[Archived] Formula 1

[American]

Regardless, I think its crazy to blame Alonso for 'going against his team' when hundreds of engineers at McLaren knowingly used unlawfully obtained information and then tried unsuccessfully to cover it up.

Paul - I thought the conclusion of F1 was that the information was never used, only obtained.

Haven't followed it too closely, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[pg]

Villeneuve was hardly a "rookie" when it came to the top level at motorsport. He had been at the top of his game in indycar for a while before Williams signed him.

Yes, Villenuve had won the Indy 500.

However Hamilton was champion in both Formula 3 and GP2. GP2 nowadays is probably a stronger series than CART was back in Villeneuve's day... and it is definately stronger than the present Indy/CART field.

American - McLaren repeatedly stated that they didn't 'use' the information presented to them.. and therefore were innocent. My opinion (and it is shared by other people in the industry) is that excuse doesn't wash.. and McLaren are trying to weasel their way out of it on a technicality.

The key information McLaren had access to were weight distribution and set-up parameters used for the Bridgestone tyres. It was taken for granted last year at Renault that Ferrari would waltz away with the 2007 championship because they knew so much about the tyres, whereas Renault and McLaren would have to learn it from scratch.

It turns out that because of the different tyre construction between Bridgestone and Michelin, the Bridgestone must have a more even weight distribution, whereas the Michelin could handle a more rearward weight bias. Renault in particular had pursued a rearwards weight distribution over the previous few years with great success, whereas McLaren still tended to be fairly neutral.

So when McLaren find out what Ferrari weight distribution use in the beginning of 2007, naturally it gives them a direction in which to research car setup parameters. The email exchanges prove that

a) McLaren knew what it was

It was very different to their current set up. (Alonso expressed surprise at the value).

There is no doubt that McLaren rapidly caught Ferrari in terms of pace over the first few races of the year, and this information played a key part.

Now, the McLaren lawyers got their staff to state 'no information was used on the car'. In other words, we didn't use the exact Ferrari weight distribution (as an example). However

a) You don't need to use the 'exact value' to get any gain. Just having access to the information gives you a different direction in which to experiment, knowing that you are on the right path

The McLaren may have been physically incapable of achieving the same weight distribution. McLaren may only be able to run with a value to within a few % of the Ferrari value (due to differences in the cars themselves). So instead of using a value of 'a', they used '0.98a'

The information that McLaren obtained in the space of a few weeks took Renault about 6 months to figure out by themselves. Renault basically wrote off 2007... partly due to internal problems with the wind tunnel... and partly due to uncertainty with how to set the car up for the Bridgestone tyres.

Renault would have loved to have known that they needed to change their aerobalance by 5-10% at the start of 2007.

Oh, and the other excuse that 'only rogue employerl' knew about the data is also rubbish IMO as

a) The simulator is a very expensive piece of hardware which would involve about 20 engineers from Vehicle Performance Group.

De La Rosa and Alonso don't just put in a pound coin and go for a ride. Every test program that they would undertake would be supervised by the simulation engineers, and all the results would be meticulously analysed.

As a friend of mine said, if Pedro and Fernando wanted to have a private email, they would do it in Spanish. I have no doubt that those emails were CC'ed to a few engineers in charge of the simulator.

[AlanK]

The ironic thing is, is that it was a disgruntled Ferrai employee that was trying to shaft his own team ended up shafting the main opposition.

Or was that the plan all along?

[pg]

The ironic thing is, is that it was a disgruntled Ferrai employee that was trying to shaft his own team ended up shafting the main opposition.

Or was that the plan all along?

Interesting point. Nigel Roebuck wrote recently in Autosport that if the McLaren spy scandal was tried before a civil court, McLaren would have argued that it was entrapment.

Nigel Stepney clearly is an idiot, but that's what happens in the mad mad world of Formula 1 where you pay a mechanic 750,000 pounds a year.

[AlanK]

Ain`t it great though!

Its like a right proper soap opera.

How are things are Renault PG?

How is next years car looking and will it be Fisi, Heike, Nelson or Fernando?

[bblue]

Paul - I thought the conclusion of F1 was that the information was never used, only obtained.

Haven't followed it too closely, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Really? I can hardly believe they've been in the posession of so much precious information only to put it to one side.

