Blue blood

Impressive stars. A level below but still. Seems like he could make an impact.

2 years ago this was a really tough award to give. Graham, Dack, Mulgrew and Smallwood (yes really!) we're all contenders, perhaps Bennett too. This year other than Downing which player has performed consistently well and is in with a shout or argument for the position. Shows how badly we are doing.

Play Offs is unrealistic unless we have an amazing window and get in 4 top class players - a striker, keeper, centre back and left back. A few reasons why: - We're missing Dack, our best player, and top scorer, who also creates a fair few goals too. - No one else looks likely to step up and increase their goal tally to replace Dack's lost goals. In fact step up is a bit misleading, get a big ladder and climb would be more appropriate, as Armstrong aside Dack has triple the number of goals any of the other players have. That would mean a couple of players would have to double their goals, or someone triple their goals, which is highly doubtful. You could argue Armstrong will become our pinch hitter, and replace Dack's goals, but even in that unlikely case - he has blown hot and cold since we brought him - we'd still need a player or two to double their goals to replace Armstrong's contribution as the second scorer. Again, this is unlikely. - Squad wise we have a threadbare defence with poor reserve defenders - Bell, Williams, Bennett. When injuries invariably occur, we don't have the quantity or quality to compete and maintain a strong level of ability. - We have a keeper who has dropped a number of clangers costing us points. Even if this continues at the same rate, it'll mean a fair few points dropped. - TM constantly plays players out of position and rotates the team, weakening cohesion and limiting players. He has shown no indication of stopping this unless the pressure is very high, and so will in all probability continue to do this costing us points. - Our form over 2019 was generally poor and we didn't over the course of the year get anywhere near enough points for playoffs. Even just taking this season we're not in the playoffs having had two poor runs already. The odds of another one or two costing us a fair number of points are very likely, when we consider this season and last. - Finally we are outside the playoffs half a season in, meaning that we have to improve in order to get into them. What are the chances of that? Do we realistically look like we are improving? Are many of the players? All in all, I can't see any reason to be optimistic unless TM is potted and we bring in players in the 4 above mentioned positions who are actually of a good standard, which isn't going to happen.

An interesting formation, negating some weaknesses and getting our better players in the team. Whilst it seems to have some merits we haven't done well with new formations which makes me worry about how we would do with it. Previous attempts of 3 at the back haven't gone well at all. Its not a long term solution with only 3 centre backs in the squad. Worry a bit too that Travis and Johnson would get outnumbered. That said it avoids the likes of Bereton z Bell and Bennett near the team which can only be good things. It also could see us get the best out of Downing- not a natural left back - and allows Tosin to push forward and use his composure on the ball more. No idea how this game will turn our (how's that for a prediction?) On form and paper we should lose but very often these games are ones we unexpectedly win. That said not being clear favourites whilst playing Preston is a rather shameful situation and a sign of our issues irrespective of the result.

This winger sounds positive but it's not one of the positions we need to get sorted. Keeper, a threadbare defence and a decent striker are all much bigger priorities. Also shows TM is hopelessly stuck in a rut when scouting for players and the European scout network needn't exist as we only sign players he knows. Its how we've got stuck with so much dross. So like the link but as with many TM things am worried (terrified) of the methodology behind it.

I posted earlier in the thread that imo we are desperate for 4 players - keeper, left back, centre back and striker. If selling Evans allows us to address more ot these huge needs I feel it is a sacrifice we need to make. Add in he's had a lot of injuries and poor spells in his time here, and the fact that Johnson and Bennett can do a decent job in the middle, not dissimilar to Evans, then I think it is a fairly low risk worthwhile trade off. Even should Evans come back into the team I feel with improvements in the other positions mentioned will mean that overall we are in a better position as a team.

