[Archived] Tactics

[B.R.F.C]

After a bit of thought last night during the game with playing 4-4-2 and getting the best out of Benni and Niko surely we are wasting the talent we have both attacking wise and defensively by playing 4-5-1? Personally speaking to best utilise the talent we have a 5-3-2 formation might be the best option.

-----------Robbo-------------

----Samba--Givet--Nelsen--------

Salgado/Lars-----------Olsson/Chimbonda

------Dunn-Nzonzi-MGP-------------

------Di Santo---Benni-------------

Subs:Lars/Salgado, Emerton, Reid, Roberts, Kalinic, Hoillet etc

Personally speaking I feel with this tactic we utilise the three quality centre backs we have along with protecting the full backs we have such as Salgado who defensively aren't top notch in a 4-4-2. Again with this tactic we're getting the best out of Benni (who many people noted as MOTM last night) alongside Franco. Only downside is that we might see a reversal in the form of Dunny moving slightly further back in midfield.

Highly theoretical and would be most unlikely to happen at such a time in the season but surely against United it might be worth a try rather than a half hearted attempted at 4-5-1.

[den]

We haven't been playing 4-5-1 when everyone has been fit BRFC.

There again, this topic is all a numbers game and not really relative to what should happen during a game. - and really any team must be flexible during a game. Bodies back when we need to defend and players forward when we attack. You could say Arsenal play 4-5-1 - but do they?

[joey_big_nose]

Icers - I think you mean 532 there right? With three centrebacks?

[Rover Down Under]

Best option = 4-2-3-1

Lars - Samba - Givet - Chimbonda

- Emerton - N'Zonzi

- Diouf -Dunn - Peders

- Di Santo

Bench and replacements: Hoilett for Peders, Kalinic for Di Santo, Grella for Emo / N'Zon / Dunn, Nelson/Salgado/Ollson for tired defenders.

Emo to overlap Diouf on right and cover right back. N'Zon to cover left and feed Dunn & Peders, Di Santo to hold up and play through, Diouf to take out markers, Dunn to roam free, defense to push up.... everyone is involved, everyone has a job to do.

[Hasta]

WE played with two up front in the first half last night and we were poor. It only seemed to work in the second half because they had a man less and still tried to keep getting men forward in support. Benni was excellent second half but was given a lot of space. We know that technically he is very good so was in his element. I'm afraid to say that, his contribution for the 4th goal apart, Kalinic struggled.

[sloth_frattelli]

Doesn't leave as much room for cover defensively then if we were to persist with that formation, and I can't imagine either Jacobsen or Salgado busting a gut up and down that right side at their time of life. Understand about a half-hearted 4-5-1 though, I would much prefer a positive outlook with 4-4-2 against Utd on Saturday. Better to go down fighting and all that.

[The Harwood Yankee]

Dunn has been the lynchpin to Sam's one up front formation so with him out the whole system goes out of the window anyway. And we all know how injury prone Dunn is so it goes without saying he'll miss games this season. Even so, we've looked very weedy up front with just one striker and the old addage about defending from the front to avoid being trapped in your own half has certainly applied several times this season.

With this in mind, I'd like to see Sam get the best of both worlds out of Dunn by playing 2 up front and having Dunn sit just behind them in a midfield diamond, like this:

Robinson

Jacobsen Samba Nelsen/Givet Chimbonda

N'zonzi

Diouf/Emerton Pedersen/Diouf

Dunn

Di Santo McCarthy

Not a huge variation on what we've been fielding so far but much more attack-minded and without Keith bloody Andrews really!

[sloth_frattelli]

I'd prefer this...

...............Robinson...................

Chimbonda Nelsen Samba/Givet Givet/Olsson

...Diouf Emerton Dunn/Nzonzi Pedersen...

............Di Santo McCarthy.............

Obviously a lot depends on the fitness of Dunn and Samba coming back from their viruses but providing Samba can't make it I would almost be ready to forgive Olsson's performance at White Hart Lane last season and give him a start. He has been pushing for it recently to be fair.

As for the front pairing, if it isn't working and we're gonna bring on a sub make sure it's Kalinic and not Roberts. Give the lad a chance of becoming a hero for us at Old Trampford rather than that tired old method of throwing on a 'target man.' Surely a spritely 21 year old scampering around their leggy defence in the latter stages would be more beneficial and as Andy Gray would say, that would be Premier League minutes in the bank for him.

