Tell you what without the Cat A academy and the players it produces we would be really stuffed. Smallwood would still be here, Caddis at right back. Steel would have stayed in goal. We'd have have to have loaned another Premier League U18 centre half. TM has been bailed out by the academy lads repeatedly. Without that we would well and truly be stuffed.

Yeah Souness clearly lost the plot but had a promotion a League cup and a top 6 finish to fall back on. That's a hell of a lot of equity. He corrected his Grabbi mistake with Cole and brought in a ton of gems. He was also unlucky with injuries and not because he had assembled a team of crocks. TM in contrast has one easier to achieve promotion and several years of meh yet seemingly has much more equity with some fans then I can recall Souness having. Which is crazy when you think about it.

Good plan. After all what has the academy brought us in terms of first team players recently. Not like our best centre back and central midfielder are both academy graduates. Or the sort of first choice right back. Or prior to that the keeper as well. Not like there's any players on the fringes of the squad either with potential. Clearly in need of a change as evidently players aren't making the first team squad.

Yes that's another good shout. Surprising isn't it how it's the non spectacular signings in both cases that make or break the team. One overlooked area (cm for Bowyer defence for TM) and it undoes all the good work elsewhere.

I've said it a few times but the biggest mistake was not signing Bauer. Tosin might be better but Rovers would have been better off having Bauer for multiple seasons than Tosin for one. Also it's very unlikely Warton and Bauer playing in the same team would get long term injuries, far less so than Ayala and Williams say. Imo we are still suffering from that mistake but there are still a number of things TM could have done differently. The most obvious is not play 3 at the back including 2 youngsters as that doubles the risk. Very foolish move imo. Another thing he could have done is try loaning to buy someone from the championship / lower leagues with a bit of experience at centre half. With Williams possibly off in the summer it might have been an opportunity to have a trial/preview of his replacement. That's an admittedly ideal scenario but even a punt on a lower league centre back is that really that much riskier than a young centre half with less than 20 games under his belt, none at championship level. And if it works and we brought one in or loan with option to buy there is a lot more chance of us having a longer term benefit to us than a 6 month loan. I guess we could still get one of these guys back on loan next year (if we want them) so not huge benefit but I do wonder if two youth was not spreading the risk in a great way. Also one of TMs better transfers for me was Downing the CB. A different level admittedly but filled in excellently. Maybe that's influencing my view of what could be done. On reflection our general defensive policy hasn't been great - crocks and loans and was hard to rectify ln January. It's the culmination of years of mismanaging the defence. Had we played it a bit smarter at any point or got in more defensive cover of adequate quality and consistency earlier we wouldn't be in this pickle or struggling as much with so many injuries.

Terrible, terrible decision. Reckon they won't make playoffs now. Appalling manager who did a lot of damage to Boro. Can't see what they were thinking at all.

I'm increasingly convinced this is and was the case. Maybe not this specific scheme but the idea of all coming in with ckueless and absent owners and making some money out of it.

@TimmyJimmy outside of Warton I don't think there is much luck involved at all! Lenihen, Williams and Ayala are all injury prone so it's not too surprising that some of them are missing large chunks of the season. Perhaps a tad unfortunate that it is happening all at once, but having three injury prone centre backs was pretty suicidal even before you factor in the intensity of the season due to Covid. Similarly with midfield the likes of Evans and Holtby being injured is far from surprising. Johnson looks gassed half the time he plays too and is getting on a bit in football terms. Again, it's not that surprising that our injury prone players have been injured. Factor in that every team gets a few injuries in the normal course of a season and the situation looks really bad. But in reality a lot of it is par for the course on top of a shed load of crocks making the situation much worse than it should be.

Ita a sad state of affairs when we are looking down instead of up and I can certainly see the similarities to 99 - tons of injuries, a constantly changed team and too good to go down/complacency. One other thing making relegation more likely is that we know TM won't be sacked. He and his mates have their pockets to line from.the training ground so there won't be any sacking and subsequrnt reaction that you usually get even if you get a duffer as the new manager. That said I still think we will stay up. It's still a three game swing needed despite us losing 4 on the bounce. We have played badly a ton of times and got points. Heck, even the last two dire performances have only been lost be a single goal (even though it should have been more.) So scraping points is something I think we will continue to do even if playing badly. Given the inconsistency in this league and anyone beating anyone, that just increases the odds of us getting the occasional win. We have a few players who are capable of a bit of magic digging us out of a hole too. Factor in Wycombe have effectively meant that it's two relegation places up for grabs and a lot of dross at the bottom end of the table and we should be fine. Would I bet on a top half finish - probably not. But relegated I don't see that happening this year. Next year without Armstrong could well be a different story though.

