[Archived] Is It Us To Blame?

[joey_big_nose]

I was going to post this on the main board in response to something the drog said but realised that it was so off topic I couldn't justify it. So I am reposting it here. Drog said:

From that article.....

"Gordon Brown has joined the calls for footballers to respect referees - saying captains should be booked for failing to control their players."

And what about party leaders who cannot control their party members? What a plonker!.... Sexual and financial scandals dog our members of parliament yet he recommends that footballers need to set an example to our youngsters! Substitute 'footballers' with 'members of parliament', 'captains' with 'party leaders' and 'referees' with the 'speaker' and the irony is superb!

Does he not realise how effin stupid he sounds?

Anyhow this is waht I was going to say:

"I always find this a bit daft. There are 500 MPs. Some of them take the pee and are out of order. Most of them do a decent job and have done little wrong. Yet they are subjected to a level of vilification as a set of people (as "politiicans) which is completely out of order. I would wager that the average MP is not any seedier than a Chief Executive of a company, a newspaper editor or a contributer to this board.

I am absolutely certain if the same media glare was directed an the "respectable" population at large the same proportion of stories would come out the wood work. Adultary, bizarre obsession, financial irregularities, down right stealing. However Gordon Brown does set a pretty decent example. He is hard working, polite, diplomatic, intelligent. As was Tony Blair. As is the person who could be the next PM- Cameron. As was Menzies Campbell. As was Major.

By all means give Archer, Blunkett and Mandelson a kicking but give credit to these individuals who did a decent job in difficult circumstances when the slightest blemish magnatised to a hideous degree. I would hazard they have given a million times more to the country in terms of service and hard work than you have, for all their failings, and for not - in the grander scheme of things - outlandish compensation.

We go on about our kids having no respect. I would guess it is because we don't respect anything either. We tell ourselves its all a crock and we are just victims despite the massive evidence to the contrary. This system which everyone hates, guided by these idiots who everyone reviles, who con the country out of millions and crucify the people on taxes, has made us amongst the wealthiest people ever to have lived on the planet.

Pretty pathetic."

While I am posting this I would just like to expand that on a larger level. I have been thinking that maybe the reason everything in life seems so sour to so many people is that we just wallow in self pity all the time. Kind of like petualent, spoilt, wealthy teenagers who have every opportunity laid on for them by their parents (who are, in reality, 1940-50s Britain and the welfare and education system brought about by that period). We try and paint ourselves as victims, because it is a lot easier being a victim than it is to actually take a full and thorough part in life.

The main problem is not the system itself, which functions well enough as a structure, and has done for two hundred years, but the fact that everybody is so apathetic and self pitying so as to rob it completeley of vitality.

[philipl]

Great post jbn.

I agree pretty well with everything you wrote.

I would add that it is not just apathy but the bar room braggard who talks a lot and does nothing about it or the stultifyingly negative attitudes rather than a sense of get up and get on with it which also damage us.

[thenodrog]

Good post jbn, and a very honest opinion which in itself should ensure that you'd never make it as a politician! ....... as opposed to Gunner Graham who imo has virtually all of the necessary 'qualities'.

[den]

Good post jbn, and a very honest opinion which in itself should ensure that you'd never make it as a politician! ....... as opposed to Gunner Graham who imo has virtually all of the necessary 'qualities'.

Who's Gunner Graham?

[Paul]

We try and paint ourselves as victims, because it is a lot easier being a victim than it is to actually take a full and thorough part in life.

The main problem is not the system itself, which functions well enough as a structure, and has done for two hundred years, but the fact that everybody is so apathetic and self pitying so as to rob it completeley of vitality.

Precisely. Great post. It's the what are "they" going to do about it culture which pervades our society. I never wait for "them / they" to do it, I get out there and do whatever myself. Amazing what you can achieve with a little bit of effort.

In another thread roversmum reflects on the lack of help for people who do not fit what we consider "normal." I couldn't disagree with anything she has posted. I have a disabled son, when the local disabled sports group was about to shutdown three of us said we would take it on. Today we have 40 kids registered with the group, 25 attending regularly, enough money in the bank to run for the next 2.5 years, there's bundles of money available, we've never taken more than £2 / week from the members. There was nothing, what existed was about to close, we grabbed it and made it better. We didn't wait for "them" to do anything. Always makes me smile it is still the same three people running things, no matter how often one asks nobody steps forward.

Locally there was no youth club. Some parents got together, started a youth club and it has now been running for 4 / 5 years and oversubscribed with a waiting list. Costs £28 pa per child. Occassionally I help out and the kids are simply very happy to be in a very traditional youth club setting.

