[Archived] Gordon Brown

[thenodrog]

Thenodrug on the other hand seems to have an obsession with my every post and gives the impression of having a personality disorder.

As a fellow Rover I am not without compassion however and have found the link below where he might find help.

http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/hospitaltre...2=25959&p=6

Recommending private health eh? Your ribble valley brand of champagne socialism is again laid bare.

btw near your old house that you sold 12 months ago to invest in capitalist shares isn't it?

[Billy Castell]

Tell you what should come of this. 4 swift measures...

1. Expenses should be outlawed on the shameful grounds that our 'honourable' members cannot be trusted to keep their fingers out of the till.

2. MP's salaries should be doubled.

3. The numbers of sitting MP's should be halved.

4. Once this is in place nobody should be allowed to sit in parliament under 45 years of age and then only with a minimum of 20 years working in the private sector.

Hopefully that will provide a lasting legacy, and provide a warning to future generations. They really are the lowest of the law.

1. Yes, I'd go for that.

2. Nah thanks. They get paid enough as it is. Mind you a small increase would help with travel cost, second mortgage etc.

3. I'd go along with that, anywhere between 300-450 MPs should be enough. I'd also have an English Parliament of about 100-150 members and get rid of a lot of local authorities such as borough councils. Bedford for example has a town, borough and county council and thus has a very high rate of council tax. And Bedford is not great.

4. I can see where you're coming from on this. The MPs have to have experience in the 'real world' and not be professional politicians who have only worked in that particular bubble. I'd differ on the age, I'd go for 35. The private sector rule would be slighly different too if I had my way, as it would automatically exclude people who have worked in libraries or council owned museums for example. However, I do agree with the general principle you are getting at.

I'd also add these reforms:

1. Get rid of the party system, and only use the names 'Labour', 'Conservative' and as a general guideline for an individual's general outlook. So these become loose clubs where people can gather and discuss ideas and so on, rather than full blown parties with their systems of controls and 'party lines'. The Prime Minister will be the leader of whichever political club gets the most votes, and they will pick the government from any of the other MPs. I admit I need to work on this, but the central point was to free MPs from strict party loyalty and discipline

2. Tax the bars in Parliament the going rate in London. It might have a positive effect on voting behaviour.

3. Abolish the monarchy and the House of Lords. The former will be replaced by a figurehead in the form of a President, who the country could vote for to represent the country on those large, diplomatic visits and all the other stuff that goes along with a royal visit. Any person 40 years of age or over can stand, apart from Simon Cowell and any former MP. Candidiates will be vetted by a panel of Senators and MPs, to weed out the loonies and blaggers. An election will be every 10 years, unless serious misbehviour on the part of the President causes a vote of no confidence to be passed by the Commons. Then they'd be kicked out, and another election would take place.

The House of Lords will be replaced by a Senate. It will have the same powers as the Lords, but will be entirely elected by public vote. Anyone 50 and not a current or former MP can stand. There will be 300 Senators elected from regional constituencies. Elections will take place every 5 years on a fixed date.

No doubt you'll all disagree with my additions, but I think something along these lines would enhance democracy. So nurr.

Oh, and there is nowt wrong with working in a brewery. I'd love to own a micro brewery and I'm not a big drinker.

[dave birch]

1

3. Abolish the monarchy and the House of Lords. The former will be replaced by a figurehead in the form of a President, who the country could vote for to represent the country on those large, diplomatic visits and all the other stuff that goes along with a royal visit. Any person 40 years of age or over can stand, apart from Simon Cowell and any former MP. Candidiates will be vetted by a panel of Senators and MPs, to weed out the loonies and blaggers. An election will be every 10 years, unless serious misbehviour on the part of the President causes a vote of no confidence to be passed by the Commons. Then they'd be kicked out, and another election would take place.

The House of Lords will be replaced by a Senate. It will have the same powers as the Lords, but will be entirely elected by public vote. Anyone 50 and not a current or former MP can stand. There will be 300 Senators elected from regional constituencies. Elections will take place every 5 years on a fixed date.

No doubt you'll all disagree with my additions, but I think something along these lines would enhance democracy. So nurr.

Oh, and there is nowt wrong with working in a brewery. I'd love to own a micro brewery and I'm not a big drinker.

oooohhhh, you'll bring a few objections with these, I'll bet.

IMO Billy, you've almost (almost) got it right.

Give Liz the flick, horn out the blaggers in the Lords, a few minor tweeks here and there and you are home.

