Ok Paul, in what context should we take the fans aren't happy because they remember winning the Premier League? I won't go over all the reasons why it is a lie again, but the statement clearly is both false and manipulative, so what context makes that acceptable? Some of it may well be factually correct but it is hugely distorted! For example he is right saying we have had had a ton of centre backs out, but the reason is he assembled crocks there. That's like someone complaining no one would interview me for an education job but ommiting they can't get or pass a DBA! It's half a story and ultimately is their fault. Yes I am telling you that those is no section of fans who are never happy because we aren't winning the Premier League. Also the some never happy is a straw man argument. By this logic should we not reduce criticism of Ince, Coyle etc. See above it helps when you don't just assemble crocks. Also when you have a ton of midfielders stockpiled but no defenders, again you might think the manager is somewhat culpable. Hang on the morality of what he says and the reasons why are both good questions but they are seperate ones. One doesn't prevent the other unless you are trying to gloss ove the wrongdoing. Disagree on the good job and the good guy comments too. We'll gloss over the good job element for now (a whole other debate) but good guys do not make these sort of lies up. Morality may be tricky but statements which are so blatantly untrue and manipulative clearly.arejt the remit of good guys. Also if anyone didn't know that statement clearly could sit alongside many of Keans. Not saying he is the same but the statement is Kean-esque. You are trying to defend the indefensible. I hope you are right though TM.isjt making it classy

So let's get this straight - 4 years later after innumerable (ok 8 😎 windows), a healthy amount spent and no forced departures we still have no idea what the best formation is for our team? Doesn't that say everything about TM's tenure and why he has to go? Edit no idea how the emoji got there or why it won't allow me to delete it...

The excuses are getting greater in frequency and size. Not sure one game counts as a spell but there we go... Much of the defensive issues are his own making, especially the no centre backs fiasco. Honestly having a manager spout a load of guff in survival mode is really making it hard not to dislike him as a man as well as a manger.

Don't disagree things are better - in fact I am not sure they could get worse for that matter - my issue is saying things are good or even decent/normal/in place. TM a million times better than Kean, no argument there. But I do disagree and think the evidence disagrees that he is an honest guy who knows right from wrong. Good guys don't make up comments like that. Waggot is better than the chancers before. Definitely but again this is not enough and doesn't mean he is competent. If anything the current regime is benefitting from having the lowest expectations and predecessors ever. It's a poor do when the standard is not as terrible as the last lot.

I did read it Gav. Thing is I disagree! Well not completely, it is better than the Kean years and the 5 managers fiasco but they still are a circus. Opperationally as our cancellation shows we are still being run badly, as does the managers from.an agency, managers appointing their bosses, long runs with poor points returns and no response. Factor in Waggot doing his best to squeeze money from the fans and I think it's hard to say we have the fans or a footballing ethos at the heart. It's better but still bad. It's certainly not praiseworthy. One area I did however think we may have upped our game.in was the lack of immorality shown in the Kean era. However, against whilst not as bad overall as then, these comments are just as bad as anything Kean came out with. I won't repeat my rant save to say it's an utter fabrication detached from reality which I find utterly dishonest and immoral. That's probably why o reacted so strongly. I thought this circus master had a bit more integrity. As it is, those comments really do confirm he doesn't have the morals that I thought/hoped. They totally contradict the statement he makes about being open and honest. So yeah, strong reaction but far from an overreaction. he says he knows right from wrong and is open and honest BUT he also says comments like this. The two are incongruous, with the latter making a mockery out of the former.

Funny that Gav because it seems very wrong to me to say some fans are comparing him to the Premiership winning team and so will never be happy. Now this is clearly and evidently not true. For starters you won't find those comparisons on here, a site that is both representative of a broad section of fans and quite critical of him. It's not a comment that has been made. Secondly its clearly not been a criteria for success in the past. Souness and Hughes were clearly not at the level of the premiership winning team and yet very popular. Therefore such a comparison can't be true. Thirdly on a similar note it's not a criticism leveled at any of the dollopers previously eg Ince or Coyle, so it would have had to have magically originsyed with him. Logically 20 years ish later seems an odd time to start. Fourthly as others have said a fair chunk of those fans who can remember 95 remember some more austere times prior to that too! Fifthly if that is what a fan expects - winning the league - that would suggest they are a bit of a glory hunter. I find it hard to believe many fans with said expectations would stick around for 25 years of not having their expectations met. In short it is utter bull. And whilst I get morality is a tricky and complex subject to tell such a blatant lie, a complete fabrication, a distortion of reality, and all for the motive of protecting himself. Well, that doesn't smack of football values, honesty and integrity whatsoever. In fact, quite the reverse