One of my lads belongs to a kart club. We go kart racing all over the UK. The whole thing is run by parents.

If you want it to happen get out there and do it. Yes it's hard work but most things in life which are worth having have to worked for. I only post this to show that if you want something it is achievable just don't sit on your backside waiting for someone else to do it.

[blue phil]

However Gordon Brown does set a pretty decent example. He is hard working, polite, diplomatic, intelligent. As was Tony Blair. As is the person who could be the next PM- Cameron. As was Menzies Campbell. As was Major.

Brown is an awful man whose leadership in the short time he has been at the helm has been such that his party will be wiped out at the next election - to be replaced by a man who virtually nobody in the country has any real faith in . Such is the pitiful choice we are faced with .

Tony Blair was a PM who has led the country into a war on behalf of a foreign power by telling a pack of lies to his own people . But he has a nice smile so.......

Menzies Campbell .........decent man I suppose - an improvement on his rivals for his job at the time I suppose . (What was it - a choice between a gay who had previously won an election on an anti gay ticket ; and a bloke with a soft spot for rent boys ! ? )

John Major ? Launched a back to basics campaign while concealing a 4 year affair with the contemptuous Edwina . Liar and a hypocrite .

I'm sorry , Joey , but your view of politicians is unbelievably naive . They deserve every bit of contempt that the public has for them as a body of people . Of course there are always honourable exceptions but by and large they are just lobby fodder , tools at the disposal of the whips and party bosses .

For example , take a look at the Post Office closure programmes . MP's were queueing up to support their constituents but when push came to shove just how many voted against the closures ? Hardly any .

Paul - I'm sure we are all impressed by your activities but why do you seem to assume that everybody who is sick to the back of self serving politicians doesn't have similar activities - and , further , doesn't have the right to be critical of our archaic political system ?

We all have family lives outside of this forum (except for one or two exceptions , of course) ; we just don't all feel the need to broadcast all our "worthy" deeds .

[Paul]

Paul - I'm sure we are all impressed by your activities but why do you seem to assume that everybody who is sick to the back of self serving politicians doesn't have similar activities - and , further , doesn't have the right to be critical of our archaic political system ?

We all have family lives outside of this forum (except for one or two exceptions , of course) ; we just don't all feel the need to broadcast all our "worthy" deeds .

To be frank phil this post clearly demonstrates your entirely negative approach to life. I can't think of a time when you discussed anything in a positive light, you clearly despise / detest the country and it's systems. You also seem to revel in finding opportunities to find fault with individuals who you believe hold differing views to your own. Have you ever considered emigration? It might be worthwhile if you are so disillusioned with Britain?

I make no assumptions concerning other people's actvities, unlike yourself in assumming I have some need to "broadcast my worthy deeds". I said nothing about people's right to criticise politicians (in fact I have previously commented on my own distrust of Brown), just another of your enormous leaps from one point to another, usually in search of an opportunity to crticise.

I gave the examples above for no reason other than to demonstrate what everyday folk can achieve. Mostly what I read / listen to is negative, rarely do we get good news stories, which is partly the problem with the country, as joey questions, people spend their lives glorying in the negative contribute to that. I have no interest in appearing worthy, I know I'm not, I simply try to demonstrate if things need doing there are plenty of opportunities to get them done. I don't see what is worthy in ensuring one's own child has a sports group to attend or in giving examples of how other parents help themselves and their local community. I seem to recall you were bemoaning the loss of community in another thead? So why start kicking at someone who gives examples of how community does still exist? I could give provide many more examples, just things I know of but make no contribution to, but hey that would be positive and it isn't permitted in your UK. Why?

[Manchester Blue]

To be frank phil this post clearly demonstrates your entirely negative approach to life. I can't think of a time when you discussed anything in a positive light, you clearly despise / detest the country and it's systems. You also seem to revel in finding opportunities to find fault with individuals who you believe hold differing views to your own. Have you ever considered emigration? It might be worthwhile if you are so disillusioned with Britain?

I make no assumptions concerning other people's actvities, unlike yourself in assumming I have some need to "broadcast my worthy deeds". I said nothing about people's right to criticise politicians (in fact I have previously commented on my own distrust of Brown), just another of your enormous leaps from one point to another, usually in search of an opportunity to crticise.

I gave the examples above for no reason other than to demonstrate what everyday folk can achieve. Mostly what I read / listen to is negative, rarely do we get good news stories, which is partly the problem with the country, as joey questions, people spend their lives glorying in the negative contribute to that. I have no interest in appearing worthy, I know I'm not, I simply try to demonstrate if things need doing there are plenty of opportunities to get them done. I don't see what is worthy in ensuring one's own child has a sports group to attend or in giving examples of how other parents help themselves and their local community. I seem to recall you were bemoaning the loss of community in another thead? So why start kicking at someone who gives examples of how community does still exist? I could give provide many more examples, just things I know of but make no contribution to, but hey that would be positive and it isn't permitted in your UK. Why?

