I think whilst there was a mathematical chance of top 6 it was the right call generally to stick with senior players, although theres room for debate about which players in which positions. Yes we lost to Wigan (like nearly everyone has done since February, bizarrely!) and Barnsley, but won at Cardiff & drew to W Brom. Had those 4 results been swapped, would TM be getting the same grief? (Don't all shout "yes" at once!) That said, I would have played Davenport earlier over Johnson, whose only standout performance was 2and half v Cardiff. And none of this changes the fact that it was a poor performance tonight.

True, but I think we all agree that we're a better side with him in it than we are without him in it.

IIRC, had we won that Wigan game he got injured in we would've gone top 6; had we done, and kept Dack fit, who knows how we might have gone from there? Like I said, fine margins. Tonight though was just disappointing, pure and simple, too many players off their game.

I've not read previous comments, I don't need to as I'm confident what most will say. But as someone who has supported TM staunchly on here, there's no denying that was a disappointing way for our season to end, pretty toothless when we needed to be in their faces. There was no bite to us; obviously the yellows for JRC & Travis didn't help, the latter not showing anything like his normal self. Subs were ineffective this time, and we were too slow to get the ball into the front 3. I still think we can improve from here with TM at the helm as he's had rotten luck with key injuries this season. It's fine lines between success & mediocrity but no doubt there are a tough few weeks ahead. We need to start Davenport on Saturday next to Travis, Gally or BB up front with Arma, Buckley, JRC in an attacking role, and look to blood the likes of Carter, Lewis Thompson & Fisher or Hilton. They're the future, next season & beyond, give them a go now when there's nothing to lose. There's no need for Downing, Adarabioyo (both of whom I like a lot), Bennett, Johnson or Samuel to be selected. TM's got a big job on his hands this summer, not least to get many of you back on board. It's performances like tonight's that give his doubters cause to question his suitability to progress, which is a disappointing way for tonight to have gone for all concerned.

That said, can't grumble if Trav or Arma scoop it.

I went for Downing, he's been a revelation really considering everything, his consistency & fitness are quite something. I'm pretty confident the players would vote him as their POTY for his overall impact on the team's more progressive possession-based game and leading by example.

There was shot of Mowbray leaning over the tunnel wall in frustration after that chance. It hurt him, just as it hurt us. To be fair to Davenport, whilst it wasn't the best of finishes it was also good goalkeeping.

I don't share your obvious confidence I'm afraid, I rather think that with the pressure on him to succeed - and there will be, for all the reasons you mention - he will be an accident waiting to happen. He'll be a target for every opposing manager, telling their players to get at him, get under his skin, put high balls on, force an error. He'll be baited at every ground we visit & by every away fan that comes to Ewood (as & when that's allowed again). I really don't think we need to be inviting that sort of pressure on the rest of the team. IMO we're better off with a solid, consistent, under-the-radar type keeper who can just get on with his job.

That's what we have had with Walton though, and before that Raya, and it's hardly been to universal acclaim in either case. Both have been pilloried on here (sometime overly so IMO) after those changers. Hart would be totally crucified if he did the same. I'm sure there are better, more consistent & less showboaty keepers out there than Hart, whether from lower leagues, Prem reserves or Europe.

Could Gallagher be a cheap improvement on Benteke at Palace? Quite possibly! I'm pretty sure it's not gonna happen though. I think, whether fans like it or not, it's pretty clear that Mowbray is staying. So his priorities for me are: Keep at all costs Lenihan, Travis, Dack, Arma, JRC, Davenport, & Nyambe (preferably on a new contract). Keep - Downing, Tosin (unlikely I know), Graham, Rothwell, Holtby, Bell, Davenport, Wharton, Release - Samuel (a little regrettably), Chapman, Smallwood Listen to offers for (a little optimistically perhaps) - BB, Gally, Williams, Johnson & / or Evans, Bennett Loan out - Buckley, Butterworth, Hilton / Fisher 2 new keepers - a solid permanent (Darlow, Rudd?) & a loan understudy, with the other of Hilton or Fisher being brought through. I'd not be averse to having Walton back as perm, if price is right, but seems unlikely so wouldn't shed a tear. 1 perm LB - Cunningham looked v competent in all aspects of the position. If he can prove hit fitness, he'd be great to have back. CB - 1 perm & 1 loan. Would love Tosin back but unlikely; he'll move permanently to a promoted or lower Prem club, possibly with a buyback clause in City's favour as he could be THAT good. We also need to fully integrate an U23 into the 1st team squad. I'd hazard Wharton as most likely to compete with a loanee given his experience. In CM and attack, we're well stocked and I don't see there's major surgery needed there that could be done within budget, without a big sale. I would focus instead on improving output from those already here - esp Brereton, Gallagher, Rothwell & Buckley, plus improve Nyambe's final ball & play JRC further forward. I'd only have incomings in these areas to replace any big departures. There appear to be another half dozen returning loanees or U23s who might be considered promising & on the fringes of the 1st team squad in all positions, besides those mentioned above (e.g. Carter, Magloire, Thompson, Grayson, Lyons, Vale). I don't know any well enough as I only see highlights, but I'd be surprised if a couple of them weren't more fixtures in the squad in 12 months time. There's work to do to improve without losing top players. GK, CB and LB are my priorities. It's doable in my opinion, especially with improvement on the training ground based on achieving consistency, breaking down stubborn defences & not throwing away leads so often through silly individual errors.

