Isn't the first 28 in Germany?

The whole thing is a tragic mess and my condolences got to the bereaved family. Ken Livingstone got it absolutely right when he saild that the Brasilian is another victim of the bombers. We live quite close to Stockwell tube station and an acquaintance has said he was in his car when there was a Keystone Cops-style chase between the traffic into Stockwell Tube Station involving at least one uniformed officer who seemed outnumbered by the guys he was chasing. He realised the others excepting the victim were the armed under-cover officers. He did not see any arms but there was a lot of shouting and it all was over very quickly with uniformed officers immediately stopping anyone going into the station when the others had run in. He wondered why he immediately guessed some of the guys running were plain clothes officers and realised that the way the public was getting out of the way with nobody having a go (unlike the rugby tackle attempts on the fleeing would-be bombers last Thursday), made it seem to him that the message had got over to the by-standers that they were police officers. He just wanted to get through and past the incident as he expected (rightly) that the whole area would be closed and sealed off.

I agree about Thorpe but not sure who should make way. At least the rain is sticking better than England's catches.

How sober is Orvil today? Perhaps he's calling anybody with a sun tan Benni!

The crunch is ripping out the Australian tail. This morning is all about holding catches and taking the run out opportunities. If the England performance in the field hadn't been so weak yesterday, this match would be extremely winnable. Instead, assuming the target is 50 runs on from the Australian over night score, the second innings will be the supreme test of the England batting.

MCMC, I agree- a flight of imagination on my part. Just read that the explosives they are using degrade dramatically if not stored in the right temperature/humidity. That would seem to be the likeliest explanation. The fact the intended bombers all ran away and presumably are hiding at sympathisers' will expose more of the network when they are eventually apprehended.

Either London was incredibly lucky yesterday or perhaps the secret service has infiltrated and had nobbled the devices. It seems astonishing that four out of four went off two weeks ago (albeit perhaps the bus bomb had not gone off when intended) and four out of four failed yesterday.

If England make a good start at Lords, it will be a competitive match which the Aussies will shade. If Australia makie a good start, England will have one good session but will otherwise be humiliated.

I would bet odds on Rovers are looking for a second front line striker to play alonside Bellamy so Dickov will be competing with Kuqui and perhaps Matty for a place on the bench. He did what was asked of him last season and with his groin healed is likely to be capable of being even more a handful this season. Interesting poll by that article- get voting lads!

Jim, I think Andy Cole was at Ewood for two and a half years. Are your other numbers as accurate? Two points about his last two transfers- Fulham took over his Rovers contract plus payment of the £1m end of contract bubble Rovers were due to pay. So surely, Cole earned at least as much in wages at Fulham as he did at Rovers? Rovers saved either £3m or £4.5m in wages depending on whether he earned the widely reported £40K or the £73K figure you have suddenly produced. In transferring to City, Cole is being paid up the whole of next year's contracted salary from Fulham- at least £2m. No doubt City are funding Fulham for that pay-out so getting a mere £25K a week is no hardship for Andrew and no bargain for City.

61 is the letter in the cyrillic alphabet which means silence.

Anyone know what the operation Thommo had during the summer was?

Joseph Whitechristian blew up 3,000 during the Irish "troubles". I was in Hyde Park when they blew up the soldiers and horses. Why do you think London reacted so stoically to the outrage of 7 July? The city has had a lot of practise at handling terrorist attrocities over the past thirty years. Joseph Whitechristian massacred 8,000 boys and men in Srebrenica just ten years ago plus were undoubtedly the aggressors (Catholic or Orthodox) in the break-up of the former Yugoslavia.

