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If only they had tuned up on day one and told John Williams and Tom Finn that they were going to invest £250 million pounds over the next 7 years (in addition to all the TV income) and charged them wi

Stuart is right.  This is like what happened with Bolton, we are not in debt to any financial institution but we are in debt to Venky's and if they decide to recall that debt then we will be in big tr

PDF has now been uploaded. Took a glance and it's generally the same old story as recent years. Important to note that these accounts only go up to the end of March 2020, so they won't fully inco

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37 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Graph number 2 supports the long held beliefs that over Venkys time sales cover purchases more or less so they haven't really shelled out a bean to buy players.  Guaranteeing the wages in the absence of Prem income has been their main task which doesn't seem to bother them at all probably seeing as it's just syphoned off weekly turnover from elsewhere and written off against tax.

Sell to buy if we want big moves in summer ?

Of course 'big' moves by our standards in recent years have usually come about in the same way - by the manager traipsing out to India to meet with Madame and her husband over a few days and receiving approval for additional expenditure. The sort of things that require cash in the bank and an injection of extra funds from above. The wages and running costs seem to get heaped onto the debt mountain as losses every year and on it seems to go with no end in sight. Of course we've seen it before how when the manager wants some cash to strengthen the team with 'big' signings.

So their investment in the club is usually just to keep the bills being paid and keep the place ticking over - investment to actually improve the club - whether that be on quality players, infrastructure, staffing - appears to be very little and only comes through if the manager they trust goes out there with a request.

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2 hours ago, MCMC1875 said:

I'll put this into focus.

Income is one sixth of what it was in 2012. Down from £54m to £9m.

#VenkysOut.

We got relegated & lost TV money. So if Venky’s go, we have to find a new owner willing to cover weekly cash flow deficits or eliminate those deficits. 

Only two ways to eliminate- increase t/o (profit) or reduce costs to make good £300k per week. 

Venkys out means an alternative is required.

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1 hour ago, JHRover said:

Of course 'big' moves by our standards in recent years have usually come about in the same way - by the manager traipsing out to India to meet with Madame and her husband over a few days and receiving approval for additional expenditure. The sort of things that require cash in the bank and an injection of extra funds from above. The wages and running costs seem to get heaped onto the debt mountain as losses every year and on it seems to go with no end in sight. Of course we've seen it before how when the manager wants some cash to strengthen the team with 'big' signings.

So their investment in the club is usually just to keep the bills being paid and keep the place ticking over - investment to actually improve the club - whether that be on quality players, infrastructure, staffing - appears to be very little and only comes through if the manager they trust goes out there with a request.

Don’t forget FFP rules inhibit what owners can put in. It’s a t/o related formula in the Championship so with low crowds & low sponsorship we are always going to be struggling.

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Since we came out of the Premier League in 2012 the following clubs have been taken over whilst in the Championship:

Bolton - by Ken Anderson/Dean Houldsworth

Wigan - by the Hong Kong group

Forest - by Al Hasawi and then Marinakis

Derby - by Mel Morris

Sheff Wed - by Chansiri

Barnsley - by Chien Lee and co.

Leeds - by Cellini and then Radrizzani

Sunderland (just after relegation to Lge 1) - by Stewart Donald and co.

Birmingham - by Trillion Trophy

Aston Villa - by Dr Xia and then by Sawiris and the American

Wolves - by Fosun

Cardiff - by Vincent Tan

Reading - first by the Thai group and then by the Chinese

Watford - shortly before we came down by the Pozzo family

With the exceptions of Anderson (no money) and Donald (backed by foreign money) all those were foreign owners with no past connection to those clubs, but chose to buy in the Championship for a 'project' presumably to get to the Premier League and are prepared to invest or sustain heavy losses in the meantime to get there.

The only one of those that has been a disaster has been Bolton - as they can't pay their bills and are dragged through the humiliation of court battles and not paying their wages. The rest of those clubs have remained solvent despite many incurring bigger losses than we do and having similar revenues.

In terms of the 'who will buy us?' line the simple answer is we don't know. We don't know how much Venkys would want for the club, there's no indication they have ever been open to a sale of the club. On the rare occasions we've heard about 'interest' the common outcome seems to be Venkys don't even bother to pick up the phone. Given it seems the staff at the club struggle to get answers from India that doesn't surprise me.