[roversyoyo]

Yes, Villenuve had won the Indy 500.

However Hamilton was champion in both Formula 3 and GP2. GP2 nowadays is probably a stronger series than CART was back in Villeneuve's day... and it is definately stronger than the present Indy/CART field.

Sorry, don't agree with that at all. Jaques Villeneuve won the indycar championship as well as the indy 500. Yes it's probably not up to the standard of F1 but its certainly done under the glare of the watching American and overseras media and all the pressure that goes with it. Anyway its pointless arguing about JV and how good he was, you'll be struggling to name more rookies who were fighting for the championship in their first season.

For Hamilton to come into F1 and perform the way he has under the worlds media spotlight as well as cope with the spy scandal and pressure of fighting for a championship, puts him a step above most other rookies that have come into the sport in my opinion.

It just seems a shame that we have a genuine British talent come into the sport and all some people want to do is knock him down, let the Spanish press do that please.

[ABBEY]

when is decided?

[AlanK]

I week today Abbey.

[AlanK]

Villeneuve did a good job in his 1st season but he was not in the same car as a current and double world champion.

Hamilton is.

That is where the comparisons stop

[ABBEY]

I week today Abbey.

cheers

[pg]

Ain`t it great though!

Its like a right proper soap opera.

How are things are Renault PG?

How is next years car looking and will it be Fisi, Heike, Nelson or Fernando?

I'll be leaving Renault by the end of January. Next year's car will have some interesting bits on it but it still won't challenge McLaren/Ferrari. We've lost too many aero staff over the past two seasons.

Drivers for next year will either be Heikki/Nelson or Heikki/Fernando IMO.

[AlanK]

Sorry to hear that.

Things not worked out??

Or are you off to Honda?

[Tris]

Additionally, part of the reason I can't stand Lewis is due to ITV and James Allen, Steve Ryder and Mark Blundell. I'm sure if I was in another country watching another network's commentary feed he wouldn't annoy me as much.

That's a strange statement, coming from an Australian working for a French F1 team which chooses to be based in Oxfordshire!! Reversing it I assume you'd be a massive Hamilton fan if you happened to work in Spain and be subjected to their natural bias.

I have been an on-off F1 fan for as long as I can remember. I went to Monza when I was 17 and soaking up the atmosphere with the tifosi was like living a dream. I sold ice creams in the rain at Donington when the European GP made a one off visit in the early 90s.

My interest dwindled recently, but Hamilton has certainly re-awakened it. You'll just have to accept that us Brits are bound to be proud of our new found icon. I'm sure if he was Australian you'd feel exactly the same.

[jim mk2]

Yes, Villenuve had won the Indy 500.

However Hamilton was champion in both Formula 3 and GP2. GP2 nowadays is probably a stronger series than CART was back in Villeneuve's day... and it is definately stronger than the present Indy/CART field.

American - McLaren repeatedly stated that they didn't 'use' the information presented to them.. and therefore were innocent. My opinion (and it is shared by other people in the industry) is that excuse doesn't wash.. and McLaren are trying to weasel their way out of it on a technicality.

The key information McLaren had access to were weight distribution and set-up parameters used for the Bridgestone tyres. It was taken for granted last year at Renault that Ferrari would waltz away with the 2007 championship because they knew so much about the tyres, whereas Renault and McLaren would have to learn it from scratch.

It turns out that because of the different tyre construction between Bridgestone and Michelin, the Bridgestone must have a more even weight distribution, whereas the Michelin could handle a more rearward weight bias. Renault in particular had pursued a rearwards weight distribution over the previous few years with great success, whereas McLaren still tended to be fairly neutral.

So when McLaren find out what Ferrari weight distribution use in the beginning of 2007, naturally it gives them a direction in which to research car setup parameters. The email exchanges prove that

a) McLaren knew what it was

It was very different to their current set up. (Alonso expressed surprise at the value).

There is no doubt that McLaren rapidly caught Ferrari in terms of pace over the first few races of the year, and this information played a key part.

