I appreciate the way you disagree well when we have different opinions. I can see what you are saying - end of last season was probably the best time for a clean break. I think where we differ is how much progress we see. You cite the good performances Vs top teams but we have also played pretty badly (and got results) Vs weaker teams. So on performance levels I'm not really sure that they are that much of an endorsement of TM and his ability and the chance to make up the points. We disagree with how big a gap 6 points is. I see it as large and my last post stated why, you see it as not that big. I guess there's an element of glass half full/half empty although I feel quite strongly that it's not much of an only! Perhaps it's a context thing. Under a different manager perhaps I would be confident we could make it back up whereas under TM i don't. Perhaps it's also situational as in its 3 years in, we bottle top 6 each year, we can't beat the teams above us etc. Maybe it's the fact there are so many teams above us. Rambling a bit but basically I think it's the situation around the 6 points as well as the actual points difference that makes me less optimistic.

Good question. I would say with the right people around him Lenihen is definitely a yes, Williams a no. Look at how Lenihen did with Tosin - each one clearly had their own role at centre back and the partnership worked well. Get the right partner and we have two good players. Williams is ok. A few good games, a few bad ones too, and with fitness issues to boot not really enough to be warranting a place in the squad. Would definitely looking for someone a tad more consistent on both injury and form front. It's a bit of a moot debate though as we never spend on the defence.

Think that you highlight a few of the problems in your post. Firstly whilst we play them again, we haven't actually beaten any of the top teams so it's not a huge cause for optimism. Secondly they also all play each other - which means some will drop points but equally others will definitely gain some, which leaves us still trying to catch teams. Thirdly the one week of 9 points analogy doesn't really work either. As that would mean we would need 6 of the 11 teams above us to get 3 or less points to break into the playoffs. I take your point that we may be a lot closer after this run of 3 wins, but even then it isn't in the playoffs. Which shows we are a fair way off. To have so many teams above us pick up so few points is a statistical improbability. It's highly unlikely. Not to mention there is no room for error for us! And let's say a team keeps pace with us, say 6th to 8th match our 7 or 9 point week and 9th to 11th drop behind us. That would mean we would need another week where we win all three and 6th to 8th all get three points or less. Again, the likelihood isn't great. We are already playing long odds. Btw I should stress I am not throwing in the towel. We should fight with every last breath in our bodies, play for the badge and the shirt, make sure 100% is given, every player can look the fans in the eye and say they did their best and have their all. From TM to the kit man everyone should be doing their damnedest to get us promoted. Every effort should be made. it's still pssoble. However, I fear it is far from probable.

The 6 points as an argument is highly optimistic on so many levels. First off we've not managed to catch up those points ever before. Under Bowyer or TM we've never caught up those only points ever. Doesn't matter how good or poor the team we haven't broken the glass ceiling of playoffs. Secondly it massively assumes none of the teams above us are going to get points. It assumes those in the playoffs are obliging to not pick up any points, nor the teams from 7th to 11th. Optimistic in the extreme. At present even if we do our part of the bargain (unlikely) we need at least 5 teams above us to do worse. Then there's assuming there's no other team just below us that doesn't do better than us too. Although at least with that one it's in our hands. Sure teams do make a surge but whilst I hope I'm wrong I really don't think it will be us.

Disagree on Williams, Lenihen can be excellent or poor depending on who is around him. Also getting and keeping that lot fit is a real challenge. Plenty of work to be done on the defence imo, although left back has to be priority.

Hmm would say perhaps that's the reason to get rid. If he can't get this lot close then he never will. We don't agree much but that is a fear I definitely share. The problem is our recruitment policy for a manager is pretty horrific seemingly coming from one agency. It is a heck of a risk. My counter is that a) I feel with increasing certainly TM won't get us promoted, thereby lowering the risk of a gamble. And b) like Bowyer TM seems to have run his course, can't get the best out of what he has and will therefore struggle as cutbacks are made. The more I think on it, it really seems like just before the season Bowyer was sacked with us underachieving with a talented squad. IF the new man could be brought in before the squad starts getting dismantled it might be enough to break the cycle and push us to promotion or at least playoffs. Fairly confident within a year there will be no Nayambe, Elliott and Armstrong so this season imo is our last chance to stop history repeating itself. It's a risk no doubt but it's a risk Vs the certainty of stagnation under TM.

A few good and realistic names there. Some I think no chance they would come. Also, why can we only appoint managers out of work? Surely we could seek to approach the right candidate who is in a job?

