Atko's Engine

This could be a problem for some clubs & their creative accounting techniques... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49600851

"Rovers fan" my arse.

This is in the Bolton thread Stuart, so I guess Matty's referring to them...

It's a bit harder to defend a second ball when it pings back off the crossbar and lands at the feet of an opponent, but I take your point. The key is to stop it arriving in the first place, and Arma was close enough to the ball when it was pulled back to have cut out the cross-shot had he been more alert to the obvious danger.

I agree that the first goal was all on Cunningham, the second on Arma and the third on Lenihan (top finish by Phillips mind). Just watched Sky's highlights on YouTube. So biased, they show none of our second half chances but 3 if WBA's. Don't know why I'm surprised though...

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see how it all pans out. We either improve on last season significantly (acceptable), marginally, not at all or deteriorate (all unacceptable). I think there are credible signs that it can be the former and that TM deserves a fair crack of this season's whip to try; but I wholly understand the concern of others who don't share my optimism given that TM is not perfect and that's fine. But canning him and rolling the new manager dice now would be counter productive and too risky in my opinion when, season on season, this club has improved to something approaching normality under his stewardship.

Can't argue with most of that, though I've never said or implied let's just rely on kids who are in the first team now, or on those coming through the Academy. I think we have a right to expect 1 or 2 a season to make the grade, but it's been about blending youth with experience, reinvesting sale proceeds wisely and rebuilding the club from the bottom up. Fortunately we can do that because for all their multitude of mistakes, at least Venkys kept paying to keep Cat 1 academy status.

Well, yes he has, but this is the first season he's started in the same division he finished the previous one in. His aim in his first summer window was to rebuild confidence in an ailing club and to build a squad to get out of L1 at the first time of asking, which he did. His second full season was a very different task, the main aim being to consolidate our position in the Championship, which he did pretty comfortably. That takes a very different set of playing & managerial styles to achieve as the quality of opponent is much stronger. This season (his third full season) is the first time he's starting in the same division he finished in, and this time the aim is top 6. Again, that takes a very different type of approach & better quality of player to achieve, and of course the jury's out on whether he can achieve that. So to therefore say, just because he's been here for 3 years, that he's had 3 years to gel together a squad with a style (as opposed to just a team spirit) sufficient to get promoted to the PL is a little disingenuous. Yes some clubs have bounced through with consecutive promotions, but they're the exception rather than the rule. I don't expect to dissuade you (or anyone else) from your opinion, which of course you are entitled to; I'm just giving mine, which I like to think is pretty even handed and realistic, all things considered.

I don't presume to have wisdom above anyone else, just think I have a balanced opinion that can see the bigger picture. I've said previously, the next international break will be a good time for a fairer assessment, which I think is another 6 games. I would expect 10 points or more from the next 6 games; 2 or more less than that and our ability to progress ought to be seriously questioned. There may then of course be good reasons for not meeting that requirement (injuries, suspensions, poor officiating) which ought to be factored in, but overall we'll have a better idea if we have the right style, personnel & management staff to progress and whether its appropriate to consider drastic, risky changes.

So equally getting 7 points from our first 6 games isn't a stick to beat TM with, which was (and is) my main point!! ?

Every team in every division will probably have a minimum turnaround of 5 or 6 players every summer so nothing new there. You can still build a stronger squad whilst doing so. Some of the changes you allude to for next season are already happening now. TM is trying to phase the Graham / Dack combo out now in favour of a less direct approach. Johnson should have at least 1 more season in him at this standard. Yes we could lose Dack, but the money received for him and his relatively indifferent start to this season means he may not be missed that much. Meanwhile we have Rothwell, Travis, Buckley, JRC, Butterworth, Nyambe, Magloire all in or around the 1st team squad, with Chapman, Vale, Lyons all showing well at U23 level amongst others. The target's not (or shouldn't be) promotion or bust this season for Mowbray, though that should be the bullseye. It should to be organic & tangible improvement from last season, meaning if we don't go up this season then we're better placed to do so the next.

No I'm not the one getting carried away. A "Mowbray Out" thread started after Charlton was getting carried away, as was the "Wagner in" comment on this thread earlier this morning (I appreciate that neither of those were you). Yes 7 points every 6 games would leave us 12 points back after 24 games IF we don't improve our points-to-games ratio and IF whoever's in 6th place after 24 games has the same points-to-games ratio that Fulham have now. But I very much doubt though that either of those ifs will become reality; this league is too unpredictable to draw that conclusion based on a 6 game sample.

