Venky’s v Indian Government (a) - 5/8/2025 - Post-Season Friendly (s/t late postponements)

[lraC]

41 minutes ago, Wheelton Blue said:

In which case, there is an short term 4.9m hole to plug. Ergo, player sales.

Yep

[lraC]

12 minutes ago, funny-old-game said:

ED were seemingly objecting to money being sent at all on the basis that the transfer would not comply with the Country's foreign exchange regulations and that the V's were still under investigation.

 

Just as a reminder, what are ED investigating?

ED seizes nine assets of Pune-based poultry major in FEMA probe | Mumbai news - Hindustan Times

[Mashed Potatoes]

41 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Thanks. I've managed to download the entire thing now.

I found the judgment very unclear and a lot of the language used about the Club not being under suspicion etc and the monetary amounts were the same as at earlier hearings .

However unless the judgment was simply citing the 2023 order for reference purposes, it looks to me as though it was ordered that they could send up to £11m again but with a 50% Bank Guarantee this time as opposed to a full one as previously.

With a further hearing date due to decide whether the need for a guarantee can be completely removed altogether.

The ED were seemingly objecting to money being sent at all on the basis that the transfer would not comply with the Country's foreign exchange regulations and that the V's were still under investigation but were seemingly over-ruled again.

So it seemed to me that if we can actually get before the Court, they're not stopping money being sent over at this stage.

What i found striking however was the fact that we're having to go back cap in hand to the Court already indicating the Wharton/ Szmodics/Raya money etc has run out. Also the amounts we claimed we needed on the previous occasion seem odd - unless I'm reading it wrong it's claimed the tax due on the wages was the same amount as the wages themselves.

To be fair the £4.9m requested by Suhail this time round to cover 3 months equates to the £20m p.a. they've always claimed they sent over. Exactly where it's all going though bearing in mind the massive cost savings and cuts we've made over the last few years I've no idea.

I don't think the transfer moneys due have run out - because some of them have yet to be received. Per the club's accounts at 30 June 2024 there are football related debtors of £12.29m falling due more than 1 year after the date of the accounts - ie from 1 July 2025 onwards. Therefore I think we may be looking here at a short term cash flow problem which can be addressed by a short term loan from the bank.

[RevidgeBlue]

6 minutes ago, funny-old-game said:

ED were seemingly objecting to money being sent at all on the basis that the transfer would not comply with the Country's foreign exchange regulations and that the V's were still under investigation.

 

Just as a reminder, what are ED investigating?

As regards Rovers the ED have been over-ruled twice? now though and restrictions appear to be slowly relaxing rather than increasing, so unless something drastic changes in the meantime the Club are probably correct to assume a precedent has been set.

We probably haven't found out yet the entirety of what Venky's the organisation are being investigated for. I suppose something major could theoretically come to light which would cause us problems. Equally the wider investigation could come to nothing.

I'm not sure why these proceedings have not prompted  the EFL to consider whether Venky's the owners are still "fit and proper owners" though. That happened to the guy at Reading as I recall.

Presumably as long as the bills are still being paid there's no problem from their point of view.

[lraC]

I think a poster on here, once trivialised this in the past, but here is an extract from the link posted above.

So, assuming the article is accurate the owners have stated that Venky's overseas limited has been declared to the state bank of India, as a business that is trading in agriculture and mining and rearing of ducks and hens amongst other.

That sounds to me, pretty much like fraud, but maybe that is an over reaction.

 

The ED’s investigation revealed that VHPL had declared the business of VOL to the Reserve Bank of India as agriculture and mining, including rearing of ducks, hens, among others. No such business activity, however, was ever undertaken by VOL even after the lapse of over 11 years since its incorporation, said the ED sources.

[lraC]

5 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

I don't think the transfer moneys due have run out - because some of them have yet to be received. Per the club's accounts at 30 June 2024 there are football related debtors of £12.29m falling due more than 1 year after the date of the accounts - ie from 1 July 2025 onwards. Therefore I think we may be looking here at a short term cash flow problem which can be addressed by a short term loan from the bank.

So, just a short term cashflow problem then and not much for us to worry about?

[Mashed Potatoes]

4 minutes ago, lraC said:

So, just a short term cashflow problem then and not much for us to worry about?

Long term if they don't send money over there is a lot to worry about unless the annual cash deficit can be covered by transfer dealings - but in the immediate term I would expect us to get through the next year ok.

