Valérien Ismaël: Blackburn Rovers Head Coach

[RevidgeBlue]

21 minutes ago, TheFinalCountdown said:

Relegation is what they want.

Hard to argue against that isn't it when you consider what they did to Eustace and the experienced players, failing to give them any assurances on their futures and replacing them with Ismael and assorted Eurotrash.

The vast majority of us knew how it would turn out and so it's proving.

[JHRover]

33 minutes ago, TheFinalCountdown said:

This has season has been a carbon copy. Its relegation by design, to once again reduce costs and investments. 

Relegation is what they want.

Actions speak louder than words and their actions suggest you are entirely correct.

If this was the first time they had been down this road you might be able to forgive it and give them the benefit of the doubt - misguided, badly advised, not understanding the nature of the beast of the Championship and the inevitable consequence of radical cost cuts.

But they've done it all before, so unless they all have complete amnesia they will remember what happens when you do this. Yet they carry on with it. 

[G Somerset Rover]

Venkys: "We don't want to (or can't) sell - so trim costs further, if it means we slip a league again, no hassle. Just get the wage bill down as low as possible and ensure further investment is at an absolute minimum."

Pasha: "Understood"

[Athlete]

2 hours ago, JHRover said:

Anyone surprised, confused or under any illusions about this regime and their interest/reactions to league positions and results need only go and research / remind themselves of what happened the last time they relegated us in 2016/17

Appointed a joke of a manager, not just proven to be a flash in the pan/busted flush but also with the added bonus of his only success being in the dugout of our hated rivals.

Left him in place until mid-February even though from the word 'go' we were nailed on for the bottom 3 and anyone with any sense could see it was only going to end one way. 

Lessons learned? I think not

BTBH had Danny Graham and Charlie Mulgrew and guaranteed goals

[London blue]

2 minutes ago, G Somerset Rover said:

Venkys: "We don't want to (or can't) sell - so trim costs further, if it means we slip a league again, no hassle. Just get the wage bill down as low as possible and ensure further investment is at an absolute minimum."

Pasha: "Understood"

This is exactly what I believe to be happening.

One can argue whether or not that is truly deliberate but I don't think it matters.

As Mark is so keen on pointing out, sporting performance is not the priority here. Reducing overheads supercedes everything, which sadly includes hiring a no mark like Ismail and keeping him in the role despite atrocious performance.

[RevidgeBlue]

14 minutes ago, G Somerset Rover said:

Venkys: "We don't want to (or can't) sell - so trim costs further, if it means we slip a league again, no hassle. Just get the wage bill down as low as possible and ensure further investment is at an absolute minimum."

Pasha: "Understood"

I think it's more likely that the owners don't WANT to be relegated but that Pasha and Gestede (and Waggott when he was still here) pitched them this masterplan about how they could reduce the age of the squad with a view to selling players on, save a shitload of costs in terms of wages and STILL retain Championship status!

(Cue £ signs!)

In short the stooges have played Russian roulette with our Championship future and probably failed. The live bullet is about to go off.

I still dont think either that anyone has accounted properly for the loss of Championship TV Revenue if we go down plus all the other associated loss of revenue.  

The net position will be we'll be a lot worse off.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

8 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I think it's more likely that the owners don't WANT to be relegated but that Pasha and Gestede (and Waggott when he was still here) pitched them this masterplan about how they could reduce the age of the squad with a view to selling players on, save a shitload of costs in terms of wages and STILL retain Championship status!

(Cue £ signs!)

In short the stooges have played Russian roulette with our Championship future and probably failed. The live bullet is about to go off.

I still dont think either that anyone has accounted properly for the loss of Championship TV Revenue if we go down plus all the other associated loss of revenue.  

The net position will be we'll be a lot worse off.

So they just cut playing costs accordingly. In my opinion they couldn’t care one way or another as long as they don’t have to pay a £1 more than they need to.

[roversfan99]

I think its the wrong way round to suggest almost as if the stooges have convinced Venkys to cut back like we have. 

Venkys have no interest in the club. Ive no doubt that Suhail and Gestede are happy to oblige as is clear.

Championship clubs lose money because wages are so high and more often than not outstrip all income before considering other cost. Wages would massively come down further if we went down. But again, I am not convinced thats the aim, just an inevitable symptom.

