West Brom should have stuck with Ishmael. He had them near (in?) the playoffs and was a striker and some finished chances away from getting it right. They weren't miles off. And had Dyke (the IS striker they got) not got injured when signed it could have been a different story. To me their problems were obvious but rectifiable under the old regime. Now there's a load more issues.

I'm all for giving JDT time and patience but what a woeful performance and result. Given the run we were on last season, the way the team was decimated in close season - to a paper thin squad anyway - and it was always odds on this season would be a struggle. That said JDT isn't immune to criticism. Not sure Hedges is that good, I mean the shower that was signed at the same time of him makes him seem good, but his attacking potential will never be realised at wing back. And some of his signings Hirst in particular look way below the standard needed. Biggest issue is though we need experience. Tough guys who can mix it and have the mentality to be up for the fight. Every successful Rovers team has had this, whereas when I look at this team there's so little steel in it - mentally or physically - that it's no wonder we told when plan A doesn't go as hoped. Fix that, and get a few of the new signings correct, and we could go places. We're not turning up half the time and still up near the top. If we don't we will continue to struggle.

Maybe it's me but I'd say a sign they learned from their mistakes is potting a manager who repeatedly takes you on months -long relegation form. Or don't let your best assets leave for nothing. Or getting rid of Waggot. I think the evidence points to them not having learned whatsoever. (Which in fairness to the managers has benefited and hindered them.)

What a nice win. Sounds like a really good performance all round, and good that our most expensive transfer (this time round) has been involved with the goals. Hopefully this will do him the world of good. For all our poor performances and faffing about at the back with it, we are also just as capable of a solid victory - and this was a strong victory. This (along with the other victories) should warrant JDT gets more time and patience with the dodge performances and results that are mixed in with them. Also worth noting it was much needed after a few poor results so stopping the rot was key too. Mind you good runs, bad runs or otherwise a 3-0 is always welcome!

Chaddy please can we differentiate between getting behind someone and providing honest criticism? I'd love for him to prove me wrong and score 30 goals en route to promotion. I'm behind the lad. Objectively saying I think he isn't very good has nothing to do with my intent or support for him, and is an appraisal of his ability. And both his record to date and his performances for us warrant such an appraisal.

Ok, I'll rephrase my comments: If with all of that research they've decided that Hirst is who they want as first choice then I'd question their competence and judgement! No signing is a guaranteed success or fail and there's still time to pull it round. However on what I have seen, and his past history, Hirst doesn't seem at all good enough to improve our forward line. I think the experts have made a bad call.

If Hirst was first choice than I really don't see what the experts have over on fans. Maybe he'll come good in 3 plus years, it happened with Bereton. Even less so than then though we don't really have time to wait that long for someone to come good. As for being able to strengthen in Jan and not doing - my word was TM deliberately trying to not get us promoted?

