An incredible job? How? Genuinely curious as to what is incredible about it. Staving off relegation in his first season (although admittedly that wasn't an easy ask)? Getting us promoted with one of the biggest budgets and a lower championship level squad - it's a decent achievement, maybe even good, but it's hardly incredible. This season - not sure what is incredible or even that he has got the best out of it. Firstly a run of 11 games with only 1 win is nearly a quarter of the season, so not sure where the majority of the season comes in. Secondly, which players have looked at their best - arguably Dack and Graham , but who else? It seems a bit contradictory to say they're a poor squad and TM is getting the best from them. Getting the best out of average players to me seems to suggest Sheffield United, or even a Preston or Bristol City type scenario, not where we are at. Equally I'm not buying that TM has been surprised by how poor they are - he got to see the vast majority of them in the championship pre-relegation in action, as well as work with them for a year in league 1 to assess their level. I'll agree some elements of the squad are hogwash but if within his first 2 years of working with them (pre-this season) TM hadn't spotted the likes of Evans and Williams were duffers then we really shouldn't be employing him. Spunking the best part of £7 million plus and having no visible signs of improvement in the squad is also a pretty damning indictment of TM too. Also I'd respectfully argue that Lenihen, Raya, Nayambe, Rothwell, Dack, Graham, Reid are all more than adequate at this level, and if utilized properly there's a number of talents who could effectively do a role in a championship team/squad (Bennett and Bell for two). But the system, other personnel selected and glaring holes in the squad negates a lot of the decent talent available. All in all I struggle to see the incredible job TM is doing. We agree he has some absolute dross in the team - but that is his fault, he's had 2 years to prepare this season's team to an adequate level. But also he has got some good and solid players who can do a job. The problem is TM isn't savvy enough to utilize the good stuff at his disposal or get rid of the dross.

Fair enough. Thought they were just outside the play offs for a time, but could be wrong. Either way it shows we're not guaranteed to be lower table fodder.

Not at all. happily I don't see the other teams having enough stomach or ability to do enough either. Let's take the next 2 games: Norwich to lose at home to Reading and Villa lose away at Rotherham - very unlikely one or both happens. Plus both Millwall and QPR cannot both get 3 points. Worst case scenario is Millwall get within 4 points of us, but that means QPR are still below us and on an equally appalling run.In short can't see this round of fixtures throwing up a ton of problems. The week after I grant you the next round of fixtures (on the 14th) could go against us, but again Brentford and Sheff Utd are both good teams, and the chances of both slipping up isn't exactly massive. Add in that Stoke dispatched us today so may be ok against relegation candidates. None of these are bankers that the relegation teams are going to win, and again the chances of all 4 of the relegation candidate teams getting those wins aren't great. They're near the relegation zone because they haven't won many of these matches. Honestly I don't think in two games time we'll be in a much worse off position than we are now.

Answered in another thread but all 3 teams getting 3 wins from 6 and QPR rectifying their abysmal form isn't likely to happen. Just this week QPR play Millwall - both teams can't win and Reading play Norwich - very unlikely for a slip up, giving us another game's grace. The fight for the playoffs is also still pretty fierce which suggests (albeit no guarantee) that when the teams below us face teams fighting for the playoffs there's less chance of complacency/players being rested or a Huddersfield situation. I just can't see it, even if we are trying to claw ourselves into the relegation mix - we're going to fail at that too.

This is one of the things that really peed me off today. Just why? Even if we weren't going on performance levels, enough to give both the heave ho from the team, why did we need 2 defensive mids against a team that had not scored in 4 games? I'm not a big fan of TM worrying about the opposition, but in this case the evidence clearly showed there was nothing even to worry about. Or maybe he was looking longer term and worried about how prior to that spell they'd been one of the strongest teams in the division - hang on that's not true either. There was no reason whatsoever for this combination tactically or based on their performances. Also if he knew Dack was out - and I think we all know that was horse manure, but assuming it was true - surely lacking our most creative midfielder (when he can be arsed) suggested again we would need a bit more creativity in the middle. Then there's other inexplicable decisions. When our centre back goes off injured (what a surprise) why replace him with the reserve left back not the other centre half? Why slot Bennett at rb when Bereton came on, rather than keep on a proper full back? Clueless doesn't begin to describe it.