[Billy Castell]

The part of my brain that generates these ideas hasn't been used for a very long time. I'm out of practice with thinking about highbrow matters such as political theory. Anyway, we need a lot of reform to our political system to make it more open, democratic and efficient.

[pg]

March in the streets Bryan..its good for the soul.

I actually think you are all lucky enough for this to be brought to light in the first place. I think it will put a very interesting spin on the upcoming election.

How did it all get out in the first place?

[Billy Castell]

I think there had been rumblings about it for a few months, and then Jaqui Smith's husbands' claim for satellite TV which included the porn channels was found out and published. On the tail of that was the series of publications of these expenses in the Daily Telegraph, which used the Freedom of Information Act to uncover these expense claims.

It has been dripping out for a while, with the odd story here or there, but The Daily Telegraph had really blown open the doors on the story.

[ABBEY]

WHO PAYS FOR PORN ? DOH!

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Poll’s are today suggesting that UKIP are level with Labour on 17% ( who are the 17% who will still vote Labour- after destroying the country) for next months European elections.

Although all major political parties have taken a hit in the polls, after the ongoing expenses debacle. It appears Labour have come worse. So they should- as in proportion, the claims made by their MP’s are far larger than the other two political parties.

UKIP & Labour level

[broadsword]

Well it ain't me bruv, Gordon Brown must be cloning himself or something.

Got a Labour pamphlet through the door on Saturday, blathering on about how teh Tories were wasting public money. They just don't get it, do they?

I actually quite like my local (Labour) MP, but I'm sorry, I can't bring myself to vote for him when the G.E. comes round next year.

[jim mk2]

Obnoxious grandad here.

A third Tory MP announced today he would not be standing at the next election after controversy over his claims. Sir Peter Viggers was ordered to quit by David Cameron after it emerged his submission for expenses included £1,645 for a floating duck house and nearly £500 for horse manure.

And another Tory, Anthony Steen, who is standing down after reports he had claimed more than £87,000 for tree surgery and other work on his Devon mansion, launched a tirade against the expenses reforms.

Saying he had been forced to step down by pressure from his constituents, Mr Steen said: “You know what it’s about? Jealousy. I have got a very, very large house. Some people say it looks like Balmoral … It’s not particularly attractive but it does me nicely."

"As far as I am concerned and I don't know what the fuss is about. What right does the public have to interfere with my private life? None.''

Tories - dontcha love em ? And to repeat, Lancashire folk identify with these people and are going to vote for them in the next election ?

[thenodrog]

Obnoxious grandad here.

A third Tory MP announced today he would not be standing at the next election after controversy over his claims. Sir Peter Viggers was ordered to quit by David Cameron after it emerged his submission for expenses included £1,645 for a floating duck house and nearly £500 for horse manure.

And another Tory, Anthony Steen, who is standing down after reports he had claimed more than £87,000 for tree surgery and other work on his Devon mansion, launched a tirade against the expenses reforms.

Saying he had been forced to step down by pressure from his constituents, Mr Steen said: “You know what it’s about? Jealousy. I have got a very, very large house. Some people say it looks like Balmoral … It’s not particularly attractive but it does me nicely."

"As far as I am concerned and I don't know what the fuss is about. What right does the public have to interfere with my private life? None.''

Tories - dontcha love em ? And to repeat, Lancashire folk identify with these people and are going to vote for them in the next election ?

Floggin a dead horse Jimski. You appear too stupid and too entrenched in some pathetric class struggle to realise that they are all corrupt barstrds.

btw Not defending people who should pay for stuff from taxed income but anybody with half a brain cell can understand the need for a floating duck house. It's easy when taken into account that your pathetic lot banned fox hunting!!! Are you really too senile to think things through to their obvious conclusion Jimski?

[American]

Well Jim, I'm glad to hear that Labour has been clean through this whole thing and that not a single member had problems with their expenses...

[Billy Castell]

Obnoxious grandad here.

A third Tory MP announced today he would not be standing at the next election after controversy over his claims. Sir Peter Viggers was ordered to quit by David Cameron after it emerged his submission for expenses included £1,645 for a floating duck house and nearly £500 for horse manure.

And another Tory, Anthony Steen, who is standing down after reports he had claimed more than £87,000 for tree surgery and other work on his Devon mansion, launched a tirade against the expenses reforms.

Saying he had been forced to step down by pressure from his constituents, Mr Steen said: “You know what it’s about? Jealousy. I have got a very, very large house. Some people say it looks like Balmoral … It’s not particularly attractive but it does me nicely."