I agree, finding a little bit more consistency is what's needed. So does that warrant sacking TM & going back to the drawing board? IMO no it doesn't. He's improved us this season compared to last, and last season compared to the one before. It's reasonable to assume therefore (& expect) further improvement next season based on that, which is foreseeable with a returning Dack even if we just make like for like changes elsewhere to replace loanees & out of contracts. It's not guaranteed of course, nothing is. But I think sticking with TM is preferable because he has shown tangible season-on-season improvement overall. I recall last season it being said, correctly, that without Dack or Graham we'd have been down amongst the dead men due to over reliance on their goals. This season, whether enforced or through choice, we've not had either playing for over half the season, yet we're still in a better position now (places and points) than last season. That must indicate a better overall strategy in other areas, so I fail to see how that cannot be construed as improvement overall, and that's even with 2 expensive misfiring forwards. Clearly it's not sufficient improvement for some, ergo calls for a change. But I think that would be an unnecessary backward step when, overall, improvement has been achieved despite all the club's idiosyncrasies behind the scenes.

So just as Armstrong has hit a rich seam of form this season and thus become a good "money well spent" signing in his 3rd year here, couldn't that also happen with Brereton & Gallagher (I of course acknowledge that their fees were more substantial and agree that their contributions to date have been underwhelming)? I mean, we saw today a glimpse of what Gallagher can do against the side widely considered as the best in the division, and we all saw a big improvement in Brereton post-lockdown prior to his red card. It would be very typical of football for one of them to hit an Armstrong-like run of form and then for their signings not to look as shabby as they currently do, right? I mean few on here - me included - thought Armstrong would become the central figure he has become did we? Might we be talking about Brereton and / or Gallagher in similar terms in 12 months time? Let's hope so!

Thought we gave a good performance today. Pretty even 1st half really, all that separated the teams was a couple of decent Walton saves & a dodgy goal, though we were a bit toothless ourselves. Second half it looked like we could get steamrollered, but after a dodgy 10-15 mins the subs changed the game & from then we should've won. So it feels like a defeat, not just due to the missed chances but the missed opportunities v Wigan & especially Barnsley. There's been a lot said about TM not wanting promotion a d / or not caring, but there's been plenty of evidence these last 2 games that's not the case (not that it should be needed). There is clear progress from last season to this. We're a better footballing side, more fluent, less reliant on one individual. There's work to do, but it's reasonable to think we can get another 5 or 6 points from the last 3 games. If we do, that's a 10% improvement on last season, and that's without Dack for half of it. Same level of improvement again next season & were into the 70s. Yes theres work to do, holes to fill & a bit of balance to find. But I recall at the start of this season many predicting a relegation scrap and we've never been anywhere near it. A few tweaks here & there, reduce individual errors & improve our points tally from winning positions by 20% and well be thereabouts next season. This season was not playoffs or bust for Rovers. TM should be allowed further time to mould the squad, hopefully we keep our main men Lenihan, Travis, Arma & Dack.

There's just a little bit more incentive creeping into this one after tonight's result. If we can pick up tomorrow where we left off on Tuesday night then we've every chance of turning W Brom over. They're a good side at this level but are far from infallible, and have had some very dodgy results & performances this season. So they can certainly be got at; what we need to make sure we do is start with a good tempo, press & dominate them early on, suppress their passing game, avoid stupid mistakes & make sure we take the 2 or 3 good chances that will inevitably come our way. Sounds easy, I know...