So until or unless Venkys decide they want to try and sell the club its all ifs and buts. But saying there's nobody in the world who would want to take over an institution like Rovers in the Championship is, in my view, wrong, as the above shows.

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Just now, old darwen blue said:

New owners of course, the venkys aren’t the be all and end all!

Hardly a queue forming though is there? We would be looking at someone local who frankly wouldn't have the financial clout to challenge or another foreign owner which would mean at a least a 50% chance of being either clueless or cowboys, or both. You have seen our financial situation, do you really think we are an attractive option? 

Obviously new owners who are good is the ideal scenario, but how many clubs in the Championship have been taking over by good owners recently? Every second one seems to be dodgy in one way or another 

 

Edited by Bigdoggsteel
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Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Hardly a queue forming though is there? We would be looking at someone local who frankly wouldn't have the financial clout to challenge or another foreign owner which would mean at a least a 50% chance of being either clueless or cowboys, or both. You have seen our financial situation, do you really think we are an attractive option? 

Obviously new owners who are good is the ideal scenario, but how many clubs in the Championship have been taking over by good owners recently? Every second one sesm to be dodgy in one way or another 

We don't know. Local owners don't buy Championship clubs these days. I don't think we're much less attractive than any other Championship clubs. All involve pouring millions into a black hole every year in pursuit of Premier League money.

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Just now, JHRover said:

We don't know. Local owners don't buy Championship clubs these days. I don't think we're much less attractive than any other Championship clubs. All involve pouring millions into a black hole every year in pursuit of Premier League money.

At am absolute minimum big gates help. We don't have that. 

I won't go through your handy list above one by one, but out of the 15 you name, I would say that 10 of those owners are as bad as or worse than Venkys 

Edited by Bigdoggsteel
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Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

At am absolute minimum big gates help. We don't have that. 

I won't go through your handy list above one by one, but out of the 15 you name, I would say that 10 of those owners are as bad as or worse than Venkys 

Really? Which?

Anderson's overseen a disaster at Bolton but he's never had the money to bankroll them and admitted as much. He hasn't claimed to be something he isn't.

Cellino was a disaster at Leeds but didn't relegate them and swiftly sold up and cleared off once he'd outstayed his welcome.

Al Hasawi unpopular at Forest but again he didn't take them into League One and sold up to someone better once the fans had turned.

All the rest seem to be doing ok, or in the case of Wolves and Watford have completely revolutionised their clubs.

The old crowds argument is tiresome too. Wigan, Watford, Barnsley, Reading get no more turning up than we do even now, and I've no doubt we'd have more turning up if we made more of an effort.

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Just now, JHRover said:

Really? Which?

Anderson's overseen a disaster at Bolton but he's never had the money to bankroll them and admitted as much. He hasn't claimed to be something he isn't.

Cellino was a disaster at Leeds but didn't relegate them and swiftly sold up and cleared off once he'd outstayed his welcome.

Al Hasawi unpopular at Forest but again he didn't take them into League One and sold up to someone better once the fans had turned.

All the rest seem to be doing ok, or in the case of Wolves and Watford have completely revolutionised their clubs.

The old crowds argument is tiresome too. Wigan, Watford, Barnsley, Reading get no more turning up than we do even now, and I've no doubt we'd have more turning up if we made more of an effort.

 

Bolton - by Ken Anderson/Dean Houldsworth worse

Wigan - by the Hong Kong group don't appear to be delivering anything they promised

Forest - by Al Hasawi and then Marinakis google the new owner. Things might look ok now, but he is dodgy

Derby - by Mel Morris Seem good

Sheff Wed - by Chansiri Time will tell, but before appointing bruce they were haveing a mare

Barnsley - by Chien Lee and co Ended up relegated 

Leeds - by Cellini and then Radrizzani A succession of basket case owners, this season being the exception of many , many years

Sunderland (just after relegation to Lge 1) - by Stewart Donald and co.- Succession of poor owners

Birmingham - by Trillion Trophy- Succession of dodgy owners 

Aston Villa - by Dr Xia and then by Sawiris and the American- Dodgy, Will certainly be under FFP restrictions if they don't go up 

Wolves - by Fosun- Hit the jackpot with their owners

Cardiff - by Vincent Tan- Ups and downs would be fair to say, but overall a good owner it seems 

Reading - first by the Thai group and then by the Chinese- Dodgy

Watford - shortly before we came down by the Pozzo family- Good owners 

 