I'm still backing JDT and here are my reasons why: 1) What he inherited. Where to start? A team on a half season relegation form run, a team with 5 years of TM's culture of apathy behind it. A squad shorn of some key players from last season including the player of the year and captain, with a raft of other squad losses too. A squad of limited experience. It was a pretty rubbish situation JDT inherited. The signings of the previous transfer window to his arrival were gash and have added very little. And I don't think it was his pre season plans and he arrived late. Hardly ideal circumstances, especially the neglect of the squad coming home to roost. 2) It takes time I recall Hughes first half season being pretty woeful. Likewise Souness in his end of season before his first full season. Even TMs successful league 1 campaign took a while to get going. Admittedly not like for like as the first 2 examples didn't have a transfer window but unsure if either had quite as hard a situation as the one inherited. Either way I think the time principle still holds true in part. 3) JDT has to learn what doesn't work Same as Hughes had to learn Emerton wasn't a left winger and Amoruso wasn't a centre back for himself (although we all knew it) JDT has to have given everyone a clean slate and learn for himself what works and doesn't work. Hopefully he's a quick learner but in fairness the clean slate principle does mean that things we know from seeing us the last few seasons, will take a bit of time for JDT to uncover. We have to remember JDT hasn't seen said issues and errors over the long period of time we have. That said the penny should be beginning to drop and some trials have by now had a fair crack of the whip. (Imo some things need more than a game to assess whether they can work or not, one game can be misleading.) 4) Our position Despite all the worries and the poor form we still have a solid amount of points and are top 10. That's not a bad position to be in when things aren't quite working and a decent base to start from. We are picking up some wins and we aren't in danger of relegation so it's not a bad base to be building from before it clicks. If we were struggling for points the situation would be more worrying and pressing. 5)He's not TM Entirely subjective and not a good rational reason but not being that odious, lying self-serving former manager is a big plus that endears him to me. Makes me more willing to give him a bit of time. I should add there are some concerns. The main 2 for me is when we lose we seem to get hammered which suggests a fragility to the team which perhaps goes beyond the lost games. Whether it's an inability to sort things out or adjust or mental fragility it could be quite worrying. Hopefully it is "just" part of the learning process and goes away but I can see how it can be interpreted (and may be) a worrying trend. Hopefully another window for a few more options and a bit longer working with the squad and this will go away. Appreciate there aren't any guarantees on that mind! Second big concern is around our transfers. The lad from Peterborough sounded exactly what we wanted and yet hasn't worked out, which is disappointing. If those signings don't come off, then you do wonder what will. Again, hopefully, as JDT imprints his style and gets his squad his form will improve. The one that really worried me is Hirst as he didn't sound like a striker good enough to lead the line, nor is he appearing like it. If he is the type we are aiming at we have some issues. Hopefully (again) with time we can use JDTs Scandinavian contacts and get better quality and this was a B list player. I'm hoping the concerns are ironed out and whilst there's no certainty I this will happen, I do think that the reasons outlined means that JDT should be given time to address them and why it's not all doom and gloom.

Well Gav this is daft - of course net spend matters. As in that shows it's a well run club. It shows that they have generated income to invest in players. It shows that clubs can generate the money needed to get promoted without needing parachute payments (which I think was the initial main point?) I will grant you there is an element of speculate to accumulate being shown, but then most clubs can do that. And in fact in some of the cases they didn't need that much money to speculate/ to start off getting promoted whatsoever. Burnley first time round springs to mind, Huddersfield, Norwich first time round, Brentford - who generated all their own cash. All good examples of loads of money not absolutely being needed to build to success. I'd also say playoffs isn't totally irrelevant as if you can get in them you have a chance of promotion. They are a bit of a lottery. It's not the most compelling argument I grant you but it does mean there is a chance, and on rare occasions the small spending club can get promoted (Bournmouth first time? Blackpool). Anyhow IF Rovers had invested their money better than maybe we'd have the money to speculate. How much was lost from the trio who walked for nothing this summer? How much was lost at not selling Armstrong and Bereton at the right time? (Albeit the former fetched a decent price of which some should have been invested, to invest absolutely nothing was poor.) How much lost in not selling Bereton. Dare I mention the £5 mil spunked on Gally We haven't protected or sold assets well so we haven't generated income the way other clubs have done so. Had we managed this a bit better than maybe we would be able to generate better fees and buy better players and trade up. Plus we have the advantage of an excellent academy. And the manager had more time than any predecessor. So they aren't totally hard done to even under the shambles of Venkys.

Agree, both are probably on thin ice. Bruce more so in my mind, but that's more my gut than any rational. Should go for Rowett, he's constantly getting Millwall to punch above their weight. Did likewise at Brum. And that's what they need given their respective squads' quality.

Pedant alert but Flitcroft did play wide right mid a couple of times under Hodgeson I think. The Manure home game is one of those times that sticks in the mind. As for Tugays invisible friend there was a time I can recall that happening but i'm also pretty sure (unless the memory is playing tricks on me) that it was for about one season and then he picked back up again.