[Amo]

With Dunn & Di Santo in the side, the 4-4-1-1 formation is entirely justified. However, when either one is missing, Sam's folly is using the players as the variable and not the formation. McCarthy & Roberts cannot operate on their own, Kalinic has yet to shine, and no one apart from Dunn has flourished in the second-striker role.

[philipl]

I rarely indulge in all this "who I'd pick" nonsense but as Majiball has written, beating Pompey next week is our season-defining opportunity.

We clearly have considerable weaknesses in the squad. Of the three long term injury returnees, Dunn has been a revelation and the kindest thing that can be said of Bert and Reid is that they are not ready yet. Of this summer's signings, Nzonzi and Chimbonda are excellent and the rest are getting there/ on and off. Of last year's signings, Andrews and Grella are not players a seasoned Prem manager would ever think of signing and Diouf has lost pace.

However, we do have very considerable strengths in the squad.

As nicko has pointed out, we finally played our best possible defence at Man U (at the 13th time of asking)- Robinson, Chimbonda RB, Samba, Nelsen, Givet LB. Both Nelsen and Givet are having wobbles but is it any wonder when midfield is every bit as limp wristed as it was under Ince?

I am a great believer in playing to your strengths and it really does look like Kalinic is pretty well ready for full Prem action.

Therefore I'd go for two up front pairing Kalinic and Di Santo (particularly against a Pompey defence that can be panicked and pulled around) with Benni as a high impact and different replacement to come off the bench to replace whichever of those two have run themselves into the ground.

The problem in the centre is the lack of hard tackling. Grella does it but doesn't have the pace to reach his target all that often. I would go with an Ancelotti style diamond with Dunn at the head of it, Nzonzi and Emerton in interchangeable inside left or right roles and Grella or Salgado at the back of the diamond. Hoilett, Diouf or MGP to come on from the bench.

Frankly we are stuffed with wingers who cannot cross so why bother playing them? Far better to go for a formation that gives Chimbonda the ability to get on the overlap and have the cover if we lose posession.

[thenodrog]

Frankly we are stuffed with wingers who cannot cross so why bother playing them? Far better to go for a formation that gives Chimbonda the ability to get on the overlap and have the cover if we lose posession.

I think EHD is a good crosser of the ball whereas Emerton and Ped hit the first man all too often.

You said that 'Dunn has been a revelation' Playing Devils advocate gunner he is our leading scorer with most shots on target yet you want to move him out of position? I'll grant you one thing and thats that the prob we have is that Benny is quality and sits on the bench whilst Julie is awful and plays every week. Fitting up the team to address that is not an easy task.

[Majiball]

Glad someone agrees Pompey at home is going to define our season.

I agree that Dunn is playing well at present even yesterday he was doing well, and if being honest he may have even been able to blag a penalty yesterday if he'd tried too. In the hole he's playing some of the best football of his career to date and its a real headache tactically. The big issue we have is we cannot support the attack quick enough or in enough numbers I'm just not convinced we have the other personnel/attributes to play the formation we are.

Attacking wise Man city and Sunderland have been the best for me. In both those games we created double figures on shots even against a self proclaimed big club, we're not even creating one at present. For the issue is the lack of a second striker as we're asking very inexperienced players (Di Santo & Kali) to do one of the hardest roles in football. Its always going to be a struggle for them. So we need to take some pressure off them and give them some support from when they get the ball, so a strike partner is needed.

So at present for me to achieve our best attacking potential we need those three roles/players on the pitch. Next we need to consider the defence. Yesterday we played our strongest back line IMO, its balanced with Givet at left back and Chimbonda looked far more comfortable back on his natural side. So there's another four positions sorted and obviously Robbo in goal so 5. But that defence has limitations especially on the left side as both Nelsen and Givet are premiership snails. So they will need cover in front of them, but this is where the headache is.

What do we do with the remaining three players? We could play a Diamond as Phillpl suggests, but N'zonzi might lack the passing range and vision to play that role, we will also expose our fullbacks a lot and with Givet's lack of pace and nelsens together we could be ripped apart down that flank. Grella's passing range is good but he lacks physically, could Reid fill the role or Emerton? I'm not 100% if I'm being honest, and I don't think we have a single player who could play at the bottom of a diamond. A flat four pulls Dunn out of the hole so thats out, a flat three behind Dunn could work but personnel for me would be an issue again. I've toyed with the idea of two sitters, Grella and N'zonzi as together they could work quite well but then your left with one player and no real threat from wide. I have to say I don't envy Sam we have a serious selection problem to get our best 11 on the pitch in their best roles.