Look any manager who says we fans are entitled because we compare him and the team to the Premiership winning team and only that will make us happy has no integrity. End of story. It's an absolute blatant lie with no basis in reality. No one - Hughes or Souness, Kidd or Ince has ever been compared with those days. To do so is frankly disgusting, maligning the fan base, and really should be enough to remove the wool from people's eyes. It's a comment on the level of the odious one it is that sneaky and detached from reality. Well, TM it has changed my mind. I wanted you out as you weren't good enough as a manager before the interview. Now I want you out because you aren't fit as a person to manage this great club. You now fail on both character and competence. Just do one.

Sadly the excuses and banging on about the journey are his style Paul. That's the problem. That said I think you are right that he might be under pressure to do such a large amount of self preservation in one go.

I dunno WIR. Personally I think that's a smart move. I often want to put my hands over my eyes watching us of late...

Whereas it has been a few years since anyone held TM up as a positive example...

Tony has evidently been reading this board. Just to clarify for him I'm not unhappy with his performance as manager because you aren't winning the premiership. I'm unhappy because he can't assemble or organize a defence, can't get us above mid table and are regressing, have made some terrible blunders in the transfer market and because he plays players stupidly out of position - Buckley and Gally being two prime examples.

Thing is if fans are always criticising your team selections - that strongly suggests you are getting them wrong! You can fool some of the people all the time and all that. If your selections are constantly questioned there's probably a reason for it. Also speaking of contradictions - he says Venkys don't know much about football (ha! understatement of the year) but they do understand we are on a journey. Impressive how they can know nothing and take a long term view at the same time.

Just to double check - are we on a journey? Every one of his points is actually a backhanded criticism of himself or a lie! No defenders - his fault for assembling the squad. Having to change the attitude - his fault for not doing after 4.5 years! Owners being good eggs, and no pleasing fans - pure lies. Journey - absolute lies. Journeys have progress and we aren't. Journeys don't take as long as this without tangible improvements. Honestly if anyone didn't want him gone before this then they should now. Lies and excuses that only highlight his ineptness.

It doesn't help when you tank the Fiend character with regular losses. That hurts Alexa Fiend as well as Bray Fiend. Also having her already beat Asuka also takes away some of the mystery of can Asuka cope with this new threat. Even if we ignore the booking issues and rather like this storyline - boy it doesn't half leave a lot of dross on the rest of the roster storyline wise. Worryingly I think they are trying to build Lee! His quick win Vs Orton, putting him with Drew, I think they want him to be a star but they still manage to do it so, so badly. Yeah, they have regularly done it which is crazy as they need new stars, loads of the work has already been done in NXT and everyone can tell who the talented performers are. Honestly it shocks me how badly they manage the company with such a regular conveyor belt of talent. It should keep things fresh, exciting and with tons of storyline potential. Yeah it's not been handled well at all. You forgot to add putting them in a feud with another heel group too! Couldn't have been worse if they tried. That said the concept I think could work. Turn up, beat people up, disappear. Then when the "signed" wrestlers do finally get a match or two with Retribution have Retribution win those too. Not hard to build up a stable, have them.beat people up and win matches. Amazing that they don't do this Yeah absolute shambles. That said Goldberg isn't one for promos beyond growling and looking menacing. Agree. Have him total a ton of people with the spear and then it becomes a what if he hits the spear on Drew type situation. Everyone knows he shouldn't be able to hang with Drew but the what if remains. There are tons of other ways they could have built it up too. Drew becoming patronising/Goldberg taking offence when Drew helps him Vs Orton. Or a Rocky 6 sort of situation where people discuss is Drew/the claymore better than Goldberg/the spear in its prime. Or an accidental spear or claymore to the other in a match. Loads of ways this could be done, but again it's done badly. Yeah they really can't build stars, they really really struggle. I do wonder if it will cost them though as the old timers can't go on forever.