I'm not saying there's not work to do, of course there is. And I'm also not saying BB & Gally have been poor only by reference to Dack, of course they have from any viewpoint, especially given their fees. I'm just of the view that continuing with TM is as likely to bring success as is ditching him and gambling on a replacement, and I think I've explained rationally why I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I may be proved wrong, or right, or we may never know. Each to their own eh?

But to give a fair assessment you can't just focus on the bad and ignore the good, or even the outstandingly good. The profit that could ultimately be made on Dack and Armstrong is probably double the losses on Gally & BB, who will still have some resale value (yes, they will!), at least for another 12-18 months. Re the keeper situation, the number of times Raya was pelted on here for his howlers (rightly so) has been forgotten. There was a widely held view of being well rid, too inconsistent, not PL quality. Now he's doing well elsewhere and his cheaper replacement is having a wobble, it's fair game to throw back at TM. Most clubs at this level rely on loans. I don't like it any more than you, but it's a fact. Leeds this season, Sheff Utd last season; loan players in key positions, they don't seem to have done too bad by it. Walton is roughly equal to what Raya was last season, Adarabioyo is an upgrade on last season, Cunningham likewise. They've not been bad loans, though in the latter case we were very unlucky. Replacement loans will be needed in summer, or cheap buys, of course they will. If he gets ones of similar quality to this year, and they stay available for most of the season, Dack returns fit, an U23 or 2 come through like Travis & Nyambe then things can improve further without major money needing to be spent.

Haha, fair enough! Ewood Ace and Amo (I think) couldn't believe there was a discussion to be had, so that point was really aimed at them.

It can, but more properly it ought to be the foundations on which to build success. Now is that likely under Venkys? Perhaps not, but this last 3 years is the closest we've come to being something like a normal club since they arrived & should not be thrown away just because the grass might be greener on the other side.

But Dack has to be part of a balanced debate about the merits of TM's time here doesn't he? He's still a success and a player we all think befits a promotion-challenging team, even if Gally & Brereton have come since and (so far) flopped.

Fair enough, I too wish they'd both come good, or even just one of them. To be fair they may still, bit no-one should hold their breath. But still, it's because TM found Dack that BB & Gally are being compared (unfavourably) with him...

I think I'm giving as good as I'm getting, and am enjoying a healthy debate tbh! I'm getting dodgy looks of disapproval from my wife though... I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion per se, just explain my own. Who knows who will be right??

I've just done a quick straw poll of 3 workmates, 1 Utd, 1 City, one Everton with leanings towards Bristol City. They all agree Pulis is a busted flush, was always awful to watch and can't even get results anymore. All agreed they'd rather have TM, who at least tries to play football (their assessment, not mine). Not definitive I know, but it seems there is a debate to be had about TM v TP. Furthermore, I think it shows how much fans can under appreciate a manager who is actually doing a solid job. Another workmate who supports Leeds said we were v competitive on Saturday from his perspective, certainly until their 3rd goal, and were just unlucky & less clinical than Leeds were. TM is doing a good job in most peoples' eyes in the wider footballing world, in the face of no small amount of adversity, albeit whilst not pulling up trees; I often think fans are perhaps understandably over critical of their beloved club to be able to be a bit more objective and see the bigger picture, preferring instead to focus intensely on the areas of desired improvement and gloss over the successes almost as though they're an irrelevance.

Look, if we had avoided Dack's injury, or Cunningham's, who knows? We had a very competitive 14 but to lose 2 from it for such large parts of the season killed us. Despite that and despite misfiring forwards, we were still in the hunt until last week. A couple more timely goals and we still would be. It's fine margins. Take Phillips out of Leeds, Mitrovic out of Fulham, or Grabban from Forest, and they're struggling for top 6, no question. So is Mowbray actually that bad compared to his competitors? No, he isn't. Give him this short close season, get Dack back, let him finish what he's started re overseas recruitment, bring through another couple of Under 23s, & maybe even find a nugget like Dack or Armstrong & go again.

I take your point, but I just don't have confidence that lightning would strike twice in that respect and would rather let TM continue at this moment in time. As I just said to Stuart, I'm not saying it's not possible to improve on TM, just that it's unlikely that we would. It'll be much harder for Venkys to find someone to improve on TM than it was to find someone to improve on Coyle.

Yes it's possible, of course it is. But is it likely? No, in my opinion. Was it likely that TM would improve on Coyle's tenure? God yes, he certainly couldn't have done any worse!