There is so much to do on this squad it is untrue. Keeper situation - Walton isn't good enough but is miles better than the reserve keeper. Even on our good run this was identified as a place that needed improvement. Think January is the hardest time to recruit a keeper as most are on loan by now who are surplus to requirements. Defence - depth and quality. Our only decent left back is a converted midfielder so this needs sorting asap. For all the "like a new signing" cliche Downing being released from covering left back would massively improve our midfield options and balance. (As an aside in Bell and Williams is there any team with 2 more abject left backs in the division?) All the other positions do have decent quality - Nayambe, Tosin and Lenihen -but all seem to miss huge amounts of games. Even if they were all regularly fit a hard nut centre back would give us lots more options tactically, but given the injuries the trio sustain a centre half is also a must imo. Tosin can switch between CB and cover for RB as required. As it is an injury to any one of these 3 and the quality downgrade is so appalling it's like swapping a car for a bike. Midfield - glut of them and many of them can do a job. Bennett, Johnson, Armstrong, Evans, Rothwell, Holtby are all ok/solid/have potential to be doing better than they are and with so many other areas needing strengthening this really isn't a priority. If we can get all of these players, heck half of these players, playing at the top of their game (which we have seen glimpses of, albeit infrequently) then we have a very strong midfield. Certainly no need to spend money here. Strikers - when the conversation is who is least worst Bereton or Gally you know you have problems. We need to replace Dack's goals and neither of these guys, nor Graham, look like they will do it. Ergo a striker is a must. Clean sheets mean you don't need to score many but we do need some goals and only Dack reliably scores them. We're high on quantity low on quality so would ship a couple out on loan and get in someone else who knows where the net is. Keep Graham too as he is the only reliable one in there but get the rest out on loan where one of them may develop into a decent player. So imo we need 4 players in January - striker, centre back, keeper and left back. Given we do well to get 2 in during January that means we are likely to end up with half of what we actually need! TM is tied to Bereton and Gally doing well so cannot see us getting a striker. In fact the only one I can see him getting is a left back for Cunningham replacement. I'll be honest if we only do have the budget for 2, and 4 signings is a lot for any club in January, much less a non functional one like ours, then I have no idea which to prioritise as they are all desperately needed.

Yes, I said I thought Gally was redeemable but Bereton wasn't mainly because I think his work ethic and getting chances are attributes that I've seen, whereas haven't seen any positives or attributes so to speak from what I've seen of Bereton. However, as you graciously say, who knows - who knows how much of Bereton's issues are mental and confidence issues arising from mismanagement? I totally agree that Bereton's progress is being kiboshed by limited time often out of position. As you say TM is quick to lament Gally's development but it's not a model of progression that we are seeing with Bereton. Even stranger that he does it. However we all know what TM says and does don't always match up and can be a PR exercise only. One last factor to consider hindering both strikers is each other! We have 2 poor strikers needing game time and often only 1 can come in for Graham. And when playing together it can't help the other having such a limited strike partner. Having 2 duds compounds our problems. As you say it's about opinions (agree about Rochina btw) but for me if I had to back one of them it would be Gally. That said it's a rum do when you're debate centres on which expensive signing might not be a complete flop!

Wrong again. Let's go through your comments: Straw man argument - we signed some good players so it's ok Gally and Bereton didn't work out. Because it's about overall transfer budget. That's like saying I brought a run down house at great expense nowhere worth the price I paid but that's ok because I got a great deal on the washing machine... Being under 23 isn't an excuse for them being terrible. Also we brought to try replacing Graham and neither are near that standard. We pay that much money for players who will improve the team. Neither of them are currently and it looks like neither of them will in the immediate future. In Beretons case i"d say ever and their performances back this up. Regardless we don't have masses of funds and we needed to strengthen the squad now - neither has really done that. If you're argument is that they may come good so it's ok to spend that money - my question would be what about the here and now? What about strengthening the team now orthe places we are weak in? Words fail me if you think Bereton in particular is a good use of £7 million. Re Bristol game - look at the post march thread. Finally the injuries aren't TMs fault (although Lenihens were to be expected after the last few years) but not having adequate cover or quality in is. All teams get injuries yet we seem short on numbers and quality to replace injuries. Dack I grant you is a one off special talent but for the rest - injuries are part and parcel of the game and not being ready for them is TMs fault. But if we're honest if you really think I was saying the injuries were his fault you're not reading posts properly and trying to deflect from the real criticisms because they show TM to be limited.

What surprises me about it was that TM saw through Steele very quickly and got shot of him. Walton is of similar ability and less said about our reserve the better. Given his impatience with Raya too you do wonder how Leut is still here and how we can settle for Walton as our number 1. Shambles.

TMs comments aren't going to help matters much whatsoever. Confidence, working relationship- it's going to be even harder for Gally to get it right. The positives - limited as they are when you have wasted 5 million - are a) he works hard and b) he is at least getting into positions. That is a gazillion times better than Bereton and suggests to me there could be a player of some sort in there. Given Bereton is irredeemable, I feel we need to persevere with Gally, although an impact sub may for now be his best role. He's clearly not good enough but I do wonder if there's enough raw materials in there to keep persevering with to find a player. I would be interested to see how he does with a better manager. Raya improved with a decent coaching set up. Perhaps if TM goes a better manager could get something out of him.