I agree that there is nothing for us to be scared of, but that doesn't mean there aren't tougher runs or easier runs of fixtures... and your first sentence was often stated by many on here last season, yet here we are with a supposed better chance in your opinion (I don't disagree). The last 2 league games we've drawn and lost by one goal respectively, both against pre-season frontrunners for promotion. Not disasters by any stretch, and also not typical of the average strength of opponent we will face this season.

Sorry, did Rovers not eye up points there yesterday? That's not my reading of it, as if we weren't eyeing up points why did we high pressed them from KO, force an error & score inside 30 seconds? Ok we ended up losing, but even at 3-1 down we pushed on, got a 2nd, had a 3rd disallowed & hit the post. Hardly signs of a team consigning a game to defeat...

There are no myths. Pretty much everyone on here felt our first 6 game sequence was tough, to say otherwise is rewriting history. Fulham are more than just a team with a rookie manager; they spent £100m and still have a core of players starting that got them promoted last time. Boro are an established top half championship side, albeit on the decline / in transition. Same with WBA, except they have a manager with a very strong pedigree. Cardiff are a big, strong team that work well as a unit, did better in the Prem than most expected & were perhaps (tragically) only a striker away from surviving. They won at OT convincingly last game of the season, and have a manager most on here would have like a shot. Hull was a winnable game; we won it. The only real surprise was Charlton. Given where they are in the table, had that been our 6th game and not our first then maybe we'd have been less expectant of an easy 3 points. Plus we should've won that game anyway and have since replaced 2 of that game's back. So I'd call that a reasonably decent start? Can we follow it up? TM deserves the chance to prove we can.

"Only played 6 games" is exactly why I'm saying let's stick with TM and give him the chance to gel what is a good, young, promising squad into something we can be proud of. Those 6 games were widely viewed as a tough start on paper & so it's proved. But we're not rooted to the bottom on nil points as many on here predicted we would be after Charlton & Fulham, we're a couple of points off from people saying we've had a really good start. Fine margins can go either way of course, but a 3-2 away defeat to round off a tough opening sequence of games is not "sack TM and bring in Wagner / Hughton /Jokanovic / insert-name-of-any-other-manager-who's-achieved-promotion-in-the-last-5-years-here" material. Far more sensible & less reactionary to see where we are at the start of the next international break, once the league's settled down a bit and we've had a fairer spread of matches across which to properly assess our progress (or lack of, as the case may be). I reckon we'll be significantly higher in the table than 17th by then, if not then I'd agree that serious questions need to be asked.

This is why I think our start is far from a disaster, and those who want TM out on the back of it are way too hard and premature in their judgement. He's a steady, solid manager with knowledge, passion & respect within the game. Not spectacular or flashy by any means, but being that won't rebuild this club. There's such a long way to go this season. Those that have shot out of the traps (Swansea & Charlton especially) will almost certainly fall back into the pack. We're taking time to gel & find the right combinations, but there's top 6 quality in our squad in this league if we can find the right system going forward and cut out silly defensive errors at the back. IMO we're not far off being realistic top 6 challengers come March / April, at which point anything can happen.

Only seen the Quest highlights. All 5 goals came from defensive errors. Ours have been highlighted above aplenty so I won't repeat them, but our high press forced a defensive error for Dack's goal, and our second came from a keeper error. So it's not just us that seem to suffer from that malaise, and I agree with Chaddy that Cunningham was fouled for their first, though he should've put it in row Z first rather than try to shield it from the forward. It's disappointing to lose, especially when scoring 2 goals, having one disallowed & hitting the post away from home. Individual errors, missing from the last three games, came back to haunt us and they need to be cut out. I think the international break comes at a good time for us. Johnson & Downing are looking leggy, and it gives TM time to work in training on making a proper defensive unit of our back 5 options and work out the best way to get the most out of our undoubted attacking options. There are definitely positives to carry forwards (esp the likes of Travis, Johnson, Downing, Buckley, Cunningham). There's more to be expected from Arma, Gally, BB, Dack, Rothwell, Graham and I think that will come. The main negatives for me are not working the oppo's keeper enough despite possession, Arma being underwhelming, a lack of game time for Rothwell & a missing link on the right side of midfield; maybe all 4 could be solved at the same time by playing Rothwell there? Overall I think 7 out of 18 points is where I would have put us looking at the fixtures; another couple of points wouldn't have gone amiss, but it's no disaster or platform to say TM cannot achieve success with this squad. We're only 3 points off 6th; I think we can kick on after the break and should look towards getting a minimum of 10 points from the next 6 games, at which point I think it would be a fair time to assess how successful we might be this season.

