Try telling Ipswich fans that. They wouldnt be so kind to call him abysmal.

Well yeah, but surely the time when he did play, at this level, and regularly impressed is more relevant than any conclusions that can be gathered from not playing in the Premier League. If anything, surely the likes of Semi Ajayi who actually are playing in teams that are conceding 4 and 5 goals at a time would warrant more criticism and even then, at Championship level he is a very competent centre back. West Brom have a surplus of centre backs, they have Ajayi as mentioned, a very good Championship centre back, Dara O'Shea who is a younger player who seems to have gone straight into the team this season, they sold Hegazi which angered Bilic mid season but he again is a good Championship centre back, Branislav Ivanovic who is obviously a very experienced defender at Premier League player, Kyle Bartley, yet another experienced Championship centre back and of course Kipre whose regular inclusion was a big part of Wigan keeping so many clean sheets in the second half of last season. Ultimately I am not convinced that any are Premier League quality (in Ivanovics case at his age) but quite a few are top end Championship centre backs.

Absolutely, it was in no way a criticism or doubt as to the worth of the academy. I was just pointing out that considering how well in regards to under 23 league tables that the current crop seems to be doing, there doesnt seem to be any star talent that stands out. The three that have played a role this season, one is a versatile squad player who perhaps hasnt made any position his own and seems to have injury issues that the manager touched on, one has been on some successful loans and of course was unfortunate to get that injury although had never established himself at this level with any regularity prior, and one of course we differ on the opinion of but I am sure that you will concede that he has never broken through and gotten himself a regular run of starts in what is a congested area of our squad. With the others, they have either had the briefest of first team careers and/or see to be either too injury prone or not considered even when there are no senior players available in their position. It is unreasonable to expect a steady stream of constant new first teamers through the academy each season, and indeed even a couple of squad players (on the back of a spell in which 4 key players came through, one being sold) is very useful. I seem to recall Travis playing at right back in the 2 dreadful spectacles that were the Checkatrade Trophy games v Stoke and Bury before he had established himself in the first team in midfield a year later.

I just thought it was worth pointing out that in the last 2 years in which we seem to have been very successful, that I am not sure if any of them have yet shown signs of establishing themselves at senior level like the 4 or 5 of recent years did/have. Ultimately academys are never consistently churning out first team players year in and year out, and Travis, Lenihan and Nyambe all have established themselves in the 3 or 4 years prior, as well as Raya who was sold. So its not necessarily a criticism of the academy at all. And it isnt all about first team players, the likes of Rankin Costello and Wharton as squad players means that we save money on having to sign 2 bodies to fill those roles so there is constant use from the youth team. I also think that the gap between under 23s and its sanitised environment and senior league football is so vast that maybe there isnt THAT strong a correlation between performances there and likelihood of breaking through to the senior team. A lot of the time, stand out prospects may not spend a lot of time there, either due to loans or instant promotion to the first team. Out of interest, did Raya, Nyambe, Lenihan and Travis stand out at that level, I genuinely dont know?

What is slightly concerning is that we seem to regularly be winning games at under 23 level but there doesnt seem to be much in the way of tangible graduates since Travis to really convince in the first team for such a successful team against other kids. I look at those who have come through, Rankin Costello is the closest it seems but even beyond his proneness to injury, he hasnt convinced me beyond being a versatile squad member, not a natural full back and hasnt yet shown spark or stand out features further forward. Buckley apparently stood out at that level but looks a million miles away. Thompson and Pike werent considered when we had no senior options in their positions. Carter and Magloire looks well off in their fleeting appearances, the hope would be to replicate Whartons trajectory (minus injury) with loan spells but the latter being in non league isnt convincing. Mols could barely get a game in the Spanish 4th (I think?) tier and Vale and Butterworth have managed roughly 90 senior minutes between them and seem again very injury prone, especially Butterworth.

All done purely to provoke.

I dont get why anyone would judge a player and his suitability as a Championship player based on his exclusion from a Premier League team rather than his impressive performances as a Championship defender regularly helping his side to win clean sheets. I suspect that there is still some resentment that he made the very understandable choice to choose to play at a higher level on double the money.

Kaminski Nyambe Lenihan Branthwaite Douglas Travis Davenport Elliott Dack Rothwell Armstrong

He was good enough to excel at Championship level. Obviously he would need to play at Premier League level to prove or disprove his capability but we can be sure based on his performances at Wigan that he is a very able Championship defender. Many of our key players if not all would struggle to establish themselves at Premier League level.

Did Souness not also manage Tugay at Galatasary? Even more recently, Hughes managed Bellamy and Savage with Wales, Ince signed Keith Andrews having managed him at Mk Dons, (plus he also knew Robbie Fowler from Liverpool) Allardyce signed Diouf, less sure on these but I think Appleton (Portsmouth) and Coyle (Bolton) managed Williamson and Feeney, Lambert signed Simeon Jackson, Elliott Ward and of course Bennett and even Bowyer signed Marrow and Judge who he had worked with in our reserve teams. Quite a lot of shite amidst the odd shrewd signing there.

https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/football-news/blackburn-rovers-injuries-butterworth-bennett-19699737.amp?__twitter_impression=true Butterworth out for another while. Dont think hes got any chance of making it with his constant injuries.

Do we genuinely think that Venkys listen to a 20 minute segment on the EFL podcast?

You cant judge managers based on win percentages, otherwise youd think that Arteta having Arsenal in mid table is better than a manager keeping a terrible team in a league.

