Some really well reasoned points again illustrating it's not an easy situatiin. Think you are a bit harsh on Grayson - his CV has a lot more successes than TMs - and Blackpool are in a weaker league but with a weaker team so if anything it shows he is a decent manager. Your cautions on Ross I can't argue with. I suspect the Sunderland situation overshadows his managerial ability but your cautions are valid. Again, a proper recruitment system would uncover which is nearer the mark. As for Warnock any fix is better than none. It changes the culture. If (big if) we get promoted it changes the financial situation. At the very least it puts in some.positive building blocks for someone to work on. So yeah, for me even a short term fix is better than none at all. Interestingly given we're assessing all these managers I'm not sure whether other clubs would favourably assess TM. For example if Boro or any mid/lower table championship club were looking for a manager would they go for TM? His promotion with us is a big positive but other than that and West Brom the CV doesn't make good reading. Indeed the last year or so of his time with Rovers doesn't make good reading either. All the managers we may get have limitations but TM certainly does too. The question is whether there are more issues with TM then some.of these other managers. (imo yes, which is why am leaning towards him leaving.)

Its a good question. As I said in an earlier post I think we've missed the boat on a number of decent managers. However off the top of my head Grayson would be amongst me too candidates. I also wonder about Ross the former Sunderland manager. Yes he didn't get them promoted - albeit it's a graveyard for managers - but they had a good long unbeaten run and doing decently in such a shambles is more of an achievement then it looks. He also did well in Scotland. Houghton as you say is a good call if we can get him. We spend silly money on non scoring strikers so if the will was there I think we could attract him. You are right that having incompetent owners hinders us hugely. A decent person in charge of recruitment would be able to assess whether someone was worth a gamble, whether failed roles had been learned from/had mitigating circumstances or whether they weren't that good. Take for example the ex Stoke boss Jones - he did really well prior to Stoke but poor at Stoke. Which is the better indicator of his talent? I'm not sure but a decent recruiter would be able to get a better handle on this and make a more accurate judgement. So yeah, having incompetents lead us does limit the managerial pool. That said it doesn't shut the door. Some like Houghton and Grayson I think are proven quality. And maybe Warnock could be tempted if we grovelled with large amounts of cash? Others are a gamble, and whilst we don't know which they are because of poor investigation from the recruiters - they could well be good and better than what we have. Ross would fall into that category for me. Now that sounds like a big risk and I appreciate it isn't risk free. The question becomes when is it worth taking the risk. However TM to me is losing the plot - even when he stumbles on a winning formula he rejects it - and the shape we will be in 6 months from now is terrifying (no keeper, defence or decent striker). So to me the risk isn't all that big especially given most managers would do obvious things that would have big gains, such as playing players in position.

Its damning that TMs greatest protection is you can't trust the owners to get better. That speaks volumes for how poor he is. Yet at the same time is true. Compared with Kean, Coyle and a few of the others TM is much better. Problem is we're dealing in levels of crapness rather than actually any degree of quality. There are a number of issues which have been done to death but the one that really sticks out to me is actually our 6 game good run, with 5 seeing an unchanged team. Why at this point did TM do that? Why did be stop it? After 2 home games of failed switching, other than a like for lower quality like replacement for Dack why keep changing? This doesn't really make sense to me. If TM knows a best 11 is the way forward why not stick with it? If he didn't know it till then that's alarming. But given the evidence of that run, why change from it? Or if he doesn't think this works, why do it for 5 games? Its a very odd behaviour and somewhat of a false dawn at the least. At worst it shows a manager who has lost the plot who values things above success.

"I think for 20 minutes, we controlled the game. We scored a goal, could have scored another. "But I think they changed their formation, went more direct, played two strikers, made it a scrappier game. They're a big, strong, physical team , we knew that before we came here. They've got some powerful players." Quotes from TM about the game. Could have been quotes about the Preston game. Its not rocket science how to beat us - just be physical. Yet despite this happening time after time TM has no answer when teams do this. A busted flush of a manager if ever there was one.

Well much as I loath Venkys they seem to have backed him in the transfer windows and are rather blasé about spunking £12 mill on low ability strikers, so I don't think he has it too hard! As for managers good question though not that reasonavle. Whenever a manager has to rely on there's no one better out there you know they aren't doing well and shows their ability is poor. It is a dilemma though as not sure who would go for. Had they got rid of TM earlier, my pick would've been Rowett who is doing well at Millwall and has been solid most other places too. I also really rate Grayson - struggled a bit the last 2 years but 4 promotions shows he has quality.