[JHRover]

19 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I think it's more likely that the owners don't WANT to be relegated but that Pasha and Gestede (and Waggott when he was still here) pitched them this masterplan about how they could reduce the age of the squad with a view to selling players on, save a shitload of costs in terms of wages and STILL retain Championship status!

(Cue £ signs!)

In short the stooges have played Russian roulette with our Championship future and probably failed. The live bullet is about to go off.

I still dont think either that anyone has accounted properly for the loss of Championship TV Revenue if we go down plus all the other associated loss of revenue.  

The net position will be we'll be a lot worse off.

I think this lot - Pasha and Gestede - are arrogant

They have seen what Waggott and Mowbray were doing, and to a lesser degree JDT and Broughton, and think they can do as well if not better than them on a lower budget.

I think this arrogance continues today - a refusal to backtrack or make changes despite it leading us into the bottom 3, a refusal to seek a change of manager or change in transfer approach. I think they think that we genuinely are in a 'false position' based on injuries/back luck/statistics and that we will eventually get enough to get us over the line and they'll get a pat on the back from the money people running the show at the other end.

As you say - this is playing Russian Roulette with the club and its future. If it works then they get another year on the gravy train, a bonus and they can argue it was worth getting rid of Broughton, Eustace, Waggott and all those players because we've still got Championship income and significantly reduced costs whilst bringing in millions from sales.

But if it doesn't - and I don't think it will - we go down and there's another £10 million gap in the finances to plug. I don't think the owners or stooges will have seriously thought about this

[RevidgeBlue]

8 minutes ago, JHRover said:

But if it doesn't - and I don't think it will - we go down and there's another £10 million gap in the finances to plug. I don't think the owners or stooges will have seriously thought about this

Pretty sure they wouldn't have at the time.

They might be worrying about it by now.

Of course proper owners would be ringing the stooges up about now playing holy hell because we've recently dropped into the bottom 3.

Whether our lot care enough or have even noticed is of course very much up for debate.

[Tomphil2]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I think it's more likely that the owners don't WANT to be relegated but that Pasha and Gestede (and Waggott when he was still here) pitched them this masterplan about how they could reduce the age of the squad with a view to selling players on, save a shitload of costs in terms of wages and STILL retain Championship status!

(Cue £ signs!)

In short the stooges have played Russian roulette with our Championship future and probably failed. The live bullet is about to go off.

I still dont think either that anyone has accounted properly for the loss of Championship TV Revenue if we go down plus all the other associated loss of revenue.  

The net position will be we'll be a lot worse off.

I think that is exactly how its happened although imo the real drivers of this are hiding in the middle somewhere and this plan was hatched in the later days of Mowbray, hence them letting him go rather scruffily.

It nearly backfired spectacularly as JDT almost overachieved and raised the bar where they didn't want it but once he'd been reeled back in and him and GB weren't the right puppets Waggot regained control by prioritising league status over moneyball.

His card was well and truly marked then though so the 'middlemen' and their man Suhail bring in Rudy to shake things up and implement a more aggressive version of what they tried before. Removing every obstacle in the way with the ownerships blessing and installing his own puppets and data driven model.

And here we are.

[roversfan99]

The plan to cut costs stems from the owners. Thats the most logical conclusion.

The stooges are happy to oblige.

[AndyB]

I thought Balaji wanted his son to run the club at some stage & if I remember correctly the son was studying over here and attending matches.

Surely he should be saying "Hey Dad, those idiots you've got in charge are ruining the club and might cost you money by getting the club relegated"

[JHRover]

I still think there are two camps in India. One is the Balaji/Suhail camp which is running the show today and has run it in the past. The other is the Madame/husband camp which ran things when Bowyer and Mowbray were in charge.

When a manager gets the ability to go to India and meet the top dogs he comes back with power, money and ability to run the club in a semi-professional manner. 

That's because the top dogs can override/overrule the underlings and sanction spending that allows us to compete. Bowyer got it after his flight to India in 2013, Mowbray got it after his flight to India in 2017, and Waggott got a long tenure as CEO after his flight to India. 