As for crowds and the clubs you mention, Watford aside , you couldn't really say any are thriving 

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Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

 

Bolton - by Ken Anderson/Dean Houldsworth worse

Wigan - by the Hong Kong group don't appear to be delivering anything they promised

Forest - by Al Hasawi and then Marinakis google the new owner. Things might look ok now, but he is dodgy

Derby - by Mel Morris Seem good

Sheff Wed - by Chansiri Time will tell, but before appointing bruce they were haveing a mare

Barnsley - by Chien Lee and co Ended up relegated 

Leeds - by Cellini and then Radrizzani A succession of basket case owners, this season being the exception of many , many years

Sunderland (just after relegation to Lge 1) - by Stewart Donald and co.- Succession of poor owners

Birmingham - by Trillion Trophy- Succession of dodgy owners 

Aston Villa - by Dr Xia and then by Sawiris and the American- Dodgy, Will certainly be under FFP restrictions if they don't go up 

Wolves - by Fosun- Hit the jackpot with their owners

Cardiff - by Vincent Tan- Ups and downs would be fair to say, but overall a good owner it seems 

Reading - first by the Thai group and then by the Chinese- Dodgy

Watford - shortly before we came down by the Pozzo family- Good owners 

 

As for crowds and the clubs you mention, Watford aside , you couldn't really say any are thriving 

Wigan is too early to tell, but they seem likely to survive this season which is more than they managed in their last 2 seasons at this level under Whelan.

Forest's owner may be 'dodgy' but he's spent fortunes, put a strong structure in place and is rebuilding their stadium - so far so good

Derby's owner - invested millions and had them pushing for promotion every season

Wednesday owner - invested millions - 2x play-off campaigns under Carvalhal and now appointed one of the best in the business - good

Barnsley - took over mid-season when on the way to relegation - I actually see them as contenders for the Premier League in the not too distant future - they have money but more importantly people there with a plan - a bit like Brentford with the moneyball system.

Leeds - look like going up and finally getting it right - good for them

Sunderland - rebuilding after a poor owner in Short

Birmingham - maybe dodgy but haven't gone to League One and have invested heavily so far

Villa - still waiting for those FFP sanctions people seem to be expecting - managed to get 2 billionaires last summer and look like they might yet go up.

Wolves - hit the jackpot

Cardiff - learned from his mistakes, 2x Premier League promotions and wiped away their debts

Reading - not much happened there but they'll probably stay up again

Watford - weird way of working but has done them wonders.

Don't think I'd put any down as being as disastrous as Venkys - who delivered League One football AND £150 million of 'debt' that they won't get rid of

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3 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Wigan is too early to tell, but they seem likely to survive this season which is more than they managed in their last 2 seasons at this level under Whelan.

Forest's owner may be 'dodgy' but he's spent fortunes, put a strong structure in place and is rebuilding their stadium - so far so good

Derby's owner - invested millions and had them pushing for promotion every season

Wednesday owner - invested millions - 2x play-off campaigns under Carvalhal and now appointed one of the best in the business - good

Barnsley - took over mid-season when on the way to relegation - I actually see them as contenders for the Premier League in the not too distant future - they have money but more importantly people there with a plan - a bit like Brentford with the moneyball system.

Leeds - look like going up and finally getting it right - good for them

Sunderland - rebuilding after a poor owner in Short

Birmingham - maybe dodgy but haven't gone to League One and have invested heavily so far

Villa - still waiting for those FFP sanctions people seem to be expecting - managed to get 2 billionaires last summer and look like they might yet go up.

Wolves - hit the jackpot

Cardiff - learned from his mistakes, 2x Premier League promotions and wiped away their debts

Reading - not much happened there but they'll probably stay up again

Watford - weird way of working but has done them wonders.

Don't think I'd put any down as being as disastrous as Venkys - who delivered League One football AND £150 million of 'debt' that they won't get rid of

I would bet you any money fans of plenty of those clubs would strongly disagree with you! You also left out a number of clubs like :Hull, Swansea and QPR , who all got new owners who I would describe as either clueless or dodgy 

It's not all about ending up in League 1 as a marker to how bad the owners are 

As for your prediction about Barnsley, optimistic considering it looks like it's a straight fight between them and Sunderland for the last automatic promotion place in League 1. 