You clearly miss the point on both counts Harry. Starting with the money. Not every bit of money works out. No, and i'm not expecting that. And Downing was inspired business. But that's a straw man argument isn't it that not every bit of money/signing works out. The vast majority of our budget went into those two players and they've failed miserably. You are ignoring the overwhelming bad use of the majority of our money for reasons I'm unsure about. Yes, there's been the odd good signing and a couple of inspired but most have been poor, especially when spending the big money. This season for example how many have been a raging success? Downing and Tosin - that's a poor return. But I'm drifting into your straw man arguments here - the bulk of our transfer budget went on Gally who has failed, just like with Bereton. As for your first point yes Bristol worked out well - and if you look back TM was praised highly for it. However how many times does it not work? How many needless changes has there been? How many times has rotation caught us out? How many times have players been in random positions? For every enforced change there seems to have been several unenforced ones. Also if you are saying the players who come in for injuries aren't good enough or we don't have enough cover - whose fault is that. Let's be realistic, it can be dressed up and circumstances can be bleated about but many of our issues fall on TM for poor selection and recruitment issues.

One last comment on the second goal. When I watched it the first time I had to go back because I was convinced I'd missed something it was that bad a missed save. It seemed to go right through him. I know Walton is bad but he can actually save the ball amidst the clangers. Today's keeper might as well not have been there.

Well actually as TM showed us in our 6 game winning stint it is pretty simple to improve us - play a settled side with the vast majority of players in the correct position. That's not condescending- it's common sense. The biggest losing run in modern Rovers history and he retained his place. Zero return on £12 mill of strikers (look at facts, how many goals? More subjective but look at performances from them too.) Look at what other managers have been sacked for and it's for far less than TM. Compare what a lot of championship managers have been sacked for and TM has been very fortunate indeed.

Having now watched the highlights - my word - our defending is horrendous. Both goals were a joke. Beyond basic stuff and if we defend line that with any regularity in the second half of the season it will be a very long season indeed.

There's also the thought you know, we could approach a manager we want whose working. If it had been a month or so ago I'd have done Rowett - if you'd go to Millwall, you'd go to us. Grayson is another choice of mine. But here's the rub: they're not good enough TMs fanbase cry. But have any of them: - gone on such horrific losing runs - played so many players out of position where they are struggling - had such an unbalanced squad - wasted so much on transfers? I'd say no which is why it is time to go. Oh and since this is the match day topic not the TM thread - not beating 10 men - woeful and embarrassing. :

Agree. The last good run shows that. We aren't that good a team but they are more than competitive enough given the dross in this division. Our wins over Brentford, Bristol and Stoke showed that we are capable of competing. We would be doing better with a manager not making basic errors such as over rotation and players in correct positions. Heck TM showed us that was the case with that run. That said the squad is awful as there's some dross in there and our best 11 is scarily reliant on players who don't have much stamina to play the majority of games. Downing and Graham are getting on, whilst Evans and Lenihen are injury prone, so that's a third of the team that would need resting/would be injured a fair amount of games. Given the quality of the replacements I think we'd still struggle a bit because the squad is so weak. Hence, major changes need to be made in January. And thats before we even think about what we have to do in the summer. Do Downing and Graham have another year in them. We need a new keeper and 2 first choice defenders before we even consider bulking up the defensive numbers. Does Johnson have another season in him - or this one for that matter. We have a ton of work to do in the summer so this January might be a now or never time to build on a solid first 11.

It's a little odd - and speaks volumes for the character of the man - when he feels that it is wrong to question him after numerous abject performances. Almost like the easy Street that is managing Rovers makes him hypersensitive to any criticism or questions, even when it is clearly justified. Things like this show why I dislike him as a manager and as a person. Crap decisions (crap manager) and Muppet of a person (I can't be questioned). Just get rid. At best he is mediocre. But given his losing runs, his terrible transfers and horrendous repeated basic errors of players out of position there's more bad than good in there imo.

Good news is there are clearly some teams worse off than ourselves plus our mini run has meant we have a massive cushion over the relegation places. Let's say they pick up as they seem to be doing and win 1 in 3, it's going to still take a whopping 12 games to catch us assuming we don't get another point. And whilst we don't look that likely to win at present we'll still be picking up the odd point and none of the bottom 3 are that good. Another year where I think we're safe despite being poor. Imo the season will see another lacklustre run until the final month or two when there's nothing to play for either way and we'll pick up again. Another wasted season under TM.