Not saying he's anywhere near on a level as those odious snakes but that is exactly the kind of comment with flawed logic that Coyle or Kean would make.

Our appalling run has lasted nearly a quarter of the season. in a 46 game season extrapolating our current form, and giving maximum points for the remaining 2 games, that would give us 22 points... (Or I'm really bad at maths!) This is not a poor run of form, this is where the team is at.

Comments like this make me wonder if TM is as "honest" as people say he is. Also even if true, don't a lot of clubs insist players stay and watch the game? (Could be wrong on this but am sure I read it somewhere.) No control over the senior players whatsoever.

The man management of Dack is another negative for TM - like he needed more. The sad fact is a fair number of footballers are muppets, and there have always been difficult players to manage since football was invented. Good managers can do it. It seems this might be another skill that TM lacks. His treatment of Mulgrew and other senior players backs up this concern.

Another week, another loss, and still we haven't dropped down the table. QPR are in competition with us to see if they can go on a worse run, Bolton are ensuring that there is only one relegation place left, whilst Millwall, Reading and Rotherham are all still 7 points below us with inferior goal differences. This means that all 3 teams need to win 3 of 6 (or 7) to overtake us, without us doing anything and QPR need to get out of their slump before us. I know we're poor but all 4 of those teams doing well enough to overtake us - no chance. TM is a very lucky man there's so many poor teams. Edit - also looking at the top end of the table the top 2 teams Norwich and Sheff Utd have not had huge budgets and any real advantage over us (other than no fruit loop owners) so the idea we're automatically bound to be lower table fodder is horse manure. The fact Preston and Bristol City have also had decent seasons and made a push for playoffs is further evidence that there's no inevitability about us being a lower table team. Sure it may have been a bit much this season, but it is not ludicrous to look up as well as down. Top 6 Premiership mini-league the championship is not.

To be honest I blame Kean, Coyle and Venkys for this too. After seeing dishonesty and obvious dodgy dealings flaunted through the club, a chap who a) clearly isn't like this, and b) has something positive to his name (the only positive thing since Venkys rocked up) is bound to get a well of goodwill. Just in comparison to the above, he is head and shoulders above them, and this if nothing else makes him bomb proof. Problem is whilst TM is head and shoulders above the aforementioned, he's still inept and it is going to cost us big time over the next 6 months.