Now, the McLaren lawyers got their staff to state 'no information was used on the car'. In other words, we didn't use the exact Ferrari weight distribution (as an example). However

a) You don't need to use the 'exact value' to get any gain. Just having access to the information gives you a different direction in which to experiment, knowing that you are on the right path

The McLaren may have been physically incapable of achieving the same weight distribution. McLaren may only be able to run with a value to within a few % of the Ferrari value (due to differences in the cars themselves). So instead of using a value of 'a', they used '0.98a'

The information that McLaren obtained in the space of a few weeks took Renault about 6 months to figure out by themselves. Renault basically wrote off 2007... partly due to internal problems with the wind tunnel... and partly due to uncertainty with how to set the car up for the Bridgestone tyres.

Renault would have loved to have known that they needed to change their aerobalance by 5-10% at the start of 2007.

Oh, and the other excuse that 'only rogue employerl' knew about the data is also rubbish IMO as

a) The simulator is a very expensive piece of hardware which would involve about 20 engineers from Vehicle Performance Group.

De La Rosa and Alonso don't just put in a pound coin and go for a ride. Every test program that they would undertake would be supervised by the simulation engineers, and all the results would be meticulously analysed.

As a friend of mine said, if Pedro and Fernando wanted to have a private email, they would do it in Spanish. I have no doubt that those emails were CC'ed to a few engineers in charge of the simulator.

And there's me thinking it's all down to the skill of the driver.

Bring back Jim Clark and Graham Hill.

[bblue]

My interest dwindled recently, but Hamilton has certainly re-awakened it. You'll just have to accept that us Brits are bound to be proud of our new found icon. I'm sure if he was Australian you'd feel exactly the same.

I've been a big admirer of M. Schumacher but I must admit Hamilton's driving this year has brought the much needed excitement to the sport after the boring domination of Ferrari few years ago. It's made it more exciting that Alonso's triumphs. The future will be interesting in F1.

[yoda]

Yes, Villenuve had won the Indy 500.

However Hamilton was champion in both Formula 3 and GP2. GP2 nowadays is probably a stronger series than CART was back in Villeneuve's day... and it is definately stronger than the present Indy/CART field.

American - McLaren repeatedly stated that they didn't 'use' the information presented to them.. and therefore were innocent. My opinion (and it is shared by other people in the industry) is that excuse doesn't wash.. and McLaren are trying to weasel their way out of it on a technicality.

The key information McLaren had access to were weight distribution and set-up parameters used for the Bridgestone tyres. It was taken for granted last year at Renault that Ferrari would waltz away with the 2007 championship because they knew so much about the tyres, whereas Renault and McLaren would have to learn it from scratch.

It turns out that because of the different tyre construction between Bridgestone and Michelin, the Bridgestone must have a more even weight distribution, whereas the Michelin could handle a more rearward weight bias. Renault in particular had pursued a rearwards weight distribution over the previous few years with great success, whereas McLaren still tended to be fairly neutral.

So when McLaren find out what Ferrari weight distribution use in the beginning of 2007, naturally it gives them a direction in which to research car setup parameters. The email exchanges prove that

a) McLaren knew what it was

It was very different to their current set up. (Alonso expressed surprise at the value).

There is no doubt that McLaren rapidly caught Ferrari in terms of pace over the first few races of the year, and this information played a key part.

Now, the McLaren lawyers got their staff to state 'no information was used on the car'. In other words, we didn't use the exact Ferrari weight distribution (as an example). However

a) You don't need to use the 'exact value' to get any gain. Just having access to the information gives you a different direction in which to experiment, knowing that you are on the right path

The McLaren may have been physically incapable of achieving the same weight distribution. McLaren may only be able to run with a value to within a few % of the Ferrari value (due to differences in the cars themselves). So instead of using a value of 'a', they used '0.98a'

The information that McLaren obtained in the space of a few weeks took Renault about 6 months to figure out by themselves. Renault basically wrote off 2007... partly due to internal problems with the wind tunnel... and partly due to uncertainty with how to set the car up for the Bridgestone tyres.

Renault would have loved to have known that they needed to change their aerobalance by 5-10% at the start of 2007.

Oh, and the other excuse that 'only rogue employerl' knew about the data is also rubbish IMO as

a) The simulator is a very expensive piece of hardware which would involve about 20 engineers from Vehicle Performance Group.