But I'd try something a little different at Pompey after giving it some thought, 4222. We lack anyone period who can play effectively in the central midfield role, so sod it lets miss it out. With both Grella and N'zonzi playing we should be very solid at the back, Chimbonda will be able to push forward (salgado maybe better in this role he's much better going forward) as with two sitter types he's got plenty of cover. But Givets never going to be doing the same so we need an outlet on the left, cue Di Santo. Is it me or does he like drifting out there? So lets encourage him to do so, he's very good at flicks and the such so lets see what he can create when he drifts out there. His strength in the air will also hopefully allow us another way to exploit this flank. Kalinic to mainly stay central, Dunn on the left in the hole to carry on his partnership with Di Santo which is blossoming, but now they have Kali to help them.

But here's the issue, who plays in the right side of the hole? We need someone who can drift out right to support Chimbonda and has a serious engine, reasonable ball in from the right but also someone who can carry the ball and is reasonably strong physically. I'd try Bert, its a completely new role but out of what we have he seems the best choice.

--------------Robbo-------------

Chimbo---Samba----Nelsen---Givet

---------Grella---N'zonzi-------

---------Emerton---Dunn----------

---------Kalinic---DiSanto------

Its a serious headache we don't have a squad with a complete midfield and the role we have missing is the most crucial one, until its addressed we're stuck pushing at least one square peg in a round hole. When you also add in Dunn and one up top well I just don't see a ideal 1st 11. Maybe pedersen could play the role even Diouf possibly Van Heerden? But it will never be a natural player.

For me we just have to find the one that suits what we have the best with the least square hole, but re-shuffling the squad to fill that hole is priority in January. We need pace and a serious presence up front to play the way we are playing at present and we have none that is 100% ready for the premiership, so its not the way forward for me. But without signing, which means selling (been a long time since I saw one of our players linked anywhere) it a situation that won't go away nor will it improve.

[thenodrog]

Glad someone agrees Pompey at home is going to define our season.

I agree that Dunn is playing well at present even yesterday he was doing well, and if being honest he may have even been able to blag a penalty yesterday if he'd tried too. In the hole he's playing some of the best football of his career to date and its a real headache tactically. The big issue we have is we cannot support the attack quick enough or in enough numbers I'm just not convinced we have the other personnel/attributes to play the formation we are.

Attacking wise Man city and Sunderland have been the best for me. In both those games we created double figures on shots even against a self proclaimed big club, we're not even creating one at present. For the issue is the lack of a second striker as we're asking very inexperienced players (Di Santo & Kali) to do one of the hardest roles in football. Its always going to be a struggle for them. So we need to take some pressure off them and give them some support from when they get the ball, so a strike partner is needed.

So at present for me to achieve our best attacking potential we need those three roles/players on the pitch. Next we need to consider the defence. Yesterday we played our strongest back line IMO, its balanced with Givet at left back and Chimbonda looked far more comfortable back on his natural side. So there's another four positions sorted and obviously Robbo in goal so 5. But that defence has limitations especially on the left side as both Nelsen and Givet are premiership snails. So they will need cover in front of them, but this is where the headache is.

What do we do with the remaining three players? We could play a Diamond as Phillpl suggests, but N'zonzi might lack the passing range and vision to play that role, we will also expose our fullbacks a lot and with Givet's lack of pace and nelsens together we could be ripped apart down that flank. Grella's passing range is good but he lacks physically, could Reid fill the role or Emerton? I'm not 100% if I'm being honest, and I don't think we have a single player who could play at the bottom of a diamond. A flat four pulls Dunn out of the hole so thats out, a flat three behind Dunn could work but personnel for me would be an issue again. I've toyed with the idea of two sitters, Grella and N'zonzi as together they could work quite well but then your left with one player and no real threat from wide. I have to say I don't envy Sam we have a serious selection problem to get our best 11 on the pitch in their best roles.