Which by then may be too late. And also I think we may know well before then too. Tbh I think it comes down to whether people think TM deserves a full season. Statistically - as in results and position - there doesn't seem much evidence for progress. On paper the squad and goals scored column suggest progress. Personally would go with the statistics and say time to go. If we are going on his previous years here for warranting the whole season I think that's very sketchy ground for keeping him due to the number of mistakes made.

Once one or two of our best players go, the rebuild will start again, as will.the give him time clock. Outside of Ewood I have never seen a manager get so much time. It's crazy. Also it's a load of bull. Reading and Boro are two teams not waiting 3+ years for a manager to launch a promotion bid. Why we and we alone need time and are a project is beyond me.

That's what gets me. We have no plan B for playing better teams. I highlighted it before and whilst I am.suoer grateful we now have a plan A if really doesn't work against the better teams. What's even more frustrating is this is meant to be our strongest squad so there should be options in there.

Whilst it's one goal we are still in it. A point would be a huge psychological boost, although 2 from 9 isn't great.

Get in. Was saying to my wife (though she wasn't too bothered) that perhaps Norwich would rue their wastefulness. Whilst it's 1-0 there's always a chance.

Surprised Douglas hasn't been better given his promotion track record.

We got a point Vs Brentford when down to 10 and hot a winner v Millwall when we had no shape so we could still turn this round. That said it's looking like a very worrying trend...

Good one twisting my words. Clever that, amalgamating my different suggestions into one so it looks unreasonable. Alternatively it is sneaky and disingenuous and deliberately not trying to engage in debate. I said either get a different top quality addition instead of Ayala, or get a player who is a bit more versatile to increase their game chance. Also never gets injured is different ,(and impossible) to having a decent/good injury record. It's sad that you have to twist every single thing I say so much. The clue was in the use of the word or and different sentences which I think was rather clear. So you either a) have a limited grasp of the English language or b) deliberately meant to twist and manipulate for some reason. I'm fairly confident it's the latter. Not lucky at all. Had he gone for a decent fee i'm fairly confident we could have replaced him with someone as good with a decent transfer record. You've just contradicted a ton of posts you made in another thread a week or two (maybe a month back) where you said no one had an injury situation comparable with ours! (Not a ton were isolations - which is changing your narrative- and it seems a number of other teams have those issues too, especially in Scotland and currently the barcodes.) Also again your logic is faulty. If players were injury prone before it increases the likelihood further. For example if there are a spate of crimes in an area, it's more likely I will be burgled but that doesn't absolve me from leaving my doors unlocked. Am sure you will twist this analogy too even though whilst not exact it illustrates the point. You just can't bare any criticism of TM and its bringing out a rather obtuse and sneaky side to your posts.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse. It's the issue of Ayala's fitness in combination with every other defenders fitness that I have a problem with. We can afford one or maybe two injury risks/gambles but not three or four. The more we have the greater the risk is and the more likely it is to cause us problems. As it is we have a fair number and it is causing us problems. As i recall moat fans liked Ayala's pedegree but were worried about his fitness record. Not as easy as football manager. I would never have guessed. However off the top of my head for possible solutions i think I would have got rid of Williams as a fitness concern and had a less injury prone 3rd choice. Or signed someone else of Ayala's quality. Or if more cover was needed someone who can play full back who would be second choice to Nayambe or who could slot in in multiple defensive positions so has more possibilities of game time. We have a truck load of midfielders and I would have been tempted to trade one of their places for another defender. (Again what people said.after signing Downing.) Also let's differentiate between east and possible. I'm not saying it is easy but I am saying to have a less fragile defence definitely was possible. As for the injury crisis everyone has it when it suits your argument but when it's poor old Rovers we have it way worse then every other team. In your defence of TM you are contradicting yourself!

Think you have missed the point on purpose BDS. Will explain again. No one is blaming him for the Warton injury or signing Williams. That would be a bit silly wouldn't it? A question is being raised as to whether the manager should have addressed the fact that many of our defenders are injury prone. With 2 centre backs injury prone and our right back too, the manager should recognise that we are likely to be thin on the ground defensively. Loads of ways he could address this. Buy in more reliable defensive reinforcements or extra cover, sell one or two so the balance is better, not buy other defenders with fitness issues. Ultimately the buck stops with the manager for the squad he creates. He rightly gets the plaudits for the successes and criticisms for the weaknesses - including too many defenders being injury prone and unavailable. That's hardly an unreasonable criticism.

