Fans eh?! ?

Butterworth is injured I think.

I take it you're halfway through your pre match pint Stuart and bemoaning the fact that half of it has gone, rather than looking forward to the other half that's left?! ? A blend of youth and experience is what most managers look for in their team isn't it? Buckley can offer drive and spark can't he, and Downing the crosses? Shame I can't be there tonight but I'll be keeping a keen eye on things from deepest darkest Cheshire! COYB!!

TM certainly trusts his squad (as he should), as he'll be sure to want to avoid a bad result & is leaving himself open to huge criticism if his wholesale changes backfires. Quite brave really.

Nope, I won't. I'd say by then that we need to have around 5 wins and a couple of draws and to see good performances in order to be able to say he's on track & think positively about his performances & choices. 17 points from 12 games is near play-off challenging, so only slight improvements would be needed going forward from there to make us realistic top six material, be that through coaching or good use of the Jan window (learning from last season). If he's not in that ballpark, then he'll have little defence.

I'm afraid I disagree for reasons stated above. And although his back 4 against Charlton wasn't strong, the Boro game will likely see 3 different players to those, 2 of them through choice (Tosin & Cunningham). I would like to see Nyambe too rather than Bennett, which I do agree is a mistake on TM's part & something that may come back to haunt him.

Sorry Stuart how do you draw that conclusion from what I said? I've not said don't judge him or that he can't be sacked, I've just said don't do it 2 games into the new season. His L1 performance is there on record as being one of the best ever achieved in that division. But it is not something that is relevant to judging progress made this season compared to last. And his Championship record here overall is not abysmal, especially in the context of working at this club from the state it was in when he arrived. I'm sorry that's just hyperbole and wrong. I don't just have the stats right now but in his 3 months or so pre-relegation i think our points per game haul improved to near play-off requirements if stretched across a full season, and last season we finished with a comfortable 60 points. Of course we could say we wanted more, or that we should have got more with better game management (hence the more game-savvy experienced players brought in this summer), but in neither case can it be described as abysmal. Like I said, he is trying to change things, and deserves the chance to see the fruits of his efforts sink or swim. Certainly longer than 2 games this season. Edit: beaten to it by Pail Mani!

But this season is a different one to last season, so they cannot be fairly compared. There are 6 different 'unknown' opponents (2 of which we've already played), 6 new first 11 players to integrate, a more possession based game being attempted (which most on here agreed was necessary to progress), & some fairly significant new rules to adapt to. I'm not making excuses, just stating the facts. I'm also not saying forget the bad run, but neither should we forget the very good runs that came before & afterwards. We should learn from them. But I am saying that if anyone (not just TM) is to be judged fairly then it needs to be on a level playing field. Conflating last season with this season is not comparing like for like. He is trying to change things on & off the pitch from the disorganised shambles this club was when he arrived. He's trying to advance the club on & off the field in a climate of unpredictable ownership & restless natives as a consequence. It's no easy task, hence he deserves the chance of a dozen games to see his ideas & transfer activity put into action. IMO.

I agree Alejandro! I would put a strong team out at first off though TM has already said that this is a chance for previous non-starter to make an impression. That said, on paper we should certainly have enough for a comfortable victory across out squad, but we know it often never turns out that way!

Everyone in football looks at fixtures and attempts to predict which will be the tough games & which will be easier, that's happened for as long as the game has existed. Of course that's only an exercise on paper and any given game can veer from the expected narrative at any time for a litany of reasons. However those reasons tend to even themselves out over an extended period of time, hence why I think 12 games (consisting of a mixture of perceived 'hard', 'winnable' & 'easy' games) is a decent timescale which allows for the quirks & anomalies of one or more individual games to be less noticeable when viewed in the wider context. Hence why I think making a judgment call on Mowbray 2 games into this season is unfair.

It was v much tongue in cheek bluebruce. I am very much a glass-half-full bloke so far as TM is concerned, for now at least...

FWIW, I get the consternation on here but Mowbray out? Now? Be careful what you wish for. We all knew when the fixtures were released that it was a very tough 6 games to start to the season, Charlton apart. That's why I'd say he should be given a dozen league games (i.e. twice as many) to show his worth for this coming season. Clearly if he's obviously lost the squad and / or every match after say 8 or 9 games then of course I'd understand him bring potted. I don't think that's an arbitrary target, but gives sufficient time for the squad and league to settle down for everyone inside the club (i.e. Venkys) and outside the club (i.e. us) to assess progress (or lack thereof) and whether or not TM's plans are worth persevering with. If not, there's still enough time for an alternative solution to be found and time enough for that lucky so and so to assess the squad and decide what's needed in the January window.

Mowbray out!

Far too early to make such a finite judgment call on him IMO RV. He had our worst possible defence ahead of him v Charlton yet made 2 good saves after bad defensive errors, and yesterday he was beaten by a worldie albeit he COULD have saved the second (though all shots COULD be saved theoretically). I thought he looked ok against Charlton, enough on here have said he wasn't to blame yesterday that says he at least deserves the benefit of any doubt this far.