The 500 leading British Muslim clerics have put aside their own denominational divisions and issued a fatwah declaring suicide bombing a crime and not a route to martyrdom and heaven. And before anyone jumps in, this is simply a reiteration of what is in Koran and not some new invention to please Tony Blair. When did the Irish Churches ever issue so authoritative, united and unambiguous a condemnation of Irish terrorism? Picking up on two threads from yesterday- Chatham House is an independent foreign policy research establishment and not a Government body. Their report focussed on the diversion of British intelligence efforts towards Irish terrorism and animal liberation threats when the threat of Islamic fundamentalism was becoming apparent in the 1990's. As a result, the intelligence communities are very under-prepared for handling the situation in Iraq, Afghanistan and Qaida sympathisers in the West. The report argues that Britain was unable to influence USA policy on Iraq even in areas where the USA was totally half-baked: the preparation and policy for the victory and post-war pacification of Iraq. It argues that Britain's inability to influence the USA Administration to avoid the blundering mistakes made (e.g. there is $8.5 billions of USA Government cash hand outs unaccounted for- quite possibly making the USA military deeply corrupt in the process) despite saving Bush from total isolation on Iraq, has made Britain a uniquely vulnerable target for a violent backlash. The second thread is that Islam is aggressively designed to grow (so is Christianity for that matter if you read the Bible) and nation-phobic. The nation state is very much a Western Christian invention- Iraq itself is a product of map drawing in Whitehall in 1921 and bears little relationship to historic divisions or tribal, ethnic or religious reality on the ground. It is worth pointing out that the current USA Administration owes its election to, and is most influenced by, Christian Fundamentalist sects which: - claim prime sovereignty for God over nation states - refute scientific evidence and wish to set back scientific advance in areas which conflict with their theology - are aggressively recruiting new converts - reveres martyrs - favour physical punishments and the death penalty Sounds familiar? It is trite to say it, but the Christians nut cases are a lot closer to trying to run the world through their man in the White House than the currently much more unsavoury Islamic nut cases. The fundamentalist Christian right cause as much despair for Christians like me as the fundamentalist radical Islamic elements do for the majority of Muslems. A final point, the Koran is a massive assemblage of literature/ revealed truth created over millenia in the same way that the Bible is. Both Holy Books contain material which is deeply disturbing to modern society- according to the Bible, employers should nail the ears of employees to the door for instance (that's in Exodus or Deuteronomy)! The key point is both fundamentally espouse a life of peace, love and piety. The argument that one is superior and the Koran is inimcable with universal suffrage, democracy and equity between the sexes is utterly specious in my opinion. Amongst the most enlightened rulers in Europe were the Moors of Spain who presided over a society of exceptional advancement and tolerance, bequeathing some of the most stunning architecture in the world and, arguably in Aberlane, the philosophical father of the Renaissance. It was the Christians who expelled the Jews and brought in the Inquisition.

If you read the official site, he massively upset the Cercle people by his superior attitude not being matched by superior performances.

This appeared three posts before mine Thenodrog. I think describing it as odious was quite mild.

I'm happy to correct you thenodrog- I wrote: "Three posters have been posting views I profoundly disagree with and whose rantings on a thread about the horrific events in London last week I find odious in the extreme............ ( note the selective editing by you) Not letting the bombers win means not siding with the views of AESF, blue phil or thenodrog." I said nothing about extreme right wing views. I have now reached the point of reading you for your comedy value- the nasty insults for anyone who disagrees with you and then sniffling when they answer back.