Poor old Tony. It's tough when you get no support from the owners. The fact they let him spend 7 million (a huge sum for us) on a player who did nothing for 2 years - goodness what horrible support. The fact that those nasty owners didn't can him in any one of three lengthy death spirals - weren't they against him? Actually this does annoy me for their wanton disregard for Rovers, but it's taking the piss to say he wasn't supported when they stuck with him during some very bad runs. On that point maybe the reason we didn't progress is perhaps down to those death spirals? It's a school of thought.

Billy MacKinlay got booked in every game he played for us.

Was he the lad who played up front with Gally in the reserves? Looked the better of the too but was very small for a footballer (assuming I'm thinking of the right chap.)

Actually Jim quite the reverse. He said last season he had to work with what he had and could make limited changes and shouldn't be judged on it. However he also said that he'd been fantastically backed this season and it was his team, so there were no excuses. He was happy to be assessed on this team as it was the one he had built. It was all very refreshing.

I think boom and bust sums us up pretty well. We are either excellent or absymal which suggests we are a bit of a one trick pony. A clever trick mind as when it works, it works, but one a fair few teams seem to be able to outwit. I'll say this. On one hand boom and bust means that there's more busts and negatives than win draw loss which may make fans have a more negative opinion. (And admittedly more negative experiences!) But there are more booms and W L gives more points than W D L. And is it really worse than the positive and negative streaks we had under TM? Certainly strikes me as no more inconsistent albeit the hammerings on a regular basis may leave fans more jaded. For what it's worth my view is he got a pretty crap hand. 3 years plus of TMs transfer issues coming home to roost leaving a very depleted squad. Getting transfers in also seemed to take a fair while. Yes the signs are all far from positive but not having TM in the dugout is a plus. Add in that some of the errors are things he has to learn as he had a clean slate for everyone and we'll, because he was new! We knew JRC isn't a full back but he had to discover that for himself, for example. If the same mistakes keep being made a few months down the line then there is cause for concern but at this stage severe inconsistency isn't a worry. It's standard Rovers and given the situation he was dealt is probably as good as we could hope for. If we don't develop though, if he doesn't learn from his mistakes, if players don't bed in, there's more of a debate to be had. But as it is at this stage I'm not dissatisfied.

Well! I missed the Bradley Orr stuff at the time so only just seen this now. To be honest I can't get past the cricket ball story. Given the odious one was making up stories to slander fans, there's no way he'd have passed up on an opportunity to play the victim with this event. Add in the fact no camera saw it, no one else has ever reported it - fan, neutral, within the club or outside and you get the feeling it's a whopper. Goodness even the fact that security was heavy handed and searching in those days and the likelihood of getting a ball in there is pretty slim. No it's an utter lie. One to cover/excuse his K*an defence interview which even he in hindsight knows was a bad move. It's an unconvincing lie at that too, showing him once again to be the think unprincipled pond scum that he is. A few other things to note as others have said: the 4 year contract straight after shows he was up to his neck in the muck going on. And for an observant guy he didn't half miss K*an spouting a load of bull and being tactically clueless. Strange how he misses all of that yet spots a cricket ball no one else does... As for complaint about being forced out. Given that's what he was brought to do with a proper right back in Salgado I have little sympathy even if true.

He reminded me of Reid another ex Millwall winger we recruited whose attributes - ie physical with a fair whack of energy - looked far better suited to centre of the park. Of course whilst that worked fantastically for Reid under Hughes, it wasn't really tried with Taylor.

Sorry @chaddyroversi think Schofield was a terrible appointment. For starters how many times does a number 2 or caretaker guy do well at the club they were number 2 at? Almost never. Even us with Hartford have seen this. No idea why chairmen think this will work after it failing time after time. when number 2s do make it, which there is no guarantee of, it's often with another club and a fresh start. Then there was his inexperience. Not ideal at this level to have no managerial experience. It's a steep learning curve. then there's the continuity factor. Whilst they was a big reason for appointing him, given the manager and assistant manager left plus some key players, plus the abrupt nature of him leaving, I do question how much continuity there can be in these circumstances. Also does the plan of eventual successor mean he was ready now? To me I don't think I'd have been pushing continuity in these circumstances. Finally results. Whilst I appreciate in the short-term they can at times be a bit misleading (K*an in the championship, McCarthy's start at Cardiff) they still were pretty poor and not a great indicator that jr was going to come good. In fact they were in danger imo, along with Coventry, of being cut adrift. Wins are key in this division and he just wasn't getting them. So yeah for me it was a bad mistake, which they are looking to quickly rectify.