Agree with this. 3 league defeats to start the season with would be really tough to pull back in terms of making the top 6. That said, it's a marathon not a sprint and based on most reports yesterday there's reasons to be positive. Jury still out on Walton, hopefully once he beds in & becomes used to playing with those ahead of him we will see his benefits over Raya. Am pleased to hear Tosin & Del looked solid. It looks like any combination between Tosin, Del & Lenihan could be decent at Champ level, esp with decent fullback protection which I think Nyambe & Cunningham will provide. I'm not so anti-Bennett as others, but he's not a RB. Think we'll see JRC as the season progresses too from the sounds of things. Hypothetical question for those there yesterday; if that back 5 had played against Charlton, would we have lost that game? My suspicion is not, but I'd be interested to hear your views. As for mids, mixed reviews it seems. Am disappointed to hear Johnson was off the pace, but then if that was due to him & Trav losing steam due to being against a 3 then that's a tactical issue for me rather than anything against those 2 specifically. I'm most worried about us going forward, which I'm not sure many of us had much concern about 10 days ago. We seem to lack a cutting edge / end product to our approach play. Without stating the obvious, we need to find a couple of good front 4 combinations out of Dack, Armstrong, Rothwell, DG, Gallagher, Downing, Chapman & BB. I think Oldham is a good chance to experiment there, I would certainly give BB 60+ mins as a striker & Chapman on the wing. I don't think there's reason to panic yet, but there's work to do at both ends of the pitch. Get a decent freebie CB and find a cutting edge, and I can see us shooting up the table (especially once August is behind us).

We started 4 out of 5 new signings on Saturday anyway, so that's another myth debunked.

Exceptional world class ones have, yes. Incidentally so too has Tosin, who is the only CB Mowbray signed this window so he clearly expects big things from him despite his youth. But that doesn't fit the narrative...

Lenihan certainly didn't appreciate it, he gave Mulgrew a proper dirty look once Walton had made the save.

I think the way he speaks about young players is more just his way of talking and / or a sign of him being from a certain generation, rather than anything malicious or anti-youth. I think picking on his terminology in this context is just another example of certain people having decided TM is no good for us & using it as another stick to beat him with. We had one of the youngest teams / squads in the league last season, and that's even when you consider that Mulgrew, Graham, Conway, & Bennett were all well over 30 & got plenty of appearances. In his time he's given Championship debuts to Raya, Rothwell, Butterworth, Travis, Magloire, Davenport, & Buckley, and has since brought their U23 manager into the first team set up which must be to assist their further integration into the first team squad. I agree that his use of Nyambe & Rothwell was a bit disappointing / surprising and certainly don't think he should be immune from criticism in some respects, but such criticism should be balanced. Overall I think the criticism he gets for his treatment of young players is overhyped & over analysed by some on here.

Cheers. I should've guessed! ?

https://www.rovers.co.uk/news/2019/august/btp-club-statement/ I don't get to away games but I guess this will have resonance for many of you. It's good that the club are taking a stance on this, but sad that what is (hopefully) a mindless minority are raising the profile of the club in a very unacceptable way. Keep out of trouble fellas, there are some d*ckheads out there.

So 4 out of 6 signings you're alright with or better, including your no 1 priority, yet you only score the window 3/10? That doesn't make sense.

Defensively our options are: GK Walton, Leutweiler. Potential to be better than last season, but time will tell re Walton. RB Nyambe, Bennett, JRC, Travis. I hope in that order, at least this season. IF Nyambe fulfils his potential & is regularly picked, I think that reasonable. LB Cunningham, Bell, Downing, Williams, Hart. Plenty of cover there, definitely upgraded. CB Lenihan, Tosin, Williams, Nyambe, Grayson, *Magloire, *Wharton. I agree 1 CB short, and reliant on Tosin being good (I'm hopeful given his pedigree). Hopefully this is marginally better than the end of last season. Could be improved further with freebie (eg Lynch). I think a foursome of Nyambe, Lenihan, Tosin or Wiiliams, Cunningham is far better than what started v Charlton. Or a quintet of Nyambe or Bennett, Lenihan, Tosin, Williams, & Cunningham / Bell / Downing would also be decent for this level. I'm not sure either of those lineups will figure on Saturday because good defences work as units. Cunningham has just arrived, so I for one would understand if he does not play on Saturday. I don't know why some don't accept that that would be legitimate. It can't be because TM doesn't start new signings because 4 out of 5 started on Saturday. So it must be because he wants his defenders to have an understanding of each other's game & to work as a unit. As for the window overall, I'd give it 6 out of 10 just now, which could fall to 4 or rise to 8 as the season progresses. I was hoping to be able to say 7 or 8 at this time, so that's disappointing but I see plenty enough not to call it a shambles / catastrophe / shambolic. I like Johnson, Downing & Gallagher & I'm not bothered that Walton, Tosin & Cunningham are loans. It's the modern way and it gives our many younger prospects the dangling carrot of a route into the first team in 12 months time, which they wouldn't have if those signings were permanent. We can't have it all ways. We either buy perms (which risks cutting off youngsters' routes into the squad), or we sign loans & keep the youngsters interested. People want signings but the same people complain if he doesn't play youngsters, but there's only 11 players can play at any one time. Maybe I'm being too generous to TM. He makes mistakes but I like to be optimistic. I'm not going to say top 6, but I think top 10 is realistic and with a good run that could be improved. With our options & cover, I think it unlikely we'll be struggling against relegation.

Cheers Skip. Any idea if we gave them a closer game than the scoreline might suggest, standout performers or injuries? Any sign of Samuel or Williams? Sorry for the bombardment!

I can't advocate Mowbray out now. Totally the wrong timing, though I do get the concern and share a lot of it. The time to next judge him (as opposed to just discuss or debate his actions) is after 10 league games, when matters inside the club & in the division have settled down a little. There is no doubting that this week is massive for him in terms of signings in & out, loan or permanent, then he has a tough looking run of fixtures to negotiate. I think by then if we've been served up with more of the same & there's no sign of progression then at best he'll be on very thin ice with most fans (me included), if not the owners. I still believe he will actively look to improve the team this week with at least 1 solid CB. Not bothered if permanent or on loan. He's more than hinted at such, some ITKers on here have posited it and we certainly need it! TM deserves huge credit for what he's done to date, now he needs to push on or accept the consequences. He'll know that, having been in the game do long. And I really don't think he'll be immune from a sacking either if Venkys aren't happy with the season's developments.