Not sure how there's so much debate about the guy! He is clearly very talented (ok that's imo) and clearly there are huge question marks as to whether he will fulfil that potential for a myriad of reasons (also an imo). Whilst some of those question marks are to do with him - such as his size and mental fortitude - there's also huge questions over how TM uses him. Personally I don't think the odd cameo and some right back appearances (this being beyond stupid imo) will accurately ascertain whether he fulfils that potential. He needs a regular run of games to assess that. Not sure he is quite ready for us, so logically this has to be a loan, to make a proper valued judgement. TM needs to get him one sharpish because the right back farce isn't helping anyone. I think he has too much potential to ignore, too many question marks to throw into our first team making a loan a no-brainer. Sooner we do that, the sooner this debate will be settled.

What makes it worse is that the rub up to the Rumble and WM is a) the time for your best storylines, with a fitting climax at WM and b) is made somewhat easier by the presence of these two events. Hard to disagree with any of your analysis on Raw. What makes it even more painful is Ricochet and Riddle were super over on NXT and were utter stars in the making. Ricochet can do stuff no one else can, whilst Riddle also had a unique character and look. Both destroyed on the main roster. As for Retribution - a good idea horrifically executed. Hurt Business likewise. The best breakups happen when a ton of history is thrown away (The Shield for example) whereas this is the most rushed storyline ever. Vince has done wonders for wrestling but he's firmly on the downward slope now. Also - last rant - Goldberg in a main event at the Rumble. Aside from him being terrible these days it's a bit of a kicker to need to rely on him in the main event scene. Smacks of desperation and cluelessness.

Hard to disagree but uniting the fan base, a familiarity with the club, just as much success as TM all suggests he would be worth investigating as an option. Most of all he has had success here and whilst he has struggled elsewhere perhaps this club is a sweet spot, so to speak, which gets the best out of him as a manager. Worry is though it's a bit different these days at Ewood.

Unless we get a few adverse results in the next fixturea in which case the postponement will have disrupted momentum and our plans. "It is what it is but the postponement didn't help our momentum."

Absolutely! Credit where it is due. This is the first time I can think of where TMs training has stopped the opposition from scoring. It's a novel approach but his most successful one to date.

Really? I mean it doesn't seem to have done Norwich too badly. Or Stoke or Boro. Or jumping up a league many other teams from Spurs to Leicester. 2020 wasn't too shabby for Liverpool. I'm not sure why all these restrictions etc make it hard to judge us and hard for us to perform yet other teams have coped with it. Well clearly you are bothered as I am losing track of the why won't you accept my opinion posts. And I'll even answer that question for you -AN OPINION IS NOT UNCHALLENGEABLE, NOR DOES IT AUTOMATICALLY HAVE MERIT. Let me give a few examples. Let's say I think Shearer was a crap player. Should that opinion stand? It's got zero evidence to back it up, quite the contrary, so why should it be accepted? Also it's a bit of a moral danger to just accept/allow any opinion. Let's say - and to stress I really don't think this is the case - I think that black players are all rubbish. Now we've not only got zero evidence we'd have also strayed into racism. Again should this be allowed to fall back on why don't you accept my opinion? (Again to be clear I do NOT think that is the case.) Should such an opinion be inviolate? People aren't accepting your opinion because they profoundly disagree and think it is contrary to the evidence. And whilst a message board is a place of oppinions it is also a place where the weaknesses of said arguments will be highlighted. Such as, your assertion 2020 is unfair to use, as for many clubs in the same circumstances it was a good year.

My take is: Season 1 huge ask, didn't achieve it but enough positives and change to keep on. Season 2 promoted and achieved what was needed. Not an excellent job given our budget some dicey transfers and first few months in League 1 but a good job nevertheless. Season 3 achieved target of mid table. On paper a good job. In practice the latter half of the season include that horrible winless run, with his basic errors and blowing the budget really take the shine off and alarm bells ringing. With high standards for these reasons he should have gone at the end of this season but I can see the argument that he deserved another chance. I thought the errors outweighed the pros albeit the finish was acceptable Season 4 lost the plot. No keepers at the end of the season (and arguably during it), no long term defensive solutions, more money blown, more bizarre decisions, no realistic/serious play off challenge. Combined with last season momentum has to swing towards getting rid. Season 5: Same issues from basic errors, total stagnation. Further away from playoffs than last year. Poor defensive recruitment. Has to go. Anywhere else would have been potted at the end of the last 2 seasons and during this one, of which only after the first season back in the championship would he have any sort of case to argue contrary to sacking Only at Rovers with no accountability does he ride out the last two seasons and half of this one. Incidentally like Souness I think once the errors start to come (second half of our first championship return season) then it's a downhill slope from there and it's hard to recover from. The trick is to stop the rot before it becomes rot. And whereas it may be debatable when that point was we have definitely past it. Got to get rid.