The best summing up of Blue Phil I think anyone could have written and spot on. If you look hard enough for the negative aspect of something you will surely find it, and he always manages that.

[BuckyRover]

I was going to post in the "Hang 'em high" thread about how pathetic some people are (THE WORLD HAS NOT GONE TO POT)

But after this thread there is no need.

Great stuff.

[joey_big_nose]

Brown is an awful man whose leadership in the short time he has been at the helm has been such that his party will be wiped out at the next election - to be replaced by a man who virtually nobody in the country has any real faith in . Such is the pitiful choice we are faced with .

Tony Blair was a PM who has led the country into a war on behalf of a foreign power by telling a pack of lies to his own people . But he has a nice smile so.......

Menzies Campbell .........decent man I suppose - an improvement on his rivals for his job at the time I suppose . (What was it - a choice between a gay who had previously won an election on an anti gay ticket ; and a bloke with a soft spot for rent boys ! ? )

John Major ? Launched a back to basics campaign while concealing a 4 year affair with the contemptuous Edwina . Liar and a hypocrite .

I'm sorry , Joey , but your view of politicians is unbelievably naive . They deserve every bit of contempt that the public has for them as a body of people . Of course there are always honourable exceptions but by and large they are just lobby fodder , tools at the disposal of the whips and party bosses .

The fact of the matter is, for all of their defects, politicians have gone out there and made an effort to change things. That step in itself is a brave thing to do, they become property of the public and can be beaten roundly at every turn with every mistake they make, are broadly despised, and make much less money than most other positions of similar authority.

Every person makes mistakes. I would say, the Iraq war aside which was a travesty, none of the poeple mentioned did anythign more scandelous than the average adult. And even Tony's move to the war seems to be more misguided than malevolent. My point was not so much that these people are spotless but that they are not anything but decent people doing their jobs.

Who would want to be a politician these days? Not very many people becuase of the contempt and vitriol directed, quite often unfairly, at them as a career. Much better to be a lawyer or in Private Business. So the standard will only decrease, and you are an agent in that.

You have never made a decision in the full glare of public scrutiny, you have never had your every breath hung on by thousands of reporters. Say you became elected. I know very little of you but from what you have postede on this board it is a certianity (if your identity could be traced) that your mildly racist comments would be dug up, the context of all your arguments - the well and the poorly framed - skewd and exploded to have three or four times the sensational impact. No one would be interested in logic, just the story of scandal. And any policy you introduced would be accpeted by some and despised by others, the only problem being that those who despise it make far more noise than those who consent to it. So you would, like all politicans these days, be remebered as being despised for all the injustices that were broadcasted whilst all the good is forgotten.

Part of the process of improving politics is to measure the criticism and assign credit where it is due. This, i would say, is something that happens less and less every year.

[den]

Good post JBN.

[American]

If politicians really went out there to make a difference, and not get famous, you might be right. Very rarely do you meet a politician without an ego.

I mean, Cameron wanted to make a difference to the environment when he rode his bike to work, right? Or did he want to show he "cared" when he sent his car with the rest of his stuff?

[adopted scouser]

Self serving pigs the lot of 'em, snouts in the trough , whores at a capitalist gangbang. So called socialists like Kinnock sitting pretty in his country pile, Vice president of the European Commission (nice number).

Billy Connolly had it right "The desire to be a politician should bar you from ever being one"

[joey_big_nose]

If politicians really went out there to make a difference, and not get famous, you might be right. Very rarely do you meet a politician without an ego.

I mean, Cameron wanted to make a difference to the environment when he rode his bike to work, right? Or did he want to show he "cared" when he sent his car with the rest of his stuff?

Sure. But remember you rarely meet anyone on here without an ego. Or in a board room without an ego. Or in an office or an factory floor. Everybody has slants and self interest, in many ways this is healthy.

Why should Cameron be condemned for trying? Sure he was probably more propelled by the prospect of advancement than enviromental sympathy, but then in your career how much of your action has been propelled by pure morality and honesty? Much of it is a mix of material concern and ideological thought.

It seems like the very act of trying to do something is despised and the only virtuous thing is to do nothing. So increasingly people are following that course of inaction.

[joey_big_nose]

Self serving pigs the lot of 'em, snouts in the trough , whores at a capitalist gangbang. So called socialists like Kinnock sitting pretty in his country pile, Vice president of the European Commission (nice number).

