league 1 team of the year, great rep, on the cheap with a fair bit of potential. Sadly the potential or thinking ability hasn't developed anywhere near what expected. A permanent transfer for one of the defensive incomings is a must unless we want another problem summer next year.

No but having 2/3 windows to do so generally helps. And to still be floundering at the end of the 3rd window is pretty poor going. (response to TM not you!)

Whilst loans are better than nothing that would mean next summer we would need 2-3 centre backs (Tosin Mulgrew and incoming player replacement) and a new keeper. And that's before any other areas of the team are considered! Nothing like forward planning

Irons in the fire... but didn't work out. Too much wage demands etc. It looks like we're active . Maybe I'm just badly burned by the defenders are coming quote! Regarding frustration etc. TM is highly secure in his job, Venkys won't sack him, he appointed his own boss, and the owners are a very legitimate and convenient excuse for lack of transfers alongside FFP. I don't think TM has to worry too much on that score.

Or TM is saying what we want to hear. Not saying you are wrong as communication from the club is very hot and miss but it's very much a possibility that TM is trying to placate fans.

Not sure I would believe him. "Defenders are coming" the real meaning being (take your pick/vote): - things are fine but that will shut the fans up - but that will mean upsetting the lads, can't leave Charlie and Benno out, so change of plan - but Venkys won;t let me. Either way it means I don't really believe much he says these days whatsoever. Another one corrupted by the madhouse.

Or doesn't want to upset the inner circle.

If switching off is a big no no (agree on that) than I can't see how you want Bennett at RB - he switches off so much it is untrue. I've yet to see Bennett to the defensive stuff well at RB and Nayambe has better pace and defensive solidity both key attributes to a RB.

Nayambe is a solid RB and could be a very good one. He has all the attributes. As well as getting better at signing players we have to see more of our academy graduates developing to their potential. Being played 2nd choice behind a midfielder and unde Mulgrew's leadership isn't going to help Nayambe reach that potential.

How is EB not an issue. He lost his man on numerous occasions and looked ropey the entire match. In fact more often than not when he plays there he is the weak link. Genuinely what does he offer at RB? He's a defensive liability.

You'd have to think so. In a loan deal the player has to be substantially better otherwise you get no benefit. You take the pain and risk of developing them but don't see the reward. Clearly he isn't vastly better than Raya in first watch so it makes no sense. Esoecially when Raya arguably has as much experience and so much potential (admittedly unfilled as yet.) If it was necessary to fund other positions again it's be a mistake but you'd see their thinking - but there's not a permanent deal in sight. Mind you TM is poor at developing young players - Nayambe, Rothwell, Raya and Nuttall (over Samuel);for starters all have the potential to be impacting our squad but haven't really done so.