I feel like the main problem is that you are essentially dismissing the potential of any potential success and indeed the manager meeting his self inflicted targets of a play off push because you have lost all hope. There are so many factors that ensure that we are not merely a club and Mowbray is not a manager fighting a losing battle as a minnow against the giants. One of the main ones is that many if those with higher budgets are not ones whereby the money is freely available to the manager. 2 of the 3 relegated sides and indeed some of those with parachute payments have higher wage bills, but a large chunk is taken up by high earning players who are unwanted. A big example is Stoke, they have Wimmer, Ince, Bauer and a few others on massive wages who are of no use, the side they put out the other week v us had numerous loans, frees and academy graduates with only Allen of any use from the Premier League days. So is their higher wage bill putting them at a massive advantage? No. Was Bowyer at an advantage when he came in and we had a bigger budget that included Murphy, Etuhu and Best on the books? There are teams like Reading and Swansea who are well above us with managers who have had far less time and no more in the way of resources which undermines the point. Swansea have had to sell key assets including Rodon and build with loans, frees and a 600k signing from Wigan. This is before we consider the primary advantages that Mowbray has had, time and no need to sell anyone.

The signing of Kaminski is undoubtedly a good one and has been judged as such. I dont get why you need to qualify your comment about Ayala on the flip side by making out that it is easy to judge in hindsight. You could then say with Kaminski, its easy to say hes good with hindsight but it was a risk signing him! All contracts and indeed all transfers do carry a risk as you touch on but the manager is in a position whereby he is judged without getting to put any poor signings down to a lack of hindsight at the time. Indeed his recruitment in the summer was typically mixed, one very impressive keeper, one outstanding loanee and then a lot of question marks and doubts. Very true, but the forum and peoples opinions dont have to be on hold to them. And many would suggest that based on us continiously being well off the pace of the top 6 throughout the last 18 months that it goes against what we have seen to date which is all we can go on that we will make it.

What is the point if promotion is an impossibility anyway? But he didnt say that anyway, football isnt based solely on budgets and Mowbray has plenty of advantages over many rivals. More time than anyone else to build, no major sales forced through his time here, no big earners and/or bad influences rotting on the wage bill sapping up resources which makes direct comparison unfair that he has still under contract that he has inherited, a very healthy and competitive budget.

Thats nonsense. The target at the start of LAST season was a top 6 finish, publically declared by manager and players alike. We finished 11th, miles off in the end, a mere 3 points better than the season prior in which we went on a truly awful run with a side the manager admitted were "given a chance" following promotion, and never really were ever in the running for the top 6. Players including the captain acknowledged a failure to meet target, but I think there was a level of understanding in that no one ever expected us to get into the top 6. Whether the improvement was enough was a different matter. This season, the top 6 aim was really pushed home again in the summer, more signings made, many with promotion experience, no sales, and a lot more belief and expectation. Unfortunately it has been a season not only that has got progressively worse, but another in which we havent really ever been in the running for the top 6, which was our aim. 2 wins away is not particularly close, and it is not based on the expectations of a good start, which itself was brief, but the expectations set out 18 months ago and re-iterated 6 months ago, on the back of further recruitment and no sales. The fact that we are the top scorers is irrelevant, it is where we are in the league that matters.

Obviously the result is the most important thing and why people are happy, but if the attitude is merely to take the result, dismiss any further analysis and "forget it" then why have a forum and match threads?

Why sign a young goalkeeper as a number 2 when he will spend his time on the bench?

The rumour was that Mowbray had lost communication with the owners after choosing his own signings over the ones recommended. I never assumed that the rumour was true, I was just saying that if it is, I do not feel comfortable with people potentially putting players on Mowbray against his will, and have always been insistent that the manager should get the final pick of players. I am very skeptical of this rumour at this point. I have always worked on the assumption that Mowbray has had final say on signings, nothing he has said has suggested otherwise and indeed the supposedly revamped scouting network only allows him further scope to sign different players. I also havent necessarily criticised the players specifically from being signed from old clubs, it is not uncommon as you say. I try and judge the signings on their individual merits. Kaminski for example is a very shrewd addition thus far, Pears has not impressed and seems miles away, and Ayala was a signing that excited me but various factors, ie his injury proneness which seemingly went undetected in medical checks, the duration of his contract, the way we play which I feel exposes him physically and him being a sole addition at CB has made the signing a rather poor one so far.

If the rumour is true that there is trouble based on Mowbray choosing players ahead of those recommended to him based on data then it further strengthens my belief that such a system can prove to be more trouble than its worth. If players are signed despite Mowbray not wanting them then I would like to think that he is enough of a man to resign and he would probably win any claims against the club as we have seen elsewhere before. Not sure on Pickering (all I have seen is "data" and videos that can make anyone good) but Goode has barely played for Brentford.

No idea where such an impression comes from. One thing is for sure, he wont get sacked after a win.

I definitely agree that he meant no malice but the rule book says this and I dont think we can argue that it was anything but: A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play. Also, I am also sure that it went out yeah, it looked like it. You would need a sideline view to be 100%, as you would with the offside, as maybe a slight part (a toe, a shoulder, whatever) of Armstrong was offside. But both seemed wrong to me. Difficult that, how do you really enforce that? You cant do any more than encourage it and I doubt there would be a sudden influx, and even so, it would take a bit of time. And there would still be a large element of error even if they were former players as things get missed, thats human error.

The constant stream of poor decisions does create a conundrum that I cant really see an answer for. The only answer that could make an obvious major difference would be VAR and even if it is financially viable, I suspect that it would not be overly well received. So the question becomes, the sanitisation of VAR or many wrong decisions? I personally dont like VAR but it may become inevitable.

I have been a huge critic, he was invisible again today and seems well off the standard for a Championship side. But NO ability and out of making a living from football within the next 3 years? I know you are famed for your hyperbole but that seems a stretch even for you.