Yeah I think a fairer comparison with the two managers is that they have turned their clubs round in a fraction of the time which is an uncomfortable fact for TM. That said neither gig was easy although of the 3 TM arguably had it the hardest. Boro were strong candidates for relegation under the clueless Woodgate so I still think that was a heck of an achievement. TM on balance did inherit a slightly harder situation, but I don't think the situations are vastly dissimilar (squads decimated by cutbacks and an utterly clueless manager.) So I think it's probably a fair comparison albeit not an exact like for like as our situation and the points total required that season was harder. As comparisons go I think it's fairly reasonable and doesn't reflect well on TM. Similarly with Stoke it's not an exact replica of the situation as he had more time. However Stoke had been a rotten club with many managers experienced and young and up and coming failing there. they had had years of problems so again it wasn't an easy situation. This one is less comparable though as a transfer window and the number of games is significantly different. I guess the point is whilst not like for like, is that a) both achieved what was needed and above expectations last season (contrast with TMs plodding on) and b) in less than half the time have their clubs challenging for promotion. Both aspects to me show that they are miles better managers than TM.

None of that is irrelevant actually. And whilst I would agree TM had a tough gig trying to save us from relegation the uncomfortable fact is O'Neill and Warnock have turned their clubs round in a fraction of the time TM has. Also (and it seems by your own post you thought similarly) Boro were in a horrific mess when Warnock took over. I'm also a tad bemused how Warnock is a has been whilst TM is the man for us. In the past few years off the top of my head he has saved Boro from relegation and got them at the right end of the table, got promoted with Cardiff and saved Rotherham from relegation (one of his best achievements imo). Even before you factor in his other work his record is far superior to TMs.

Again, not trying to shoot you down but profoundly disagree! How are we guaranteed our money back/a justified fee with Bereton? I agree it's certainly possible given his age but it's far from certain. For starters look at how many other players his age haven't made it from similar positions. Look at his form since he has come back. Look at his performances for the first two years. Your basing the optimism on a small window of form. And fwiw I think that window of form whilst good, looked better than it was as it came after two years of utter ineptness. Contrast his performance levels with other forwards who have gone for £6-7 million in the championship, and you see he has a way to go before we are guaranteed our money back. Hang on a sec, I think there's a few issues here. Firstly we really shouldn't be spending money on young lads who take a few seasons to develop. Yes, they should have potential to improve, (perhaps this is what you meant) but to say they need to be able to contribute immediately. We can't afford to have players we have to wait 2 years plus to contribute. As for bringing leaders in, as I have said before, leaders can be younger or any age. One example under Hughes we had a whole team full of leaders, costing different levels of money to bring in, and at a range of ages. I don't see why we have to bring leaders in on loan or why players on a free can't necessarily have this quality. It sounds to me like made up excuses as to why TM doesn't have any leaders in the dressing room. This so called attractive football you talk about is football snobbery. You get a football style that suits your circumstances - players/budget etc. To say this attractive football is better and more successful is a complete myth because we aren't improving! We're in a worse position than last season when we were "hoofing it up to Graham." This nice football is not seeing us dominate the championship. If anything we have regressed. Do you genuinely think we are going to dominate the championship this season - given we haven't (or have only once) beaten a team above us and are firmly midtable? Again, there's zero evidence for such an assertion. Equally to the point that this attacking football is more successful is, to put it bluntly horse manure. You mention Wolves and Leeds, but look how many clubs Warnock has got promoted with a different style? Also the idea that straight back down happens if you play this "rubbish" football is news to every club Big Sam has kept up, Burnley, and a tad surprising to Norwich and their "nice" brand of football. It really is a myth that there's only one way to be successful playing football. It's simply not true. Also the idea you wouldn't want to go up playing rubbish football, that you would put style ahead of success - man we really disagree about the point of football. Surely winning is more important than fitting than playing eye catching football. And this is before we even consider the reality of what is possible with the resources that we have. I'm not even arguing the issue as to whether our football currently is attractive! The reason for the dodgy defence and injuries is in part due to the chap you are championing! He's the one who has assembled a defence of crocks. He's the one who can't organise a defence. He'#s the one who is on record saying we are building from attack rather than defense. The problems you highlight are because of said manager. Also what has been built? A mid-table team is hardly a huge revolution. And after three years being still a mid-table team, the achievement pales even more. And that's not even considering his half a season evaluation and League 1 chance to start the rebuild! As what has been built it's pretty minimal imo, and certainly no more than the mid-Bowyer tenure. As for Venkys hiring yes men, and boy do I hate Venkys, the idea that the only options are TM or an incompetent also isn't true. There are other options as well. Add in the fact that TM is hardly a rebel with regards to Venkys whatsoever, so I don't buy that the only way is TM or a stooge of Venkys. We don't look likely to go up so I can't see Armstrong signing. We don't look like we will improve - in fact the last three seasons show mid-table is where we will be, so how can you be so sure that things will improve encouraging the players to sign? On that even if said improvement - of which there is little evidence for - happens, what makes you think the selfish lot that are footballers won't look for a better deal? It's an optimism not born out of reality. Agree about the deadweights though! There seems to be some shifted goal posts here. I've never said that we have the dosh to attract top players. But to suggest we can only build a club on loans is a terrible idea. Also those aren't the only two options either - free transfers, buying shrewdly for small fees, as well as utilising the loan market and what you have are all part of creating a good team. Let's not rewrite history and say TM hasn't been able to buy players and can solely has to rely on loans. That's not the case evidenced by the transfers over the last few years. Also whilst they may not allow them to any random club, i think there's a fair few they would have leant them to. Hard to say it was TM or bust - either for or against - with regards to loans without knowing more. Yeah Coyle and Lambert weren't good. But that's not the only alternative. And even then it's not like TM is streets ahead of them even if he's better. It looks as though he has run his course, and three years into the championship later we're not vastly better off. I think his time is up. As for best interests - eh, his comments, appointing his mate as his boss, and the Boro charity fund all make me doubt that this is the case.