But I'd try something a little different at Pompey after giving it some thought, 4222. We lack anyone period who can play effectively in the central midfield role, so sod it lets miss it out. With both Grella and N'zonzi playing we should be very solid at the back, Chimbonda will be able to push forward (salgado maybe better in this role he's much better going forward) as with two sitter types he's got plenty of cover. But Givets never going to be doing the same so we need an outlet on the left, cue Di Santo. Is it me or does he like drifting out there? So lets encourage him to do so, he's very good at flicks and the such so lets see what he can create when he drifts out there. His strength in the air will also hopefully allow us another way to exploit this flank. Kalinic to mainly stay central, Dunn on the left in the hole to carry on his partnership with Di Santo which is blossoming, but now they have Kali to help them.

But here's the issue, who plays in the right side of the hole? We need someone who can drift out right to support Chimbonda and has a serious engine, reasonable ball in from the right but also someone who can carry the ball and is reasonably strong physically. I'd try Bert, its a completely new role but out of what we have he seems the best choice.

--------------Robbo-------------

Chimbo---Samba----Nelsen---Givet

---------Grella---N'zonzi-------

---------Emerton---Dunn----------

---------Kalinic---DiSanto------

Its a serious headache we don't have a squad with a complete midfield and the role we have missing is the most crucial one, until its addressed we're stuck pushing at least one square peg in a round hole. When you also add in Dunn and one up top well I just don't see a ideal 1st 11. Maybe pedersen could play the role even Diouf possibly Van Heerden? But it will never be a natural player.

For me we just have to find the one that suits what we have the best with the least square hole, but re-shuffling the squad to fill that hole is priority in January. We need pace and a serious presence up front to play the way we are playing at present and we have none that is 100% ready for the premiership, so its not the way forward for me. But without signing, which means selling (been a long time since I saw one of our players linked anywhere) it a situation that won't go away nor will it improve.

Out of all the advice that I have been given in my life "keep it simple" is up there with the best.

[Silencio]

I rarely indulge in all this "who I'd pick" nonsense but as Majiball has written, beating Pompey next week is our season-defining opportunity.

We clearly have considerable weaknesses in the squad. Of the three long term injury returnees, Dunn has been a revelation and the kindest thing that can be said of Bert and Reid is that they are not ready yet. Of this summer's signings, Nzonzi and Chimbonda are excellent and the rest are getting there/ on and off. Of last year's signings, Andrews and Grella are not players a seasoned Prem manager would ever think of signing and Diouf has lost pace.

However, we do have very considerable strengths in the squad.

As nicko has pointed out, we finally played our best possible defence at Man U (at the 13th time of asking)- Robinson, Chimbonda RB, Samba, Nelsen, Givet LB. Both Nelsen and Givet are having wobbles but is it any wonder when midfield is every bit as limp wristed as it was under Ince?

I am a great believer in playing to your strengths and it really does look like Kalinic is pretty well ready for full Prem action.

Therefore I'd go for two up front pairing Kalinic and Di Santo (particularly against a Pompey defence that can be panicked and pulled around) with Benni as a high impact and different replacement to come off the bench to replace whichever of those two have run themselves into the ground.

The problem in the centre is the lack of hard tackling. Grella does it but doesn't have the pace to reach his target all that often. I would go with an Ancelotti style diamond with Dunn at the head of it, Nzonzi and Emerton in interchangeable inside left or right roles and Grella or Salgado at the back of the diamond. Hoilett, Diouf or MGP to come on from the bench.

Frankly we are stuffed with wingers who cannot cross so why bother playing them? Far better to go for a formation that gives Chimbonda the ability to get on the overlap and have the cover if we lose posession.

That's what I'd go with too Philip. We can get width from the strikers and Dunn running wide and interchanging. There really is no need for Diouf or MGP as they offer no pace or crossing ability.

I actually think we'd be quite solid with that side out.

[thenodrog]

There really is no need for Diouf or MGP as they offer no pace or crossing ability.

Eh? EHD is the best 'out' that we have. He holds the ball up and hardly ever gives it away. Compare that with Robert's and previously Derbs ability to trap a ball further than I can kick it.

[Silencio]

Eh? EHD is the best 'out' that we have. He holds the ball up and hardly ever gives it away. Compare that with Robert's and previously Derbs ability to trap a ball further than I can kick it.