Some reflections/conclusions from today's match: 1) We can't write off our academy players based on this season. Raya's made a fair share of errors but today showed he has talent, and the potential to be a quality keeper. Today showed he has got ability, and isn't a duffer worth writing off (I think there have been other occasions when this has been shown but today is a clear example of it.) Given he's been singled out by the manager, and has to play with some absolutely comical defenders, I'm not surprised there's been a few clangers in there. A much fairer assessment could be made under a proper coaching set up, with a decent defense in front of him, and a team that doesn't invite continual pressure, as to Raya's actual level. The same could be said for Nayambe, Lenihen and Travis too. They've all shown promise and potential, but the current set up doesn't allow them a fair evaluation imo. 2) Square pegs round roles. Bennett had a shocker but let's be honest when he's set up to be one of the key attacking talents, he always was going to struggle. Bennett has his uses, especially his engine, which as one of the 2 more defensive mids would allow him to shine. However, when the onus is for him to be one of the main attacking midfielders he was never going to come out with any glory. Armstrong hasn't the physical presence or ability to do anything other than watch the game go by, so along with Rothwell there is a lot of pressure on Bennett to create, which has never been his forte. Even playing Smallwood/Evans at centre mid - smart move, because Stoke have a ferocious scoring record of late - was going to make it an even tough ask for Bennett to create because the 3 would get no support from the 2 behind them. I'd imagine Bennett as one of the 2, or even one of the 3 with Dack and Rothwell as the 2, (especially with Travis and Reid behind them) would see Bennett make a much better contribution to the game. Likewise, Smallwood and Evans together are just going to drag each other down as both offer similar abilities, making their lack of attacking prowess even more pronounced. Our team may be hapless but TM is making it a lot more apparent with some awful selections and combinations. 3) Plan B doesn't exist Now it's fair to say Plan A hasn't worked for a while, but the problem is there's no Plan B. Change the formation? Hard to go 2 up front when you only have one Championship level striker. Change the style to playing it along the ground - a decent striker who suits that game plan is needed for that to work. And more creativity than just Dack or Rothwell in the hole. Pace down the wings - would help if we actually had Chapman in the squad. 3 centre backs, we have only 3 in the squad and they're all injury prone. 4-2-3-1 is really not working, but there aren't too many viable alternatives. Mainly because we don't have the players to do so. Well played Tony. 4) Short term or long term? No youngsters played till we're safe - not thinking about the future until we've got the magical 50 points (even though we aren't in any danger of going down but still let's run with it). So if short term wins are the order of the day why isn't Reid in the team? He's shown himself to be our best centre mid so why not put him in the team if it's all about getting points. And if we're not because he won't be here in the future, then why not throw in a few more youngsters for development. What TM says and what he does is totally contradictory - and whilst I've debated on other threads if this shows him to be a good man or has less morals, the very best interpretation is he's lost the plot. Overall another worrying defeat as the team spirals downwards. 4 from 33 is an appalling record and Stoke have been poor of late, so no way can this be seen as anything other than a terrible result.

Nah, they'd still need 3 out of 6 AND Wigan, QPR and Reading need to do better than us. Not going to happen. It TM was unlucky when we went down that such a high amount of points. This time he's very lucky that there are so many poor teams.

I always thought the adage was don't change a winning team not a losing one. Completely upside down view by TM. The other batnuts thing about it all is if it's to avoid relegation then TM hasn't checked the table recently. 1 relegation place left. On what planet are Millwall and Rotherham going to both make up 10 points on us? Wigan, QPR and Reading - none of whom are good or on particularly great runs are still comfortably below us too. Relegation is just another excuse to play his favourites. I'm sure if we win it'll change to got to keep the lads in who have performed well unless their name is Joe. The inmates are running the asylum these days and that can only go 1 way.

The 4 points from 30 may suggest otherwise. The last 2 windows being fluffed too... Heck I've written a list on another thread - have a look at that for all the reasons I think he's on a downward spiral. Granted we had a good Jan with 4 wins (I think?) But overall 2019 and the back end of 18 has seen a lot more downs than ups. There'll always be a few blips or positives even with a good/bad manager - beating Manure under Kean and Dalglish's last few league games before we got promotion are 2 blips in trend that immediately spring to mind, but I don't see any compelling evidence that we are heading in the right direction. And not sure stats or events overall back up a positive outlook.

I bet with a decent manager organizing them, and ideally, but not essentially a proper leader at centre back, both Lenihen and Nayambe would improve vastly. Both have a fair amount of talent, but are being dragged down and not pushed to their best by the current set up.

Also worth mentioning Cardiff were awful. Beyond awful when Warnock took over and one of the weakest teams in the division. The question of managers' performances is of trajectory and is it upwards or downwards. Hard to say TM isn't on a downward spiral at the moment.

A team which haven't scored in 4 and are mid-table with nothing to play for. Really should be looking and expecting to win this one. That said, I'd imagine a draw. I'd also expect them to break their scoring duck, but given we're normally good for a goal and they aren't prolific then a draw is probably on the cards. Incidentally having seen our run in, it would be criminal not to get at the very, very least a further 6 points. I'd imagine a win vs Bolton, then draws vs Stoke, QPR and Swansea, although all 3 of those games are pretty winnable. I think 6 is the bare minimum we should get and any less than this is a huge failure.