Agreed. We lack ruthlessness. I think Luton and Barnsley's problem is defending. Someone on here said Barnsley has scored 2 goals in a number of matches and not won, whilst Luton scored 3 Vs Fulham and didn't win on top of the 7-0 mauling. Given our time under Coyle too it seems that most teams can score in this division, the challenge is keeping them out and that's what separates the good teams from the rest.

My gut says the same. But both Luton and Barnsley eeked out draws Vs good quality opposition at the weekend, although Luton will be disappointed not to pick up all 3 points. Both have a win in the last couple of games too. With them adding points to the board it means that any team that goes on a bad run - and we've shown even with our quality it's very possible - will find themselves overtaken. Perhaps though - my gut says - Wigan and Luton not capitalising on winning positions this weekend may be highly significant in the run in. If those teams had 2 extra points it would be wide open.

Agree BUT it's very hard to predict! For all their upturn in fortune Huddersfield are only a couple of points out of the danger zone and still losing a fair few games. Don't rate Woodgate or Bowen as managers and that could be a big factor in the final outcome. Neither team are that far off the relegation zone either. Charon despite a recent win have a terrible record of late too. Whilst I think the bottom 3 will stay there I think none of the clubs mentioned will be feeling very comfortable and could go down. Add in Luton are picking up the odd win and it is rather exciting and open at the bottom as well as for the playoffs.

I wonder after a couple of poor results whether this perhaps affects the overall view of some of our players? I find it always hard not to be overly influenced by runs - whether or good or bad. Perhaps now having reached our more accurate level (good but inconsistent) with a good undefeated streak but some dropped.points, this might be an easier time to assess the players? Especially after the Wigan game I'm tended to think perhaps I was overly harsh on Walton who made some great saves and perhaps isn't as poor as I thought. whereas the lack of Dack perhaps throws the lack of goal threat Gally offers into starker contrast. Johnson's performances again suggest however perhaps he isn't what he once was.

Top, top post. And the reality of the situation. Arguably this is the biggest problem - after all players out of position and a consistent team are easily fixible (and are being of late) . We have had this problem for 3 years under TM now and are no nearer solving it. In fact I'm various guises - staying up, winning league 1, beating league 1 plodders this has been haunting us for years. If you can't do that then in one respect it doesn't matter how you do Vs better teams - you're still not averaging enough wins for promotion/playoffs. (I appreciate in another respect it matters a lot!) Let's not forget Wigan have 1 win in 23 (24?) away games. That shouts out as a terrible team away from home - and one there for the taking. We weren't at the races and didn't play on any of the fragility Wigan would have felt. We were resred, had everyone in form and the opponents were familiar and haven't won in ages. It really was gift-wrapped and yet we didn't come close to taking advantage of it. Promotion winning teams would have. The fact this isn't a first is pretty alarming and show why we are solidly midtable.

Lots. Because he isn't very good. Virtually every game he has played he has looked lost in - not just quiet - but lost. If he were anywhere near good enough he would have played. Graham was dropped for Gally very quickly although not being at the same level. That indicates that if TM thought Bereton was any good he'd have been in the team more. The manager doesn't really rate him, the fans don't - I think he is a busted flush. But assuming he isn't - a big if - then the current situation will do him no good. He needs games to see if he can come good but to do it in our team is too big a risk given his performances. Therefore the only way to see if he has a chance of coming good is sending out on loan where he will get regular football. It would be suicide to give him a run of games in our team and pointless for development making the odd cameo. Loan's the only option.

Yeah most of our recent results were good and unexpected against good opposition or ones with new manager bounce etc. No one expected to do as well as that. But against a team with an appalling away record with a level of expectation we repeatedly under TM can't do it.

The only positive in an appalling half is that Walton is looking solid and having a good game. Not a fan of his but he's our best player out there at the moment.

Its the pressure and expectation of being favourites. We go to pieces. Vs Brentford and Bristol - far better teams than Wigan - we were fearless. Put some expectations on us and we struggle.

Williams for Tosin is a huge step down in terms of quality. When compared to any decent centre back - as oppose to his insipid performances at left back - Williams is mediocre at best. Given Tosin and Lenihen seem to both miss a number of games it seems essential to get in another centre back in January. That said no complaints with the team - even Williams (who else could.deputise?)