Sorry, I take back the bit about him not being able to cross and I agree that he can hold up the ball. I just don't really see what he does apart from holding the ball. He used to be able to beat a man and score a few but those days are long gone. Don't really see why you are comparing him to Roberts when EHD has never played through the middle for us.

Whatever way you mix our squad around it's going to be hard to pick a team we all agree on.

[Majiball]

Out of all the advice that I have been given in my life "keep it simple" is up there with the best.

Out of all the advice that I have been given in my life "Whats simple to one person is complicated to the other" is up there with the best.

[thenodrog]

Out of all the advice that I have been given in my life "Whats simple to one person is complicated to the other" is up there with the best.

Good point Majiball...... Until one considers that football is a team game played at high speed.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Rovers' centre midfield is the issue with everybody and no matter what formation we field the fact remains that we have not got a suitable combination that provides everything that centre midfield needs to do.

As a result we either field a too defensive formation which offers protection to the defence but offers little going forward or our midfield offers little protection for the defence.

None of our central midfielders offer mobility apart from the 'not match fit' Reid and Emerton.

Until either of those are deemed regularly match fit or January provides us with a mobile midfielder then this debate will rage on.

[Majiball]

Good point Majiball...... Until one considers that football is a team game played at high speed.

Well with "Mental ability" being hailed as the most important attribute in the modern day footballer, I think they should be able to cope.

Alternatively we can carry on with the "simple way" or "Hoofball" as I call it.

[philipl]

Out of all the advice that I have been given in my life "Whats simple to one person is complicated to the other" is up there with the best.

Beautifully illustrated by the 'drog misunderstandng that Dunn at the head of a midfield diamond is in my mind the same position as he plays at present- only I'd have two forwards instead of just the one arguably creating more space for Dunny to run into as they pull the defence apart.

Your 4-2-2-2 suggestion is a fascinating one but I had kittens at the thought of facing an opposition with a speedster operating down the right wing with an unimpeded run at Givet.

[thenodrog]

Well with "Mental ability" being hailed as the most important attribute in the modern day footballer, I think they should be able to cope.

Alternatively we can carry on with the "simple way" or "Hoofball" as I call it.

And why not? Rooneys excellent strike for the second goal was a result of a massive hoofball as you call it from VDS.

[Majiball]

Beautifully illustrated by the 'drog misunderstandng that Dunn at the head of a midfield diamond is in my mind the same position as he plays at present- only I'd have two forwards instead of just the one arguably creating more space for Dunny to run into as they pull the defence apart.

Your 4-2-2-2 suggestion is a fascinating one but I had kittens at the thought of facing an opposition with a speedster operating down the right wing with an unimpeded run at Givet.

Can't win them all.

Givet at full back would be the weak link but I'd hope One of Grella and N'zonzi could get back. If the top four don't work and protect the flanks then your right we get raped down the flanks. It just illustrates what a state our squad is in and that we need to do some wheeling and dealing in Jan.

But, we'd be half way to playing like Brazil!!!

And why not? Rooneys excellent strike for the second goal was a result of a massive hoofball as you call it from VDS.

Don't take one isolated incident and claim United play Hoofball. When it has to go it has to go, trouble is with us at present it always goes. We are as predictable as the sun rising in our play, even our set-pieces are indentical every time. If I was playing against Rovers I'd be laughing all the way home because you know whats coming.

[TimmyJimmy]

On the topic of best advice received, this is mine ...

To every complicated problem there is always one, straight forward, simple, easily articulated, easily understood incorrect answer.

The formation thing would be universally solved by now if it was simple, but it's not. Depends who we are playing against and depends who's fit and who's in form. The only thing I think is obvious to most is that our wing positions are not working (for whatever reason). We either leave Diouf and Peds out or we don't, but whatever we do I don't think we have anyone who can play wing right now (the kids ain't ready for anything other than a cameo performance).

If we lose the wing positions then a diamond formation, or Xmas tree or whatever all come into consideration and we take our pick on the night.

More important than formations is getting it into the players heads that they should hold the ball and look for the pass (Arte) and work harder to 'show' for the ball (Labore) - Rovers, does what it says on the tin.

[Jackson]

More important than formations is getting it into the players heads that they should hold the ball and look for the pass (Arte) and work harder to 'show' for the ball (Labore) - Rovers, does what it says on the tin.

Spot on Timmy. A two fingered dwarf could count the number of times we won and trapped an aerial long ball, on one hand.