Edited by Bigdoggsteel
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Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

 

As for your prediction about Barnsley, optimistic considering it looks like it's a straight fight between them and Sunderland for the last automatic promotion place in League 1. 

Getting off topic but I reckon Barnsley and Sunderland automatic with Luton slipping out.

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1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

 

Bolton - by Ken Anderson/Dean Houldsworth worse

Wigan - by the Hong Kong group don't appear to be delivering anything they promised

Forest - by Al Hasawi and then Marinakis google the new owner. Things might look ok now, but he is dodgy

Derby - by Mel Morris Seem good

Sheff Wed - by Chansiri Time will tell, but before appointing bruce they were haveing a mare

Barnsley - by Chien Lee and co Ended up relegated 

Leeds - by Cellini and then Radrizzani A succession of basket case owners, this season being the exception of many , many years

Sunderland (just after relegation to Lge 1) - by Stewart Donald and co.- Succession of poor owners

Birmingham - by Trillion Trophy- Succession of dodgy owners 

Aston Villa - by Dr Xia and then by Sawiris and the American- Dodgy, Will certainly be under FFP restrictions if they don't go up 

Wolves - by Fosun- Hit the jackpot with their owners

Cardiff - by Vincent Tan- Ups and downs would be fair to say, but overall a good owner it seems 

Reading - first by the Thai group and then by the Chinese- Dodgy

Watford - shortly before we came down by the Pozzo family- Good owners 

 

As for crowds and the clubs you mention, Watford aside , you couldn't really say any are thriving 

Two relegations , a string of disastrous managerial appointments and the creation of a rudderless club suggest none of the above can match Venky's for ineptitude.

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19 minutes ago, MCMC1875 said:

I am not aware of any football business model, or indeed any business model, that can reduce costs at short notice to cope with the huge drop in income that relegation brings, the exception being Blackpool FC.

1. Distress sale of the highest wage earners

2. Relegation clauses inserted into contracts to reduce wages/bonuses

3. Redundancies of non-playing staff

4. Sale of fixed assets (ground, training ground) 

5. Securitisation of future season ticket revenue

...all of these have been tried at various times by various clubs...

 

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4 hours ago, MCMC1875 said:

I'm not aware of any example that has been successful, with the exception of Blackpool FC. The drop in income is just too great.

I’m not sure how you are defining success if you are offering up Blackpool (a basket case club if ever there was, thanks to owners, who ended up in the 4th tier) as an exception; but just considering the last 10 years or so, these clubs have been relegated and bounced back, some more than once, so they must have managed the transition to some extent :-

Newcastle Utd

Middlesbrough

WBA

Hull City

West Ham

Wolves

Fulham

Cardiff

and er....Burnley

 

 

 

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Let's not forget that not long ago Cairney was sold from under Bowyers nose out of the blue because allegedly a quick cash injection was needed, that proved the catalyst for another 20 millions worth out of the door including most of the big earners - that can be filed under debt reducing but look where it left us.

Then a season or two ago we have to sign near 40 year old free transfers for a defence, hire an utter moron for manager because he was cheap and take out mid season loans of about 5 million from football finance institutions just to keep the club going ala Bolton,( Cheston gets some well earned stick but he might have just played a blinder there) - Look where all that left us = relegation and lge 1 for first time in 40 years ! 

That can also be filled as cost cutting so when one or two on here are proclaiming Venkys have reduced the wage bill etc just think how it really came about it certainly wasn't some grand plan that they now deserve credit for. They dragged the club to the abyss and are more than capable of doing so again regardless of what losses they are funding or accounting illusions they create.

They can have a modicum of credit for holding their nerve after relegation they deserve that much but in reality only the lucky punt (25-1) on TM and him fitting the job well saved us from more pain.

Edited by tomphil
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A fan argument being touted about all this is that this is “not real debt”. It’s “only owed to Venkys”. They are “backing the manager and the club” and “we should applaud them”.

If this is the case, surely this means that if they do leave then they will be able to write off the debt and in theory leave only the football creditors as liabilities to pass on to the next owner.

Otherwise the debt is real and we should worry if it continues to grow. At the moment there looks to be no sign of this stopping - particularly when Waggott is at the same time capping our home attendance through a ridiculous pricing strategy. Even the vape company, our most prominent advertising at Ewood, is run by a huge Rovers fan so what else is being done to attract investment.

We are run by a cold, careless dictatorship!

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