This is a spectacular list of excuses whilst glossing over mistakes. Priced out of moves and forced for loans? Bereton's fee alone would have paid for McGynn, Pickering and Kipre's fees. I get there are wages too, but then loan players have a big wedge of wages as well. I'm not quite sure up to this season that we are the paupers you suggest. Or taking another example Bauer was no way more expensive than Tosin. Not saying he's better but actually owning a solid championship player would have benefitted us more long term. As for Downing we brought him in because we needed experienced heads. Again this is damning with faint praise as if TM has assembled a squad with no leadership skills that he needs to bring a free agent in - well that says a lot about his squad building abilities and not in a positive way! Also players under 33 can be leaders too which again supports the idea that TM can't assemble a squad. It's not only available in a 33+ year old. Moving on ignoring that fact we blew 12 million - and if you think a couple of goals in an admittedly much improved Bereton warrants a fee of £6-7 million I fear you will be disappointed - you want a team that can sustain itself in the Prem. Given we don't even look likely of making playoffs under TM I'm not sure how this is a reason for keeping him. And whilst we would all prefer to stay there comfortably surely a yo-yo club is much better than being a mid championship outfit? And as for needing to impose ourselves playing football a certain way to stay in the league is sadly news to our 5 fingered neighbors. The inference from all that is we need to keep TM because he plays a certain way that will get and keep us up. History and the present shows that a) such a stylistic need is not true (Warnock with promotion, Big Sam keeping teams up) and that b) TM couldn't get us anywhere near promotion much less keep us there. It's a poor argument. Your optimism on the team is also a tad ambitious. Suggesting players will stay if we get near promotion? Everyone knows how the majority of footballers are massively disloyal. That's wishful thinking which goes against what's been seen over and over at our club and many others. To think those players will do well and still be here in a year or two just doesn't correlate with every championship team that we have seen. Another damning with faint praise is the can't rely on Johnson. That's been vintage TM for the last 2 years! As for the top 8 finish I feel that's a tad arbitrary as a cut off point. Is 9th and 2 points off worse than 8th and 10 points off? Also there's a heck of a difference between making a late surge up the table when it doesn't matter and genuinely be in the running for playoffs. Again you state keeping TM will help us attract players? What evidence is there for this? You even say he has wasted money and hasn't been able to afford targets (although I disagree with this point.) So by your own arguments it's hardly like he is a master recruiter. Not trying to have a go. Apologies if it comes across this way. I just don't see any evidence backing up your optimism.