"As far as I am concerned and I don't know what the fuss is about. What right does the public have to interfere with my private life? None.''

Tories - dontcha love em ? And to repeat, Lancashire folk identify with these people and are going to vote for them in the next election ?

Who should 'Lancashire folk' identify with then Jimmy? People who claim a mortgage that they have already paid for? Hazel effing Blears? There are more than two political parties, and people should avoid Labour and the Tories like they're Gillian McKeith with a hose pipe and a tupperware box. Both are as bad as each other, and any failure to see that is bordering on stupidity of the most massive kind. Both have the same policies, both have the same scandals and both are equally useless.

And who should 'Hertfordshire folk' like me identify with?

John Stewart's take on it.

[Dunnfc]

See Tony Blair has had his expenses shredded, the most corrupt man on the planet. What i want to know is why the police arn't doing anything about it? What's the difference between MP'S claiming more expenses and a person doing benfit fraud?

BNP get them in ASAP.

[Billy Castell]

I wouldn't want the BNP in myself. Their policies extend to 'Pakis and Poles out', and not too much else. They are not Fascists, but have that Fascist tendency to be defined by what they are against, rather than what they are for. Too negative, and they want us to view all people by their religion, race etc. and not by their personality.

[thenodrog]

See Tony Blair has had his expenses shredded, the most corrupt man on the planet. What i want to know is why the police arn't doing anything about it? What's the difference between MP'S claiming more expenses and a person doing benfit fraud?

Shouldn't the 7 year rule apply?

[broadsword]

BNP won't get in. They might win the odd seat, but that's about it.

There is a dangerous political vacuum developing, however. Voter disenchantment must be sky-rocketing now. The Tories seem to be bereft of ideas, the only conviction Gordon Brown has is to cling to power and blame everything on someone else ("The expenses scandal, which started in America ...") and the only other convictions in parliament will be MP's being nicked.

So will we see the Tories coming to power with a landslide victory but a record low turnout? Will there be a dramatic surge for Liberals? Will the popular vote be split evenly between the majority and minority parties? Does anyone care any more?

There seems to be no philosophy about politicians any more, it's all naked bloody greed.

All this won't be forgotten by the public. Once crossed, they don't forgive. In these straitened times, for MP's to emerge as money-grubbing chancers much in the style of a family of 17 on benefits, it sticks in the craw when many families are seeing their budgets stretched to breaking point. Only the most partisan of political supporters could try to make capital out of it (Jim), when all parties are tarred with the same brush.

Is the Monster Raving Loony party still going?

[JAL]

The public up and down the country are clamouring for Independent MP's to replace the existing main party ones, but what is the probablity of the main party slimeballs infiltrating or advertising themselves as Independents come the next general election.

Their transparent words, being put out by Brown, Cameron, and the rest, about restoring confidence in democracy, is sickening to hear to the point of have we lost Britain forever.

Fraudsters, cheats, disloyal public servants, their assets should be frozen and treated as common criminals for their crimes committed to neglecting the country along with having their freedoms taken away.

[broadsword]

Interesting point made on the BBC website.

The government seems very keen to know everything about the public (solely in the name of protecting us, of course).

Doesn't like anyone knowing about them though!

[pg]

From a positive point of view, its probably exciting to be living in the UK now as you are definitely going to be living through a complete change in the role and perceptions of politicians.

Wouldn't it be great for loads of independents to get into power?

Parliament(s) have too often been gravy trains existing purely to rubber-stamp the wishes of the establishment. They serve the short-term economic views of their supporters, are beholden to lobbyists and their vision only extends to the next election.

The politcal 'parties' function just like any other business/corporation. And like most corporations, they serve their own narrow interests and world view, and attack any new ideas or perspectives which threaten their main business model.

I see this as a huge opportunity for the people of the UK to take back some control over their shared destiny.

Remember, taxation without representation is tyranny. It's time now to get more representation and start getting some decisions made for you/our children.

EDIT : The identity of one of the heros responsible for all of this coming to light is now revealed:

BBC - link

[roversmum]

I do think whats happened is concerning and need to be addressed, but similarly the mass hysteria over it is hugely excessive. There's clearly a fault with the system - multiple politicians across all parties across all reputations have been caught. Yes MPs have been exploiting this system and this is wrong and needs to be condemned, but it's no different to what many reputable employees, both public and private sector, do in their jobs. Yes it's public money that they're wasting but the amount of money is negligible compared to how much public money is squandered on things that we all hear about.