Well Gav it's nice to see you so dismissive of fellow Rovers fans. I get football is all about opinions and they will differ. I also understand some opinions are way off base with nothing to back them up, which would perhaps be what is fair to call clueless. it seems this is where you'd class anyone who expresses doubts about TM - as clueless. Problem is though, aside from being arrogant and patronising, your post might have a few issues with it, itself Firstly the best football comment. Have a few problems with this. For starters surely best football is subjective, it's opinion based. Personally for me, what I find the most exciting football is wingers getting to the byline and whipping in crosses for strikers. Perhaps a bygone age now, but it's what I grew up on and what I see as most exciting. You can disagree, which is fine as best football is subjective. Also if there is such a thing as best football, surely it is winning football? I think you have confused style and substance. After all if I worked for you and produced for you visually impressive reports but with a host of inaccuracies, I doubt you would be that pleased. Substance is more important than style, results more important than "nice" football, even if we can qualify what good football is. Secondly let's take the clueless majority not liking TM/wanting him out. That would suggest, to be clueless, that there were/are no flaws with TM. Both in league 1 to now there have been issues - some of which have been quite longstanding: overcomplicating things, bad runs, some poor transfers, players slow to be dropped, players out of position to name a few. Now whilst it can be debated whether TM has has done more good than bad, the inference of clueless is that fans have no idea about football. The inference is there is zero evidence that suggests TM might not be the right manager. However, as I've listed there are a number of reservations about him, suggesting fans actually have some understanding about what is going on! Continuing onto this season - no understanding if you can't see the progress. Let's ignore for a moment all the reservations from previous years which may make people sceptical of said progress. On this season alone the facts are we are not in the top 6 where we want to be. We seem to have bottled it midweek when that opportunity arose to get there. And we haven't beaten a team above us. Those facts seem to suggest that said progress is not as fullsome as you suggest. And if we do dip into previous seasons of bottling it, again the evidence for progress seems more limited. It seems fair based on the evidence to express doubts as to the extent of the progress. (FWIW my view is we have progressed somewhat but not nearly enough to get promoted.) Finally, speaking of clueless, opinions without evidence there's the crap budget comments. I'm struggling to see the evidence to back up this opinion. Compared with Coyle for example his budget looks.generous. the likes of Coventry and Rotherham would be scratching their heads at such comments As would Millwall and Preston who I believe finished about us last season. Our wage budget is reputedly average for this league. Many teams couldn't spend £12-15 million on strikers. Our net spend is positive, and he hasn't had to sell anyone he doesn't want to. The evidence of a crap budget just isn't there. Sure it isn't the amount that the premiership relegated clubs have, but when in the Prem we weren't the biggest spenders either but it didn't stop us from competing. It didn't act as an excuse for Ince's mismanagement say. Likewise some clubs with better budgets like Brentford have made that the case through smart transfer business - simply nothing that we couldn't have done ourselves. So this crap budget stuff, seems to have no evidence whatsoever. So aside from an arrogant comment it seems to me to miss a whole selection of evidence and facts on our situation. It comes across as somewhat ill informed. Of course there are a ton of positives with TM too, and I acknowledge that, but the fact there is good and bad both generates the debate and shows that fans aren't clueless on where they land on TM as their opinions are based on evidence.

It might also be seen as the managers fault for having so many injury prone defenders. It's not just the games they miss which is the problem but the ones getting up to speed as well.

So if you don't like TM or have reservations you are clueless? Nice measured response that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55245689 Article about Lennon and Celtic, but the few bits on TM are not flattering. In particular the slow build approach. As others have said, it's not taken Warnock that long at Boro to get them to a comparable place. He's not terrible, he really isn't, he's just a decent manager which is why we will remain midtable.

In other words we aren't where we want to be! 5 points means we need to win 2 and the top 6 screw up twice to get in there. Outside of being unrealistic I'm sick of relying on other teams arsing up for us to succeed. Agreed. But what if they don't come back as hoped or we get other injuries or some other teams gets top quality managers and go on killer runs? We are always hoping for the best but never planning for the worst.

Also call me pedantic but we somehow accept almost as being good enough. It drives me mad. We are near the playoffs. We're almost there. Swap it to another objective and you see it's a failure. I nearly scored a goal - I didn't score. I almost got the job - I don't have the job. I nearly missed getting hit by that bus - the bus hit me. Almost is not good enough. Apart from at Rovers where it's the height of success.

To me it has to be 4 points, perhaps 3 if I am easy going from Brentford, Bristol and Norwich. If you add the game prior to that my target would be 7. Agree with loads of the rest of your post, especially the reaction part and winning home games. Loved it under Hughes in particular and also Souness that even when the best came to Ewood you knew , heck they knew, they were in for a war. The result would be over our dead bodies. We can't go 4 games without a win, I would put it further and say 3 without a win is not viable for promotion.

Of course there is no reason for pessimism. Just because we cannot beat a team above us, and are bottling another chance of getting into the playoffs, where on earth is there any reason in that to be downbeat?