Perhaps should have posted this in this thread instead. Why TM should go.

Not sure I buy the "we've got mid table/survival and consolidation was what we were aiming for so all's good" argument. Let's say you hire me to drive you to the airport. The first half of the journey is great, and I even know a few shortcuts so we're getting there quicker than you had hoped. But then half way through I suddenly have a few near misses with other cars, almost cause collisions, run a couple of red lights, and don't use my mirrors. No harm happens, but it's hairy. Not only that after the first near miss I acknowledge I need to watch the traffic better, pay more attention, and check my mirrors, but then continue to do none of that, and the journey continues into chaos, but fortunately no damage. Oh, and I have glasses to help me see the road better, but I only put them on when I'm struggling. You're telling me you'd get in the car with me again after that? What confidence would you have for me to get you safely back from the airport when you need a ride home? Which is why TM must go. Not because this season we're not where we should be but because of the manner of it. The 4 points out of 30. The blind stupidity of only having 3 injury prone centre backs on the books. The exclusion of Rothwell, and to a lesser extent Chapman, the continuation of favourites in the side regardless of how well they play, The only having 3 genuine goal threats in the team. The awful interviews of absolute horse manure (like Mulgrew's hamstring went because I shouted at him being my favourite). Wasting £7 million on Bereton, Not signing players who fit a system, I ask on what basis can there be confidence that TM is going to do better next season? Give him a transfer window to sort it out? He's not sorting out the little things he can adjust week to week. He's not adjusted anything in the last 2 transfer windows. The only argument with any validity as I see it to TM staying is they'll get someone worse and that's a genuine fear and possibility imo. But let's not confuse that with TM being a good manager. A decent bloke possibly, though his comments of late have got me wobbling a bit on that. A good manager - not a chance.

Another of many holes in TM's theory is that Armstrong offers the square root of naff all defensively yet keeps his place in the side. Not sure how he can call for defensive wingers and play Armstrong . And Armstrong hasn't contributed much to the attack either. We've a manager utterly stuck in playing favourites and it's costing us big time.

Yes agree that is frustrating and worse contributes to people forgetting the good work he did last season. At least with Smallwood he was very useful and even now is an upgrade on Lowe. Sadly limited defensive mids are a shoe in in our team. Still think there's a role for Smallwood as a squad player coming on to close games out but it is not the role TM has for him.

Smallwood was a good signing for last year, just what we needed someone to get stuck in. Not sure he is championship quality bar more than a squad player but he was signed last year to get us promoted which he contributed well to. Bell I'm torn on and perhaps not the best example to use. Think he has the attributes but performance and concentration wise - plus reports on here - are mixed at best. Perhaps Armstrong this year would be a better useage. Davenport I used because he hasn't played or contributed anything. Same with Chapman. Am sure he has some talent but if they can't or won't be allowed on the pitch they're a poor signing just wasting money. That we are differing over examples used rather than the point itself points to how bad recruitment is.

I think the most pertinent question is do people have have faith TM can rectify our problems ? Given how long it took to get us up and running last season, his transfer dealings over the last 4 windows combined with a beyond absymal run of form, I'd say no. Any manager can have a run of good or bad results the question is whether looking at the wider picture you feel they can turn it round. I've not seen enough evidence in 3 years that TM can. For that matter what manager has recovered from such a shocking run aside from teht bigger picture stuff (appreciate that's another argument though!)

The fact that 5 games ago Rotherham needed 4 wins and they're still in that situation suggests they ain't going to do it. Am certain we'll continue to slide down the table and not get relegated. Just checked Millwall are also 10 points below us too so both would need to have a heck of a run of form for us to go down. No way both bad teams will do so. Add in there's a few other teams still below us - Reading, Wigan - who somehow we still have a 6/7 point lead over so there's also the possibility their form won't overtake us with so few games too. All in all there's enough dross for us to sleep soundly this season.