Billy Connolly had it right "The desire to be a politician should bar you from ever being one"

How precisely would we get any politicians then?

The sad thing is that Connolly's assessment is probably generally accepted. Which is completely ludicrous fatalism. And more of a problem, in my opinion, than all the corrupt politicans you could dig up from history.

We have everything. Hospital, schools, an insanely high standard of living compared to any other era of humanity, breathtaking scientific achievements, we have conquered many of the worlds deseases, formed systems of living and society astonishingly complex, had near abouts constant peace in the western world for 50 years, freedom of movment, freedom of career, freedom of action.

Yet life is often treated as one long funeral procession.

[adopted scouser]

How precisely would we get any politicians then?

The sad thing is that Connolly's assessment is probably generally accepted. Which is completely ludicrous fatalism. And more of a problem, in my opinion, than all the corrupt politicans you could dig up from history.

We have everything. Hospital, schools, an insanely high standard of living compared to any other era of humanity, breathtaking scientific achievements, we have conquered many of the worlds deseases, formed systems of living and society astonishingly complex, had near abouts constant peace in the western world for 50 years, freedom of movment, freedom of career, freedom of action.

Yet life is often treated as one long funeral procession.

I was only having a giggle Joey

What you have written above is spot on, I suppose they are a necessary evil after all.

We are privileged to benefit from our democratic system of government and the infrastructure that keeps the majority of us fed and watered in a secure environment. Picture yourself in Zimbabwe with Mugabe and his thugs now ?

[American]

Why should Cameron be condemned for trying? Sure he was probably more propelled by the prospect of advancement than enviromental sympathy, but then in your career how much of your action has been propelled by pure morality and honesty?

Actually, a lot of it, many times to the detriment of my career!

Trying? Trying to win votes.

[rosie]

JBN, Philipl, Paul, you restore my faith! top posts!

[joey_big_nose]

Actually, a lot of it, many times to the detriment of my career!

Trying? Trying to win votes.

If he didn't try and win votes he would be a very poor politican. The system works on the basis that the public want something and the politicians seek election by catering to that desire.

I don't see why it can't just be seen to be a good thing. Then other MPs will think "maybe if I bike I will get more votes". And so we will have the parliamentarians all on their bikes. And others in whitehall will start doing it, and others across the city. And I am sure not a single one will do it for the enviroment - it might be part of it, but it will be to try and lose some fat, get healthy, save money on transport, win some approval from whoever is in charge of their careers, be part of society, be part of life.

That is, in my mind, much better than Cameron just motoring in because, when he weighed it up, he wasn't 100% committed to climate change and therefore felt it to be dishonest to get in the saddle.

If we needed to be pure in motive and what kind of decisions could you make, whether you are a CEO an MP or a footballer? Very few and largely impracticle ones in my opinion.

[thenodrog]

JBN, Philipl, Paul, you restore my faith! top posts!

Well (s)he would say that wouldn't (s)he? MRD 1963

btw Rosie what had happened to your faith that it was in such need of restoration?

[blue phil]

To be frank phil this post clearly demonstrates your entirely negative approach to life. I can't think of a time when you discussed anything in a positive light, you clearly despise / detest the country and it's systems. You also seem to revel in finding opportunities to find fault with individuals who you believe hold differing views to your own. Have you ever considered emigration? It might be worthwhile if you are so disillusioned with Britain?

You know absolutely nothing about myself - you're simply making assumptions (which you accuse myself of) based on SOME posts made on a football messageboard . On many subjects I'm quite certain I've made reasonable , positive posts ....you're just probably too blinded by your political prejudices to notice them . For certain you don't have enough to say I have an "entirely negative approach to life" - that is just plain ridiculous ...if I was less laid back I'be be positively insulted

You say I clearly despise this country and its systems ? An absolutely stupid (and not even compatible) comment taking into account I have stated many times that democracy should be extended to include the election of police chiefs and judges for example , to make communities more inclusive ; that I utterly condemn the levels of crime and drugs and believe our failed sytems should be reformed accordingly . As a tax paying , voting , law abiding citizen I defend my right to criticise when the systems are failing (as in areas like Blackburn they so obviously are ). That is what democracy is about . It is not about fawning to the failing politicians .....or being stupid and gullible to believe that everything is hunky dory and that nothing needs to be changed . You obviously do everything to look after your own family (and good luck to you) - but those who don't benefit from cheap imported labour but instead have to COMPETE with them are having to do the very same under trying circumstances . Don't look down on them .