I wouldn't normally quote Ken Livingstone but this article from this morning's Financial Times eloquently expresses the sentiments I feel: For the last 10 days, and with extraordinary intensity last Wednesday and Thursday, Londoners have lived out triumph and grief with the eyes of the world on them. A spontaneous city-wide outburst of joy at winning the Olympics, the tragedy of the bomb attacks, the implacable resolve to bring to justice those responsible, and immediate determination from millions of Londoners that the city would not shift from its chosen path all passed in days. "An anonymous Londoner put it best on a wreath. I quote it not simply for its eloquence but because in my ­opinion it expressed how virtually every Londoner responded. The wreath read: “If you are looking to boost morale, our pride, then you have succeeded. If you want to ensure our commitment to our way of life you have achieved much. If you expect ­people to crawl out of smoke-filled tunnels, head to work and otherwise get on with their daily lives you were right. If your aim was to raise our strength and defiance, congratulations. Burning with fear? Not bloody likely.” Libération, the French newspaper, said: “Never has such calm been seen faced with such an event.” London responded in its own way. It was no better than New York or Madrid. There is no competition in the face of barbarity. It was simply different. Particularly to an international business audience I want to explain that difference because it will help them understand the nature of London. London’s character was indelibly marked by being for centuries the world’s greatest port. London simply had more physical connections with the rest of the globe than any other place on the planet. Shakespeare was born in Stratford but he worked in ­London, and his paying audience was those who made their living by trade. Three hundred years ago, one-quarter of those invited to celebrations of the coronation of George II were foreigners living in London. Around this nucleus developed the world’s greatest international financial centre. New York now handles even greater financial volumes than London. But that is due to the weight of the US domestic market; in terms of a truly international centre London still exceeds even New York. There are 1.2m people in London working in financial and business ­services. Many tens of thousands of them do no work connected to Britain’s economy. London is frequently more affected by the movements of the ­economies of east Asia or the US than it is by that of the UK. Around this gigantic port and financial centre grew what else made London the international centre it is today. To follow global financial operations London required a truly international press and media – this newspaper is a product of it. London’s exposure to innumerable cultures gave its creative industries a fuel of ideas, and therefore a drive, that has made it one of the greatest entertainment, architecture, media, music and advertising centres of the world. Simultaneously came people. One-quarter of London’s senior and middle financial management comes from abroad. Nearly one-third of Londoners are from ethnic minorities. Naturally, only a relatively small fraction of London’s citizens understand its position as the world’s greatest international financial centre. But what they have come to know and appreciate deeply is having the greatest international lifestyle on the planet. From those executing high finance in the executive suites and trading floors of the Square Mile or Canary Wharf, through London’s prosperous suburbs of Richmond or Southgate, to the curry houses of Brick Lane, Londoners thrive on the global character of the city. Those who propose we cut ourselves off from the world do not understand it cannot be done. London without its international character would not be London. A commentator on recent events said London had become the world’s first “transnational city” – an exaggeration with an important element of truth. The world’s journalists and business people already know it. A year ago London ran an exhibition celebrating the first contact between Europe and Asia – the Silk Road. A leading Indian software company gave London the type of publicity you cannot buy in the Times of India. “London is a place where you are not only close to the market but you feel at home after a week.” But that is the top. I knew again how deep that feeling had penetrated for Londoners when I saw their response after last Thursday. I do not know Marie Fatayi-Williams, a Muslim who flew to London from Nigeria because her son Anthony was missing. But she understood London. “Anthony is a Nigerian, born in London, worked in London, he is a world citizen. Here today we have Christians, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus all united in love for Anthony.” There are no words to follow that."

There is no shift in my position whatsoever. Are you saying you agree with me: Suffice to say keeping communities apart and rolling back integration is not an option except in the warped minds of a few individuals. London (where I spend a considerable portion of my time) is deeply integrated. The list of names of people missing, killed or injured so tragically and randomly thrown together by the killers' bombs shows how global London is. My own immediate family is a mix of Christian, Muslim and Buddhist. Or was there a reason you selectively edited out that part?

Now we have confirmation of suicide bombers, British society faces some stark choices. This can be turned into a Muslim v "Christian" or brown skin v white skin conflagration. The recipes for that are contained in the posts of the people I have already criticised and with that would come untold miseries. Suffice to say keeping communities apart and rolling back integration is not an option except in the warped minds of a few individuals. London (where I spend a considerable portion of my time) is deeply integrated. The list of names of people missing, killed or injured so tragically and randomly thrown together by the killers' bombs shows how global London is. My own immediate family is a mix of Christian, Muslim and Buddhist. MUch better that both the Muslim and non-Muslim communities now recognise the responsibilities each has to each other and to themselves. Just as the trail to the bombers was started by one of the mothers reporting her son as missing to the police so society can undo the radicalisation and alienation of this extremely dangerous minority. There are tensions, hypocricies, and massive imbalances in the second generation communities from the sub-continent that these terror acts will now blow open. Processes which would inevitably have sorted out those issues over decades will now have to be resolved in months or a very few years. The Islamic community will have to face the extreme mullahs as much as the ill-educated imans shipped in from Pakistan as being every bit as much a source of problems as the actively pro-IRA Priests were for the Catholic Church. Britain plc itself will probably have to face the reality that the extreme form of Wahabiism as practised in Saudi Arabia has financed the "Islamic" preaching which indoctrinated these killers. Saudi is Britain's third largest trading poartner outside of the US and Europe and almost single-handedly keeps Britain's high tech arms industry going. No amount of high tech surveillance or repressive security legislation will hide the true source of much of the cancer within the Islamic world which the west has happily supported and traded with to secure a safe and controllable source of oil.