[RevidgeBlue]

39 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Here is how I see it…

The bank guarantee is only an impediment if the Venkys aren’t willing to fund it.

Evidence suggests they’re only willing to fund it when the situation absolutely forces them to do so.

Ergo (imo) it’s an impediment. 

 

 

It's a matter of subjective interpretation really.

My view is that if they're willing to meet the guarantee in case of emergency it makes no practical difference to us whatsoever.

If and when all need for a guarantee is removed, imo they're not suddenly going to start lashing more money in the Club's direction.

We won't see any benefit, it'll just be cheaper for them.

[wilsdenrover]

28 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Ah - got it!.

I've only just noticed that specific wording and the the numbering on the new order etc.

🤭

Thanks for your patience and concise explanations!

You’re very welcome 👍

[lraC]

3 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Long term if they don't send money over there is a lot to worry about unless the annual cash deficit can be covered by transfer dealings - but in the immediate term I would expect us to get through the next year ok.

Good to hear.

Thanks for clarifying. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

10 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

As regards Rovers the ED have been over-ruled twice? now though and restrictions appear to be slowly relaxing rather than increasing, so unless something drastic changes in the meantime the Club are probably correct to assume a precedent has been set.

We probably haven't found out yet the entirety of what Venky's the organisation are being investigated for. I suppose something major could theoretically come to light which would cause us problems. Equally the wider investigation could come to nothing.

I'm not sure why these proceedings have not prompted  the EFL to consider whether Venky's the owners are still "fit and proper owners" though. That happened to the guy at Reading as I recall.

Presumably as long as the bills are still being paid there's no problem from their point of view.

At Reading there was non payment of taxes and wages . For the authorities to be trying to enforce a sale of a club requires there to be very serious infractions - not dissatisfaction from supporters.

[RevidgeBlue]

20 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

I don't think the transfer moneys due have run out - because some of them have yet to be received. Per the club's accounts at 30 June 2024 there are football related debtors of £12.29m falling due more than 1 year after the date of the accounts - ie from 1 July 2025 onwards. Therefore I think we may be looking here at a short term cash flow problem which can be addressed by a short term loan from the bank.

Appreciate your wider point but why would we need to borrow the money from the bank when the Court have said they can send the money over?

As others have said I wouldn't be surprised to see net sales approximating to a similar amount instead

Edited yesterday at 13:53 by RevidgeBlue

[RevidgeBlue]

1 minute ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

At Reading there was non payment of taxes and wages . For the authorities to be trying to enforce a sale of a club requires there to be very serious infractions - not dissatisfaction from supporters.

Yes, like I said, as long as the major bills continue to be paid presumably there's no problem from their point of view.

[wilsdenrover]

13 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

As regards Rovers the ED have been over-ruled twice? now though and restrictions appear to be slowly relaxing rather than increasing, so unless something drastic changes in the meantime the Club are probably correct to assume a precedent has been set.

We probably haven't found out yet the entirety of what Venky's the organisation are being investigated for. I suppose something major could theoretically come to light which would cause us problems. Equally the wider investigation could come to nothing.

I'm not sure why these proceedings have not prompted  the EFL to consider whether Venky's the owners are still "fit and proper owners" though. That happened to the guy at Reading as I recall.

Presumably as long as the bills are still being paid there's no problem from their point of view.

I presume the reduction to a 50% guarantee on top of the emboldened bits is why the ED have now complained to the Adjudicating Authority.

 

[lraC]

2 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

I presume the reduction to a 50% guarantee on top of the emboldened bits is why the ED have now complained to the Adjudicating Authority.

 

Sounds like the ED are gunning for them and do not want them really sending anything.

That's just my opinion though. 

[jim mk2]

The cash shortfall probably partly explains the decision to shut the women's section

The sales of Dolan and Brittain should just about cover the funding gap

Either way it's clear there's little or no money to spend on players this summer

In other words, nothing has changed

[RevidgeBlue]

1 minute ago, lraC said:

Sounds like the ED are gunning for them and do not want them really sending anything.

That's just my opinion though. 

Seems that way. But so far they've been over-ruled twice.

Might be a different story if we got an unsympathetic judge at some point though.

[lraC]

Just now, RevidgeBlue said:

Seems that way. But so far they've been over-ruled twice.

Might be a different story if we got an unsympathetic judge at some point though.

Yeah.

I am sure some will be pro and some will be anti ED.

Amazing that we are hear as Rovers fans, discussing Indian court cases.

Never the Twain. 