TM obviously knows there's a talented player in there like we all do, but seeing him day to day considers there is some application missing which keeps him out of the first team picture. It is certainly reminiscent of the Rothwell situation in that he likes his wide players to work hard up & down the line and defend from the front protecting his full back, rather than just relying on his undoubted attacking attributes. This will no doubt be seen by some as TM hanging a young player out to dry, but he was clearly asked the question and he's answered it forthrightly. I don't see a problem with this as clearly Harry knows the situation from their private chats, and you look through the teams that start most games there's no shortage of effort on show. That said, IMO putting Harry on the bench from time to time and giving him a few chances to show what he can do in the last 20 mins of games (preferably when a couple of goals to the good) could prove to be the kick start TM is looking for. Hopefully between now & Xmas he'll get that opportunity, see what he does with it & then take a view in Jan whether he stays & fights for a place or goes out on loan.

Maybe there's also a difference to be drawn between clubs who buy / stockpile players - youth or senior - then loan them out, to the clubs who bring players through their Academy then loan them out for experience. Chelsea have been the worst example for stockpiling senior players, stopping other clubs from buying them but then they barely ever see first team action before leaving the club. They're very different to the likes of us, who tend to only use the loan market to blood youngsters we bring through from youth. Also, imo they should ban clubs signing players then immediately loaning them back. To me it smacks of bigger clubs bullying smaller clubs.

I've not read all the comments yet and didn't make the match, which sounds like the not-so-pretty attritional fayre that Warnock teams usually bring to the table. Sounds like we allowed ourselves to be brought down to their level, which is a bit disappointing but not easy to avoid. You need height against Warnock teams, so I would say the starting lineup was suitable for that to nullify them, but maybe the pace of Arma & Rothwell could've been brought on sooner to give their tiring back line something different to think about. Still, that's now 3 clean sheets & 7 points from 5 games against tough opposition (we should include Charlton amongst them with the benefit of hindsight - look at the table; it's a mad league!). I think most of us would've taken that, W Brom next week therefore makes the difference between a solid start & a good start. I'm really pleased with the shutouts, less so with the goals scored. But I do think there's again some OTT hyperbole on here in that respect. For example, blocked shots are surely shots on target if they're on target when blocked aren't they? We've hit the woodwork what, 5 times this season? Someone said earlier (jhrover?) "bet your house on Rovers not scoring first half at home as we never do"; well I'd be homeless by now as we scored first half against Boro, 1 game ago. Now I get the frustration at lack of goals, pedestrian possession, and to some extent lack of goals from open play, but let's not allow opinion to distort the facts. Good teams don't concede and build from the back. We've found a system that works defensively (which is great) and I don't feel we're THAT far from being a 2-goals-a-game side in an attacking sense. Hopefully with a bit more tweaking, better decision-making around the 18 yard box and perhaps earlier subs to swap height for pace / trickery or vice versa, then we'll achieve more as the season progresses. I'm overall cautiously optimistic that we're going in the right direction. Yesterday was never going to be a classic, let's not pretend otherwise!

I guess staying in Div 1 would be great, given new management & the loss of last season's mainstays such as Buckley, Nuttall, Fisher etc.

Cheers. Doyle's dismissal sounds petulant & unnecessary, hope he cuts that out. Good to hear the 9 men left battled well though.

A similar start to the season as last year, 1 point from 9. What were the sendings off for? Sounds like that was the difference between the sides on the night, rather frustratingly.

Can't make tomorrow as I'm in the Lakes for a long weekend, but I've ummed & ahhed over a few beers tonight about how to line up given Cunningham's unavailability. The easiest way is to straight swap him for Bell (has to be Bell given Hart played for the U23s, and absolutely do not move Williams across), but we know Warnock will pelt Bell with high balls all afternoon if we do that, which I'd not be comfortable with. We could play Downing there with Rothwell ahead of him, as Downing has played LB before I believe. But Warnock will do the same as above, plus we'd lose Downing's positive effect up front. Rothwell may have a stormer, but it's a bit risky relying on Downing in an unfamiliar role. Or we could go 3 at the back, bring Tosin in alongside Lenihan & Deldini, with Bennett / Nyambe / JRC and Downing / Bell as wing backs. But that's too many changes for me, just because 1 guy cant play, though it does bring more height into our back line. It's certainly a dilemma, but I think overall I'd go with Bell in the 4231 formation. Least disruption, and if we can get at them from the off it will hopefully nullify any attempt they make to isolate Bell. Up front I'd go with Graham & Dack, supported by Downing & Gallagher (due to his height & tenacity), with Johnson & Travis obviously. A bit old school I know, but it works for us in tricky matches. I don't think this is a game to experiment in; stick to what the players know & use strength and height to good effect. There's enough trickery between Dack, Downing, Travis & Johnson to do some damage to Cardiff. I'm saying it'll be 2-1 Rovers, Graham & Downing to score. It'll be a bit nervy, not pretty, but that doesn't matter.