When the top dogs are disengaged, as they were from 2015-2017 and as they have been now since about 2020-2021, into the void Balaji and his chums are able to play, albeit on a much smaller cost base than when the top dogs are involved. No big wages, no major outlays, player sales are needed to fund it, but between all that just do what you want, we ain't interested.

Last time around it led to relegation to the third division but stopped there because they summoned Mowbray out to India and he got his feet under the table and was allowed to run the club like a professional outfit. This time around that won't be happening because it seems the top dogs are well and truly out of the loop. 

[Tomphil2]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

The plan to cut costs stems from the owners. Thats the most logical conclusion.

The stooges are happy to oblige.

Owners say we need to lower costs what can you do about it ?

Advisers/directors running the club present a plan, owners sign it off.

That is how things tend to work.

[Tomphil2]

2 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I still think there are two camps in India. One is the Balaji/Suhail camp which is running the show today and has run it in the past. The other is the Madame/husband camp which ran things when Bowyer and Mowbray were in charge.

When a manager gets the ability to go to India and meet the top dogs he comes back with power, money and ability to run the club in a semi-professional manner. 

That's because the top dogs can override/overrule the underlings and sanction spending that allows us to compete. Bowyer got it after his flight to India in 2013, Mowbray got it after his flight to India in 2017, and Waggott got a long tenure as CEO after his flight to India. 

When the top dogs are disengaged, as they were from 2015-2017 and as they have been now since about 2020-2021, into the void Balaji and his chums are able to play, albeit on a much smaller cost base than when the top dogs are involved. No big wages, no major outlays, player sales are needed to fund it, but between all that just do what you want, we ain't interested.

Last time around it led to relegation to the third division but stopped there because they summoned Mowbray out to India and he got his feet under the table and was allowed to run the club like a professional outfit. This time around that won't be happening because it seems the top dogs are well and truly out of the loop. 

I think the top dogs lost interest and willingness to keep chucking money in years ago but Barry and his pals refuse to let go of it.

So they continue to play around with it but under serious financial restrictions from the top dogs who now just ignore it all.

Barry runs  the 'Venkys' arm of the company or should i say he is the name on that door so my take is he's been told use your profit from that for your playing the head company won't top it up anymore.

Hence he's allowed to keep his toy but the managed decline has ramped up a notch due to less available input.

[alcd]

2 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I think it's more likely that the owners don't WANT to be relegated but that Pasha and Gestede (and Waggott when he was still here) pitched them this masterplan about how they could reduce the age of the squad with a view to selling players on, save a shitload of costs in terms of wages and STILL retain Championship status!

(Cue £ signs!)

In short the stooges have played Russian roulette with our Championship future and probably failed. The live bullet is about to go off.

I still dont think either that anyone has accounted properly for the loss of Championship TV Revenue if we go down plus all the other associated loss of revenue.  

The net position will be we'll be a lot worse off.

No established L1 clubs lose as much as the current annual operating loss of £15 m ++ at Rovers. Wage bill would be slashed from current £25m (taking account of this season's reductions) probably to £10 at most. TV and solidarity receipts are less than £10m. Do the maths and you'll find the losses in L1 will be less than £10m.

[JHRover]

25 minutes ago, Tomphil2 said:

I think the top dogs lost interest and willingness to keep chucking money in years ago but Barry and his pals refuse to let go of it.

So they continue to play around with it but under serious financial restrictions from the top dogs who now just ignore it all.

Barry runs  the 'Venkys' arm of the company or should i say he is the name on that door so my take is he's been told use your profit from that for your playing the head company won't top it up anymore.

Hence he's allowed to keep his toy but the managed decline has ramped up a notch due to less available input.

Agreed, which I think is more or less what they did in 2015 when the penny dropped with the top dogs that this was going to keep on costing the family a ton of cash, so they took a step away and Balaji and his mates sidelined Bowyer and got control of things again. 

The top dogs then got a grip on it again after relegation - bypassing Pasha and summoning Mowbray to India for face to face talks - and because of Mowbray's skills around the table 'wonderful human beings' routine he tempted them back in - they liked him and his talk so agreed to throw their weight behind him on the basis he'd get us back up and in the mix. 

But then they lost faith with him after a couple of years of big losses and decided they'd had enough again, probably for good this time.