Glazers as described by an American journalist. Not necessarilly true but according to that piece, the Glazers are well-capable of telling lies. If they convinced everybody they would stump up half the cost of the new Tampa Stadium then didn't, what are their assurances on TV revenues worth? I noticed they squeezed 10,000 fans out of the Tampa stadium to make way for more corporate seats. No doubt they will try that trick on the Mancs.

No phil, you chose to ignore all the available evidence.

This is sheer self-indulgence but these are the reasons why I went for the placements I did: 1. Liverpool - if Benitez can win the Champs League over 17 matches he can win the Prem over 38 (he won the Liga twice). He still has £20m to spend and he'll spend it well. 2. Chelsea - terrible fixture list. At the moment they've sold too many key squad players who they won't fully replace and the superstar buys will be for winning the CL not the PL. They'll sacrifice anything for being Champs of Europe. 3. Arsenal - they will spend big but on who? Expect Henry not to be on his own up front and for the youngsters to look world beaters for 06/07 but not ready for 05/06. 4. Middlesbrough - they got UEFA qualification through league position last year and their summer signings have hardly made them weaker. 5. Man U - I'll believe my own diatribes and say the Mancs won't sign much more than they've got already. In which case, if there's another club good enough for fourth, the Mancs will be in the UEFA 05/06 under the current manager of... 6. Rovers - who will sign Benni and will lose some stupid games through not being good enough in midfield but will be outrageously entertaining a lot of the time unlike... 7. Everton - who won't get past the 3rd qualifying round of the Champs League and the transfer spending will be frozen when they drew Inter (or equivalent) 8. Bolton - not as effective as last season but still pretty useful. Watch for a bad start and Sam making spectacular signings just as the Window closes. 9. Spurs - Could easilly come 6th in place of us but despite being very organised, still don't quite equal more than the sum of their parts 10. Villa - mid table mediocrity for mid-table mediocrities 11. City - SWP will not be adequately replaced so despite having a very good young English manager, will be tough to beat but not tough enough. Good bet for a Cup though. 12. Pompey - would be relegation certs but for lots of smart transfer moves and an inspired new manager. 13. Newcastle - depends when Souey is fired. I'm assuming after Aug 31. 14. Fulham - Coleman is not that bad a manager and I think his signings will do the job they are bought for. 15. Birmingham - true wishful thinking would see them 18th but they are far too good for that. Bruce is not a good manager and so his squad will under achieve again. 16. Charlton - really have the look of strugglers if they make a poor start. Uninspired signings so far. 17. West Ham - signings are no great shakes but better than the other promoted clubs so far. 18. Wigan - Jewell nearly got punished for transfer complacency this season but Ipswich were too poor to catch them. Suspect they will be too cautious in the market to save themselves so no second Bradford-style survival for their manager. 19. Sunderland - signings not good enough although Stead will hit a purple patch to earn Rovers a bit of sell-on pocket money for next summer 20. West Brom - Bradford pattern repeated: last day reprieve followed by the drop. Will play well but not good enough to increase on this season's points total in what will be a closer league all round.

I believe we sold 14,000 STs last season. Just doing the arithmetic from what has been said, we've sold 10,000 so far and at the same time last year we'd sold 10,700. Like everyone else, I wonder if the signing of Bellamy and another top linbe striker is going to trigger a rush of excitement and up the ST sales numbers. IF we get Bellars and McCarthy, that is going to be so exciting a prospect that surely advance sales will accelerate.

The Newcastle midfield is now one of the most creative around but if Bowyer goes, they will have not much grit to compete with either an aggressive or possession-dominating opposition midfield (the other 19 clubs in the Prem have one or the other and some have both - the ones that have neither get relegated). Not much width, the defence looks pretty lacking as does the front line. Souey's comments about the goals coming from Dyer are pointing towards him going into the new season with the sort of novel formations that were his trademark in the later stages of his time at Ewood (who needs a team with a left back/winger/....?) Anyway that is not our problem. Nor is an Intertoto draw which looks more like the later stages of the UEFA or Champions League than a summer kick around. Newcastle will have done extraordinarilly well if they qualify for the preliminary round draw of the UEFA Cup.