I generally try to keep out of political discussions, but have to agree with tgm here and also some of drog's points. What do people want from their MPs? Well, honesty and attending the House would be a start. Open diaries might be a consideration.

However, when you look at the pay MPs receive and what they have to do for it (if they serve their constituents properly) they receive nowhere near enough. Many of the MPs would command much, much more in the private sector, I know of one former MP whose earnings would have been at least six times that of an MP if he had stayed in industry, but he wanted to work for the Party he loved, its members and the local community.

We all know how much it costs to live in London, but that is just the start of it. They need to maintain offices and staff in their constituency, if they are doing their job properly they will spend a fair bit of time in the constituency, I generally don't expect my MP to travel round on the bus, his time is more valuable than that. He/she could be called to a constituency at a moment's notice, attend events, be responsible for his constituents who could number many thousand, and the constituency could be many miles from London. The salary an MP receives is nowhere near enough to cover the costs of what he needs to perform his duties in my opinion. And so we have the allowances system.

The problem is, when they start getting silly and greedy with their claims, past mortgages and duck houses and that sort of stuff. There is a simple solution though. If you perceive your MP to not be doing his job properly you vote him/her out.

However, we get the usual excuses about not agreeing with any party or the alternatives are not acceptable. I must admit I wouldn't vote for people of a certain political persuasion whatever the reason, so therefore I make sure that I can have a say in the selection of my party's local candidate. So get yourselves round to your local parties, even just make a phone call if you are strapped for time, find out what they are doing about the MP etc. You have a vote, use it or lose it.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Obnoxious grandad here.

A third Tory MP announced today he would not be standing at the next election after controversy over his claims. Sir Peter Viggers was ordered to quit by David Cameron after it emerged his submission for expenses included £1,645 for a floating duck house and nearly £500 for horse manure.

And another Tory, Anthony Steen, who is standing down after reports he had claimed more than £87,000 for tree surgery and other work on his Devon mansion, launched a tirade against the expenses reforms.

Saying he had been forced to step down by pressure from his constituents, Mr Steen said: “You know what it’s about? Jealousy. I have got a very, very large house. Some people say it looks like Balmoral … It’s not particularly attractive but it does me nicely."

"As far as I am concerned and I don't know what the fuss is about. What right does the public have to interfere with my private life? None.''

Tories - dontcha love em ? And to repeat, Lancashire folk identify with these people and are going to vote for them in the next election ?

Bonkers

The Labour parties claims have been much worse than both the other major parties.

[thenodrog]

Interesting point made on the BBC website.

The government seems very keen to know everything about the public (solely in the name of protecting us, of course).

Doesn't like anyone knowing about them though!

Indeed. "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others".

[thenodrog]

I generally try to keep out of political discussions, but have to agree with tgm here and also some of drog's points. What do people want from their MPs? Well, honesty and attending the House would be a start. Open diaries might be a consideration.

However, when you look at the pay MPs receive and what they have to do for it (if they serve their constituents properly) they receive nowhere near enough. Many of the MPs would command much, much more in the private sector, I know of one former MP whose earnings would have been at least six times that of an MP if he had stayed in industry, but he wanted to work for the Party he loved, its members and the local community.

We all know how much it costs to live in London, but that is just the start of it. They need to maintain offices and staff in their constituency, if they are doing their job properly they will spend a fair bit of time in the constituency, I generally don't expect my MP to travel round on the bus, his time is more valuable than that. He/she could be called to a constituency at a moment's notice, attend events, be responsible for his constituents who could number many thousand, and the constituency could be many miles from London. The salary an MP receives is nowhere near enough to cover the costs of what he needs to perform his duties in my opinion. And so we have the allowances system.

Bless em. Tell you what Mum why don't you start a campaign to secure MP's more pay? You might just find that few share your opinions. Personally I'd go with that but ONLY if the number of em are halved. Rem Europe makes most of our rules now.

As it is they are falling over their constituents for a month or two bowing and scraping every four years or so begging votes for all they are worth. Like ALL employment situations if someone doesn't like the terms of their employment they can simply move on.

[roversmum]

You're missing my point, drog. If they don't receive more pay they won't be able to do their job properly. Hence why the system of allowances began in the first place, to hide what they were actually entitled to receive and mislead the public. As is usually the case with allowances, some act fairly and only take what they need, others play the system and cheat. If they got decent wages in the first place there would be no need for allowances, but then you'd still have to consider extra expenses for travel for those whose constituencies are some distance away from London. Constituency offices and staff have to be maintained at expense, if your MP does not do this then he is not doing his job. It's a thorny issue whichever way you look at it.