The only other element to this arrangement was Waggott, who had got himself set up here with the top dogs in similar fashion to Mowbray - a seat at the table in Pune and audience with Madame - and by virtue of that was untouchable to some degree - allowed to carry on with his hefty salary and some autonomy, including on recruitment (Eustace) and signings / expenditure.

This was a problem for those in control now because he had the ability to act as a counterweight and carried some clout, which they wanted rid of. I'd be intrigued to know how his departure came about and whether he saw the writing on the wall and got out before the real trouble came or whether those in control now finally managed to get those upstairs to get shut of him.

I keep on thinking back to Pasha talking about a new CEO and how that would be something he would find out about if/when it happened from India - that's because appointments of that nature have always been reserved to the top dogs and I don't think he's acting on their instructions any more. He'll find out like the rest of us if/when they ever get involved again.

[Tomphil2]

16 minutes ago, alcd said:

No established L1 clubs lose as much as the current annual operating loss of £15 m ++ at Rovers. Wage bill would be slashed from current £25m (taking account of this season's reductions) probably to £10 at most. TV and solidarity receipts are less than £10m. Do the maths and you'll find the losses in L1 will be less than £10m.

Yes the loses would only really be a massive hit if you continue to try and run on a Championship budget without the extra income that league brings.

If costs are immediately brought in line after relegation then so are the annual loses.

Far less budget is needed to tread water in league 1 than be a top contender for promotion or a championship ever present.

[wilsdenrover]

Last time we dropped to League one our operating loss for that year was £16.7 million.

This was with our wage bill falling by £5.2 million (to £16.8 million).

Turnover fell by £5.9 million.

Maybe they’d cut harder and faster this time but I think significantly losses would still occur. 

 

 

[K-Hod]

Suhail will keep any news of a potential sale away from the owners.

From his POV, he’s unemployed if they sell up and he’ll never have it easier in his life than he has here.

That’s what we’re up against, IMO.

[wilsdenrover]

2 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Suhail will keep any news of a potential sale away from the owners.

From his POV, he’s unemployed if they sell up and he’ll never have it easier in his life than he has here.

That’s what we’re up against, IMO.

Surely a potential buyer with any sense would approach the owners directly.

[RevidgeBlue]

12 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Last time we dropped to League one our operating loss for that year was £16.7 million.

This was with our wage bill falling by £5.2 million (to £16.8 million).

Turnover fell by £5.9 million.

Maybe they’d cut harder and faster this time but I think significantly losses would still occur. 

 

 

Has to.

TV income would be down £6m or £7m on it's own now without anything else being taken into consideration.

[Tomphil2]

7 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Last time we dropped to League one our operating loss for that year was £16.7 million.

This was with our wage bill falling by £5.2 million (to £16.8 million).

Turnover fell by £5.9 million.

Maybe they’d cut harder and faster this time but I think significantly losses would still occur. 

 

 

They had bounce back first time in mind last time though and even though wages dropped they were still double figure weekly pay for a lot of that squad.

Plus they spent a bit with promotion in mind.

The weekly wages of these players is no doubt in the main significantly less than last time and presuming they weren't going all out for an instant return there'd be a net transfer scenario rather than a minus one. That might well balance any initial shock to the losses column and depending on what they do with the academy after the first season costs could be pulled more in line with established lge 1 clubs.

A load more variables offer themselves up as well, bin the training ground and move everything to the academy to save rent. The academy would probably be bookmarked to provide most of the lge 1 playing squad moving forwards so that would need maintaining but not forking out for transfers and bigger wages balances that a bit.

Shelve work on the ground and pitch as standard required are lower plus areas of Ewood could be mothballed etc etc.

Scary stuff but Indian accountants thousands of miles away won't give a shit about all that.

[KentExile]

17 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Last time we dropped to League one our operating loss for that year was £16.7 million.

This was with our wage bill falling by £5.2 million (to £16.8 million).

Turnover fell by £5.9 million.

Maybe they’d cut harder and faster this time but I think significantly losses would still occur. 

 

 

Is it possible that last time they hadn't put massive wage reduction clauses into players contracts for relegation to League one?

But that this time they have? 

Still have the loss of revenue to factor in, as you say

Edited 1 hour ago by KentExile