DE.

Not in our first season with JDT. Backwards since then, yes, but that's on Venky's. It's about making the right decisions and as it stands we're in the same place we were under TM - Championship mainstays. Similarly England are still that team who comes up short when it matters, whether it's the quarters, semis or finals. Let's take a chance Gav, see what these players can do if they're let off the leash.

Sometimes you have to be brave and ruthless to move forward. Much like with Mowbray and Rovers, sticking to the comfort zone ultimately doesn't get you to the next level. I'd be quite excited to see what this crop of young players could do under a more attacking-minded manager. Maybe that wouldn't get us there in the end either, but it'd be nice for me to be able to really enjoy watching England again and to genuinely believe we can beat an elite team.

Best team in the tournament win it, so can't complain. We're a level below Spain and it showed tonight. We had our moments but when they stepped it up we couldn't handle them. Another final lost. History only remembers the winners. Gareth has done his best, but it's best for all if he moves on now. Get a progressive manager in who can really take these young players to the next level. The potential is there. With that said, two finals in for years and we've lost both of them. Can't imagine we'll keep getting these opportunities. At some point you have to take them.

Subs do it again!

Kane off, just a shame we wasted another 60 minutes with him lumbering around doing nothing useful.

Did our defenders come out after the break?

Yep.

You can't really drop the dressing room leader, captain and joint top scorer in the tournament, regardless of his performances as a whole. I understand the logical argument for doing so but realistically it wouldn't happen under any manager.

It's not like the England team in that era were at today's standards though. All teams would have had the same advantages/disadvantages back then.

Would be cool to just all look forward to the final tonight rather than continually sniping like it really matters where a half dozen people on here rank Southgate as a manager. Will be interesting to see how tonight plays out. Hoping for more first half versus Netherlands and less... well, the rest of the tournament really.

Was it shortly after that where he panicked and called the meeting with the supporters' groups and the players to let us know how much we as fans had been upsetting the young lads at half time?

I'd say we had a better chance in the 2020 final against Italy tbh. I rate this Spanish team higher than the Italian team we faced back then, and it was a home match for us in 2020 as well.

If he wins a trophy then he's up there at the very top, alongside Sir Alf. It is what it is - regardless of opinions on his style of football or tactical nous, if you win a trophy then you've achieved the highest possible accolade and have to be recognised accordingly. I think when judging other managers against him it does make sense to include context of tournament structures pre-1996, and the teams we got knocked out by post-1996, but for some people it is genuinely as simple as the round we got to. Everyone will view it differently I suppose. Either way I'll accept Southgate as one of the great England managers if we win on Sunday - acknowledging that all great managers have their fair share of luck. It's weaved into all footballing stories and is part of what makes them so compelling.

Think I saw on the BBC that Kane is joint top scorer with 3 goals and could get the golden boot if he gets a goal on Sunday. Probably says more about the tournament than Kane, but still, would be pretty funny if Kane walked away with the golden boot despite everything.

Just has that feeling where it might be our tournament. Everything seems to be going our way, no matter how grim the situation appears.

Won't happen, but then, would you change a winning formula at this point? We've got to the final with Kane starting, regardless of perception of his performances. Probably have to keep rolling with it at this point.

Southgate made two brave subs towards the end and was rewarded for it. Fair play. Another final. Spain will be a huge test, but a final is a one off and anything can happen.

Please just keep this tempo going. We can and should win this. The Dutch got a slice of fortune with Rice losing concentration and were ruthless in taking advantage of that, but they've offered little else and looked rattled throughout by our attacking play.

Funny that the var woman got it totally wrong this time. Not sure what she meant by "the recommendation will be not to give a penalty" when surely var was the reason the ref second checked in the first place? The ref hadn't given a penalty initially after all. Easily the best we've looked so far at this tournament. Actually enjoying it for once!

Great goal, but a big lapse in concentration.

A lot of people seem to be emotionally attached to Southgate, most likely because he's a former England international and comes across as a nice bloke. Fair enough. I wouldn't encourage any personal abuse of him as that's totally uncalled for. The insistence that he can't be criticised for anything, though, is more difficult to understand. Might as well shut down the forum and all discussion places if it's a case of "we're in the semi finals and there's nothing else to say". Baseless criticism, sure, fair enough to dismiss. When criticism with genuine context and reasoning is dismissed in the same fashion, though, then what's the point? Much like with Mowbray, I have no problem with Southgate as a person. As a manager, I have some major qualms. I don't think it's unreasonable to postulate that with a slightly braver manager we might have actually won something in the past six years, rather than the usual glorious failure from the pre-2008 period. If we win this tournament then I'll hold my hands up and say okay, he did it his way and won a trophy. I might not have enjoyed it, but mission objective achieved.

Spain are so much better than us that they're practically playing a different sport entirely. Watching them play in this tournament has been a genuine pleasure.

But once you're in the tournament you aren't facing the likes of Slovenia, Slovakia, etc, so that makes it more difficult to get out of the group or progress to the semis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only genuinely top team we've beaten in tournaments during Southgate's tenure is Germany? They were in a massive dip at that point, but still, I'll give it to him. Nonetheless, what evidence is there, based on our performances against the top international sides during Southgate's tenure, that we would have done better in tournaments comprised primarily of the top teams?

I'd disagree, as pre-88 it was far more difficult to progress due to the number of teams in tournaments being far less and therefore of greater concentrated quality. The Euros only had 8 teams competing until 1996, and the WC only expanded to 24 teams in 1982, nowadays it's 32 and will be 48 in two years. Gareth has a good record compared to most of his predecessors from comparable years (1996 onwards, really). That is a fair point, albeit in many of those prior years we ended up going out, at whatever stage, to a top team - and that pattern hasn't changed. We've just been meeting those teams far later in the tournament.

Why does expecting more than one shot on target a game equate to wanting England to be 1970s Brazil? A bizarre extreme to take it to when most people I imagine would be happy with the game just being somewhat entertaining to watch, rather than a dreadful slog.