[Tomphil2]

6 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

The cash shortfall probably partly explains the decision to shut the women's section

The sales of Dolan and Brittain should just about cover the funding gap

Either way it's clear there's little or no money to spend on players this summer

In other words, nothing has changed

And the departure of Waggot !

I expect his role to now be shared out between the shadow ruler, his lacky and whomever else in order to save money.

Expect more costly cock ups it's inevitable.

[lraC]

12 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Yes, like I said, as long as the major bills continue to be paid presumably there's no problem from their point of view.

 

At Reading there was non payment of taxes and wages . For the authorities to be trying to enforce a sale of a club requires there to be very serious infractions - not dissatisfaction from supporters.

I don't think that a court case and an article in the Indian Press, suggesting illegal remittances , can really be described as dissatisfaction from supporters to be honest.

ED seizes nine assets of Pune-based poultry major in FEMA probe | Mumbai news - Hindustan Times

[Mashed Potatoes]

18 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Appreciate your wider point but why would we need to borrow the money from the bank when the Court have said they can send the money over?

As others have said I wouldn't be surprised to see net sales approximating to a similar amount instead

I think to the owners it's a matter of principle - they are ,to put it mildly, extremely unwilling to provide funding if they have to put up the guarantee as well.

[Mashed Potatoes]

3 minutes ago, lraC said:

 

At Reading there was non payment of taxes and wages . For the authorities to be trying to enforce a sale of a club requires there to be very serious infractions - not dissatisfaction from supporters.

I don't think that a court case and an article in the Indian Press, suggesting illegal remittances , can really be described as dissatisfaction from supporters to be honest.

ED seizes nine assets of Pune-based poultry major in FEMA probe | Mumbai news - Hindustan Times

Whether something is illegal is determined by the courts, not the press - but even if things do go against the Raos here I can't see it being anywhere near enough to enable the EFL to act. There is at least one Premier League club with owners who practise torture in their own country.

[RevidgeBlue]

34 minutes ago, lraC said:

I think a poster on here, once trivialised this in the past, but here is an extract from the link posted above.

So, assuming the article is accurate the owners have stated that Venky's overseas limited has been declared to the state bank of India, as a business that is trading in agriculture and mining and rearing of ducks and hens amongst other.

That sounds to me, pretty much like fraud, but maybe that is an over reaction.

 

The ED’s investigation revealed that VHPL had declared the business of VOL to the Reserve Bank of India as agriculture and mining, including rearing of ducks, hens, among others. No such business activity, however, was ever undertaken by VOL even after the lapse of over 11 years since its incorporation, said the ED sources.

Innocently mis representing the purposes of the Company seems somewhat too trivial to warrant a major investigation imo.

It's clear the current Indian regime don't like money leaving the Country full stop. So maybe they're trying to make out that the omission was deliberate to allow funds to be funneled out overseas?

Doesn't the investigation on the information so far to hand centre around the allegedly improper purchase of Neville's old house and shares  in Akon's Company using VOL money?

I'd have thought it would be pretty easy to argue they needed a suitable Base in this Country re: the house.

Not so much the shares.

 

[RevidgeBlue]

1 minute ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Whether something is illegal is determined by the courts, not the press - but even if things do go against the Raos here I can't see it being anywhere near enough to enable the EFL to act. There is at least one Premier League club with owners who practise torture in their own country.

Might be the case that being merely being under investigation is ok, but if they're actually found guilty of anything implying any form of dishonesty the EFL might take another look.

Innocent until proven guilty and all that. Rightly so.

[wilsdenrover]

44 minutes ago, lraC said:

I think a poster on here, once trivialised this in the past, but here is an extract from the link posted above.

So, assuming the article is accurate the owners have stated that Venky's overseas limited has been declared to the state bank of India, as a business that is trading in agriculture and mining and rearing of ducks and hens amongst other.

That sounds to me, pretty much like fraud, but maybe that is an over reaction.

 

The ED’s investigation revealed that VHPL had declared the business of VOL to the Reserve Bank of India as agriculture and mining, including rearing of ducks, hens, among others. No such business activity, however, was ever undertaken by VOL even after the lapse of over 11 years since its incorporation, said the ED sources.

And from the horse’s mouth:

https://enforcementdirectorate.gov.in/sites/default/files/latestnews/PR MBZO2- FEMA Seizure-4.09.2023.pdf
 

https://enforcementdirectorate.gov.in/sites/default/files/latestnews/Press Release -VHPL-09.10.2023.pdf