I totally get where you are coming from and see the reasoning. The problem with this is - beyond is the past forgivable - is you can't draw a line when one party is still screwing over the other. There has been so many muck ups over the last few years alone, and imo, they continue to run us in a shoddy manner. How do you draw a line under things when one party continues to do what caused the rift in the first place? How do you move on when the same issues remain (much less any statement of regret or apology, albeit these are wishful thinking)? How can you draw a line under it when one party clearly and demonstrably doesn't care? Tbh I think the majority or at least a decent number of fans would welcome them. However that doesn't seem to have increased their inclination to be involved or visit. In fact their lack of attendance again underlines why we can't move on. They just don't give a stuff.

YES!!!!!!!!!!! Two top posts showing how Venkys are utterly the problem and not at all the solution. A few things to add: 1) Can we move on from what Venkys have done? I mean they've destroyed a premiership club, loaded debt onto the club and halved the fan base. Is that forgivable? 2) Maybe if there was some regret and things had moved on, perhaps there could be a debate on foegivwness. (It's still too much in my view.) However they clearly still don't care at all about us - evidenced by letting TM have the entirety of the last half of the season, player contracts all running down, state of Ewood, Waggot, to name.a few. It's not just a debate on past crimes - it's still ongoing. To me this negates any discussion of forgiveness. How can you even think of this when they still are harming you? 3) We're slowly sinking under Venkys. Established prem club, relegation candidates and relegated. One of the bigger Championship teams. Now a middling championship team - who haven't even made the playoffs in their reign. The trajectory is all one way and will continue that way. What's there to like?

Really? I'd say the cost of having to replace them may say otherwise! Even standing still (assuming they all do as well, which isn't a given) has cost us a pretty penny. Hopefully they all turn out better and it's hard with hypothetical, but I wonder if all 3 remaining - which would have been cheaper - and the money gone in to one or two additional signings might have been better for us long term. Hard to say as a hypothetical though.

Evening all! Just catching up with the last few days and a few thoughts. 1) Pleased with the loan to buys for us. Given our comparative lack of finance a try before you buy approach limits the risk for us, however if they are good it improves the team for more than one season as we can buy them. 2) Whether now or January - the now depending on of we have adequate replacement(s) lined up - we need to sell Bereton. Replacing him with zero money would be very hard to do. This way we get something for him to help replace him (directly or otherwise.) Yes, there's a danger of us maybe going down without him, however that danger is just as real next season when he definitely won't be here with no money in to replace him. I guess you could say the squad would be better but I doubt it would be vastly better than now both as a) in terms of turnover of players in that time it wouldn't be masses different and b) our budget next year having to prioritise a Bereton replacement.

@mackemlad@SAFCfaninpeace All this talk of a man of integrity is also a load of bull. He is not honest. His biggest/best (worst?) lie was saying Rovers fans still expected 95 and Shearer and Sutton. I mean aside from being absolute bollocks, no failing manager, not even when we were in the premiership ever alluded to such a blatant lie as an excuse. Then there was the lie that the team had to get used to the championship despite the vast majority of the team having some significant experience of the league and us being in league 1 for one whole season. Or explaining a bad start to the season on adjusting to not having Danny Graham that year despite rendering Graham a bit part player the year before. Blaming fans for a players injury. All the other stuff about death spirals and idiotic playing players out of.position is true as well. Yeah, you've got a dud.

I see the media saying how hard done to he was and how hard it was for him to compete without backing. Such selective memories given what he spent in January. Amnesia it seems is rife in football.