I hope their problems and form are part of the repercussions of the drink driving incident. I also hope they will go down. Sadly think they've too much quality to go down. Incidentally they have always underachieved in their latest championship stint. So many quality players and no promotion after 3 or 4 years shows they are a joke of a club.

FA Cup third round under Hodgeson I think. We won 4-2 in a comfortable game. Only things I can remember about it being that it was one my late Grandpa took me too and Patrick Valery being unable to turn faster than an oil tanker , slipping in an attempt to do so and letting them score.

We can but hope. Bit early for their usual implosion mind.

Indeed, totally agree. Only thing is not sure he can bring in his own players when there's 37 potential players there already. As you say they need to shift about a dozen out to get to a normal.squad size before you even think of adding players. Horrific mismanagement of the club by the upper management to allow this situation to happen. Edit one last thing there's over 3 players per position! No wonder there is poor moral - some.of them won't get anywhere near a game even with an entire first 11 injured! Hard to be motivated when there is no chance of getting first team football.

Good point had forgotten about Charlton but think they may (just!) have enough to survive. The Stoke fact of 37 players with first team experience speaks of a hugely bloated squad and of a team in bad way. Often the weaker teams use the most players and 37 suggests that there's not been a settled way of playing - much less a team - for a very long time. No wonde they are in such a bad way.

Thinking on it my only worry about this one is its another game where Rovers are heavy favourites and we really don't do well in those situations. Our good run has come against teams who feel they could take something from the game rather than fearing Rovers. This game is a bit different - Wigan are on a horrendous run, we are in super form - I can see them sitting back and trying to hold out for the point. We really struggle with this. Hopefully our good form blows them away. on form and on quality of players we blow them away but still have that slight nagging feeling that this isn't our favourite type of game.

Read an article on BBC about Luton and was really impressed by how they do things. Determined not to get into masses of debt, have a league 2 budget yet are determined to have the highest standards possible. I hope they stay up and show it is possible. Suspect they may go down but think Wigan are in a far worse run than Luton so more likely to be between Luton and Stoke imo.

Agree. The parallels with Sunderland are stark. Both have tried a number of managers and it doesn't seem to be working. It's almost as if they need to get the vast majority of the players out and start again. Even then success is far from.guarenteed. I'd be very worried as a Stoke fan as Boro are a pretty bad team. Not being able.to beat them and you wonder where they will pick points up from.

I'd tend to agree although don't most Spanish clubs recruit only in their region and that breeds a stronger identity in the team and possibly bond with the fans? I'm not too sure but I wonder if we couldn't learn a thing or two about bringing youth through from Spanish clubs. Also on the local front part of me feels it'd be better if they were local - easier to settle/convince to join and perhaps this improves their chance of making it, but then given we are locally competing with a lot of clubs in the north west including some.powerhpusr clubs perhaps further afield is better after all. Sorry bit of a Friday evening brain dump! As long as they are coming through at a decent rate and quality though that's the main thing. Always room to think about how you improve though.

Not sure am way off the mark - although these things are always somewhat subjective - from what I have seen and heard there's been a number of clangers to say the least. The rating also factors in the situation letting a promising young keeper go, Walton being on loan hence no long term benefit and could return leaving us with a terrible keeper. In short the circumstances and performances contributed to that rating. it's hard to say how he would have done. I think he would have done well but plenty of players have started well and done badly and vice versa in my time of watching Rovers that I didn't want to judge too quickly. I'm not sure of so few games though we can say with certainty one way or the other. It's very hypothetical. Every penny counts and given he knew Chapman and he seems to have a host of issues it seems a poor signing regardless of level. might lean to a 5 but considering fee and what we needed I couldn't go any higher. He's certainly not no 1 striker at a mid table club quality as yet. I hope we do too. But that is one game. Even Bell had a good game and am not rating him a good signing! He has promise but it hasn't as yet been fulfilled. And if it isn't going to be we might have well have invested elsewhere. Over the course of the half season he's only done a handful of decent games and I feel the money could be spent better elsewhere where there are more pressing needs. Good to see what other fans think regardless of whether agree or disagree. Hopefully this gives a bit more clarity as to why I rated as I did. ? If we need to be looking at a new keeper than it seems to me Walton isn't doing the job we need him to - and therefore isn't a good signing. Again, part of this is the situation surrounding him being here as well as his performances. Thanks for the input ?