De La Rosa and Alonso don't just put in a pound coin and go for a ride. Every test program that they would undertake would be supervised by the simulation engineers, and all the results would be meticulously analysed.

As a friend of mine said, if Pedro and Fernando wanted to have a private email, they would do it in Spanish. I have no doubt that those emails were CC'ed to a few engineers in charge of the simulator.

So nobody in F1 can translate Spanish, intresting

[pg]

Sorry to hear that.

Things not worked out??

Or are you off to Honda?

Back home to have a 2nd kid.

Lewis is a genuine talent. I really enjoy watching him drive a race car... he has a very distinctive style and he is a true artisan.

Yes if he was Australian I'd love it... Or not. He's got a bit of the Lleyton Hewitt's about him. If he had Webber's personality I'd love it! I wish he'd keep a lower profile (which is becoming impossible to do). He's going to be in a top seat in F1 for the next 10-15 years.. and possible make it even more boring when Schuey was undisputed #1 at Ferrari. He doesn't need to go mouthing off to the press every five minutes.

Tris - I find it incredibly annoying, frustrating .. and ultimately insulting to the rest of the grid when the 45 minutes before a Grand Prix is spent talking about Lewis. When they cut away from a press conference (after Lewis has finished speaking) to talk to his dad.. again! Its got to the point when I call my son 'Lewis' whilst watching a race (his real name is Lucas btw). The all-time low for ITV for me was in a post-race interview with Steve Ryder which went something like :

Steve : So tell us more about how amazing Lewis is!

Anthony Hamilton : Well... its incredible.. I'm just in awe of him.

Steve : I think we all are!

NO WE'RE NOT!! I'm very appreciative of him immense talent, skill... and exceptional race craft for one so young, but

a) He's in the best car.

He's got the complete backing of the entire team (and has had since his GP2 season).

c) He's probably already driven about 60 open wheeler races before switching to F1. (Unlike Kimi who had driven 17).

The only guy who 'calls it like it is' is Brundle, who gives Lewis praise but also ticks him off when he does something dodgy. I love it when Lewis does his usual swerving all over the track in the run-in to the 1st corner at the start... and James Allen waxes lyrical about how 'robust and aggressive' Lewis is. When Schumacher did it, you all wanted to murder him!

He's going to polarise people like Schuey did, because of his immensive talent.. and his completely no-compromise attitude. I doubt it won't be too long until he too starts moving over on people at 300 km/h and putting them on the grass. I still long for the days of Prost, Mansell and Piquet.. when the top drivers could 'race' each other without trying to kill each other. Sadly, Senna and Schuey have consigned those days to the dust-bin... and Lewis will now pick up the mantle.

Oh.. and for the record.. I can't stand jingo-istic commenatary even when Australians are doing well. Some recent examples that made my blood boil were :

Wimbledon final between Pat Rafter and Goran.. the Aussie broadcasters made it sound as if all Pat had to do was turn up to win the trophy.

Any swimming event with Ian Thorpe or Grant Hackett. I usually find myself cheering on the dutch / Americans just to shut the commentators up.

Thank god the Cricket commentators in Australia are reasonably neutral (thanks Richie).. although I wonder how much longer they can keep it up for.

In the end, its a natural Aussie trait to go for the underdog.. and Lewis isn't one of those.

I just wish Webber got a good car. He's shown Coulthard a clean pair of heels all season... plus I just love his blunt, honest.. Aussie style!

jim - Jim Clark spent his entire F1 career at Lotus. In almost every year he was a championship contender. This certainly helped his impressive driving record.

[bblue]

Hamilton in a good enough position on the grid today, I don't know what Ferrari have got planned with such a tricky starting line, but Hamilton will probably be cautious enough throughout the race to just keep it simple and do what it takes to get the championship title.

[AlanK]

Come on Lewis

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

He's in 7th, and completely buggered it up.

[Jordan]

He's in 7th, and completely buggered it up.

18th now.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

Engine keeps cutting out, he might be able to gain a few places back if he can stop it falling apart again.

[bblue]

Engine or is it the gearbox? They say it's the gearbox here...He's 16th now...

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

Jesus H Christ.

He's back into 5th.

EDIT: Bugger it he isn't, it changed as I was moving my eyes over from Massa

He's 12th

Now 11th..