He wasn't at Bradford very long so quite harsh to judge, but yeah can see that argument. Blackpool I think he has them about level as to where they are at quality wise - a mid table league 1 team. So not sure how that counts as a failure. As for Sunderland everyone has failed there including a lot of managers with success elsewhere. Not a complete excuse but I wonder if it says more about the club than the manager. Either way I think he is better than TM who makes basic errors of inconsistent selections and players out of position, as well as blowing our transfer budget - twice!

My point wad your criticisms are all things TM is doing! Also if we hold TMs success if promotion in his favour surely we need to do similar to other managers, especially those with numerous promotions. To me TM is judged by a much easier standard or being the first not appalling manager we've had in a while. As for Grayson his recent stint at Sunderland was a failure. no others have been. That said signing Steele was a heck of a clanger.

Not saying you are wrong (although disagree re Grayson - Sunderland was a failure but who hasn't and 4 promotions) but the highlighted criticisms are all huge issues with TM. You don't want one manager because of his poor recruitment - yet TMs recruitment is poor - has blown tons on inadequate strikers. You don't want another because he chops and changes. TM may have chopped and changed players and their positions on the odd occasion too. TM seems to have many of the flaws that make us turn our nose up at other managers!

Some really well reasoned points again illustrating it's not an easy situatiin. Think you are a bit harsh on Grayson - his CV has a lot more successes than TMs - and Blackpool are in a weaker league but with a weaker team so if anything it shows he is a decent manager. Your cautions on Ross I can't argue with. I suspect the Sunderland situation overshadows his managerial ability but your cautions are valid. Again, a proper recruitment system would uncover which is nearer the mark. As for Warnock any fix is better than none. It changes the culture. If (big if) we get promoted it changes the financial situation. At the very least it puts in some.positive building blocks for someone to work on. So yeah, for me even a short term fix is better than none at all. Interestingly given we're assessing all these managers I'm not sure whether other clubs would favourably assess TM. For example if Boro or any mid/lower table championship club were looking for a manager would they go for TM? His promotion with us is a big positive but other than that and West Brom the CV doesn't make good reading. Indeed the last year or so of his time with Rovers doesn't make good reading either. All the managers we may get have limitations but TM certainly does too. The question is whether there are more issues with TM then some.of these other managers. (imo yes, which is why am leaning towards him leaving.)

Its a good question. As I said in an earlier post I think we've missed the boat on a number of decent managers. However off the top of my head Grayson would be amongst me too candidates. I also wonder about Ross the former Sunderland manager. Yes he didn't get them promoted - albeit it's a graveyard for managers - but they had a good long unbeaten run and doing decently in such a shambles is more of an achievement then it looks. He also did well in Scotland. Houghton as you say is a good call if we can get him. We spend silly money on non scoring strikers so if the will was there I think we could attract him. You are right that having incompetent owners hinders us hugely. A decent person in charge of recruitment would be able to assess whether someone was worth a gamble, whether failed roles had been learned from/had mitigating circumstances or whether they weren't that good. Take for example the ex Stoke boss Jones - he did really well prior to Stoke but poor at Stoke. Which is the better indicator of his talent? I'm not sure but a decent recruiter would be able to get a better handle on this and make a more accurate judgement. So yeah, having incompetents lead us does limit the managerial pool. That said it doesn't shut the door. Some like Houghton and Grayson I think are proven quality. And maybe Warnock could be tempted if we grovelled with large amounts of cash? Others are a gamble, and whilst we don't know which they are because of poor investigation from the recruiters - they could well be good and better than what we have. Ross would fall into that category for me. Now that sounds like a big risk and I appreciate it isn't risk free. The question becomes when is it worth taking the risk. However TM to me is losing the plot - even when he stumbles on a winning formula he rejects it - and the shape we will be in 6 months from now is terrifying (no keeper, defence or decent striker). So to me the risk isn't all that big especially given most managers would do obvious things that would have big gains, such as playing players in position.

Its damning that TMs greatest protection is you can't trust the owners to get better. That speaks volumes for how poor he is. Yet at the same time is true. Compared with Kean, Coyle and a few of the others TM is much better. Problem is we're dealing in levels of crapness rather than actually any degree of quality. There are a number of issues which have been done to death but the one that really sticks out to me is actually our 6 game good run, with 5 seeing an unchanged team. Why at this point did TM do that? Why did be stop it? After 2 home games of failed switching, other than a like for lower quality like replacement for Dack why keep changing? This doesn't really make sense to me. If TM knows a best 11 is the way forward why not stick with it? If he didn't know it till then that's alarming. But given the evidence of that run, why change from it? Or if he doesn't think this works, why do it for 5 games? Its a very odd behaviour and somewhat of a false dawn at the least. At worst it shows a manager who has lost the plot who values things above success.