You problem , Paul , is that you regard everyone who is politically to the right of you , and who have the balls to stand their ground , as being somewhat abnormal and illiberal - even racist - but yet you criticise ME for finding fault with those who hold differing views . I think you'll find that I've never once shied away from debating with those who have differing views from myself (nor complained to the mods about them ) . If I am negative at times then I know that I can back up every word with reasoned debate , especially against the likes of Philipl , Manc Blue , Bucky and Den ......should they ever dare to "up" their level of comments from that of the sniping variety that is . (I exclude yourself , Paul , from that .....)

However I could also make a list of YOUR criticisms - from Thatcherism of yesterday to the GB yobs who embarrass you st home and when you're abroad .

But what really irks me is your constant whingeing and endless criticism of British workers as being workshy - not fit to wipe the boots of their foreign counterparts . Even the ones who do get off their backsides to work at your house you've complained that they're not up to scratch . As I said in another thread perhaps it would be better if it were YOU who did the emigrating - you could then have all the cheap , docile labour you could handle .

To conclude , I must say that I think there's a real resentment amongst many of the posters out there that "right wing" people dare to speak out at all . Maybe in their environment such behaviour is frowned upon as being socially unacceptable , I don't know . It is somewhat inevitable , if looked at logically , that in a period of Labour government "right wing" people are going to have more of a whinge than the Labour luvvies .....

I dare say that if the internet was around in the Thatcher period (or maybe in a future rightist state..) half the "optimistic" lot would be a little more willing to be critical of both government and society . Or maybe they'd just shrug their shoulders and look after their own ....

[colin]

Oh come on folks, it's not exactly rocket science is it?

All you have to do is look at the media:

*********

"OAP mugged for £20 pounds in Blackburn town centre" will make the Lancashire Evening Telegraph

"OAP who dropped his wallet is re-united with it by good samaritan" won't.

*********

"8 year old abducted by stranger" or

"lost 8 year old re-united with her family by complete stranger"

***********

"MP accused of fixing expenses." or

"MP claims correct amount of expenses & donates 10% of salary to good causes"

**********

The media loves bad news, The Daily Mail is the epitome of trying to scare the hell out of its readers into thinking that the country is facing Armageddon via hoodies, drug dealers, & binge drinkers.

Not that I'm going to do it, but I reckon that if I abandoned my daughter in Manchester city centre at 11:00pm on a Saturday night, she'd be back here safe and sound within the hour.

Mind you those pillocks who stole my bike need locking up indefinately and beating on a daily basis.

I'm going to help clear up our local cycle track on Sunday. There's my halo, give it a quick polish.

[blue phil]

Not that I'm going to do it, but I reckon that if I abandoned my daughter in Manchester city centre at 11:00pm on a Saturday night, she'd be back here safe and sound within the hour.

The odds are that she would . Would the odds 20 or 30 or 50 years ago have been greater or smaller of a girl being safe ?

It's the way society is drifting that is the worry concerning the vast majority of people , Colin .

Not all of them are exclusively Daily Mail readers . I imagine the number of readers of the Mail as a fraction of the population is minute . But hey ...don't let that stop you blaming the paper for all the nation's ills .

By the way , did you see Panarama the other night ? There's a thread about it . Bloody Daily Mail must have been on a propoganda spree in our town .....

[American]

If he didn't try and win votes he would be a very poor politican. The system works on the basis that the public want something and the politicians seek election by catering to that desire.

I don't see why it can't just be seen to be a good thing. Then other MPs will think "maybe if I bike I will get more votes". And so we will have the parliamentarians all on their bikes. And others in whitehall will start doing it, and others across the city. And I am sure not a single one will do it for the enviroment - it might be part of it, but it will be to try and lose some fat, get healthy, save money on transport, win some approval from whoever is in charge of their careers, be part of society, be part of life.

That is, in my mind, much better than Cameron just motoring in because, when he weighed it up, he wasn't 100% committed to climate change and therefore felt it to be dishonest to get in the saddle.

If we needed to be pure in motive and what kind of decisions could you make, whether you are a CEO an MP or a footballer? Very few and largely impracticle ones in my opinion.

But when he biked, his car was still driven! He didn't do a single thing to help the environment. He was grandstanding, plain and simple.

At least Gore has gone and made environmental improvements to his house that was taking over 10x more energy to run than the average household.

I thought that Ghandi did a pretty good job making decisions that were pure of motive, myself. And just by comparing politicians to CEOs, you prove the point that they aren't doing this for the public good.

[blue phil]

There's a theory that everyone does everything purely for selfish reasons .

Mother Theresa , for example , was just making damn sure she got her ticket to heaven.....