You know what tells me TM isn't going anytime soon. The application and the same screw over team as Coventry. Results wise he has been safe as houses on many dismal runs but with the trough looking particularly full at the moment no way will TM and his lot be getting their snouts out anytime soon. And HSH will be telling the owners that there's no need for change if they aren't already complicit in it.

Hang on Tom, it sounds like you are implying TM changes the goal posts regularly. Mr Integrity would never do that... Anyway it's the unforseen injuries, the age of the loanees that were forced upon him, the fans fault for picking the scapegoat in the starting 11 that cost us today. Not the manager. Now stop questioning him. He and his cronies have a business deal to finalise. If only football stopped getting in the way and fans and media stopped asking questions. Whoever heard of a manager being accountable?

He's staying because there is a housing development deal to finalise for him and his mates.

I've more chance of predicting the lottery numbers than TMs lineups. Nayambe goes from first choice RB to not good enough for the squad to first choice RB again. Makes sense. Douglas dropped which is a smart move as he was picking up a bit and we can't have that. Two youth at centre back with less than a dozen championship games between them. What could go wrong? Gets a bit better after that although Elliott in midfield isn't ideal. Also somewhat strange that Bereton warrants a mere handful of minutes in midweek but a start here. Gally of course keeps his place after his excellent performances at right wing/striker/right back. So yeah team makes no sense. Will see if it surprised Forest as much as us.

Agree what wasn't said was just as worrying as what was said. We perhaps should have been worried the moment the Coventry lot came in. Clever move for HSH to put them in after Coyle.

Given the club have shouted from the rooftops anything that could be construed as good - drones and youth who can't really break into the first team signing contracts spring to mind - the fact they haven't said anything tells us that this is very clearly bad. It's also logically implausible. Facilities are always praised by new players, it's been good enough for many premiership managers and a raft of poor championship ones. An ounce of scrutiny can see that there are lies being told that the facilities need renovating. It does however answer some key questions. Why TM, Venus and Swag are still here. Why we trained on the pitch in winter. Perhaps even where the owners might make some money back. It's more subtle than Anderson and SEM but I fear the current set up is just as nafarious and corrupt. Operation let's halve the fanbase again is in full swing. Not sure I can go through another pillaging of the club.

Agree. Has to make me wonder if it is worth fighting for when a chunk of our fans are happy to see them abuse this great club however they like.

Please help me as I have lost or made up a season. Apparently we only moved away from the Dack / Graham combo this season but I distinctly remember last season when Graham hardly played and Dack was injured for half of it. Did I just make that up or imagine it? He's losing the plot. It's a poor do to reset the clock 4 years in, and an even poorer do to lie about when the reset was. His digs at the fans, his ludicrous comparison with Brentford (who don't have the habit of spunking money on a non scoring striker), his statistics about entries into the box - it's Kean-esque. Totally lost the plot and fast losing integrity. Every day it gets worse and worse what he says.

Happens all the time, the goal posts move at a pretty rapid pace. I'm not sure it's far from trolling... Whilst it is inappropriate in the context of the debate (as you say the discussion was about attractiveness of Rovers) the unfortunate reality is that odds on the next incumbent will be HSH. But that blow is softened somewhat by the fact that none of the others on their books would play a £5 million striker at full back or have a pathological hatred of our own right back. So even in such a limited pool of candidates we are likely to get an upgrade.

They haven't ever altered their ways to good though have they? We have had various degrees of crap from downright abusive through to negligent and indifferent. Different styles of bad but no good ownership. We have had overtly corrupt, disinterested, they have given this manager far too much time. They still get their managers from a bargain basement agency and have the managers mate as CEO. Admittedly that's a change from previous but still pretty poor.

Can't argue with this. Didn't mind so much with Tosin or Elliott - if they are good enough then both parties benefit. Sure they may not be the preferred long term options (I keep saying Bauer would have been more beneficial than Tosin long term) but if they improve us and provide the missing pieces then that's still ok as long as not overly reliant on them. One issue is our defence is always too reliant on loans, but that's another debate. The likes of Walton and the two defenders however have been a one way benefit and not in Rovers favour. We get all their inexperience and mistakes and zero benefit. What's frustrating is so many of our loans have been poor. Thinking back Palmer and Harper were also crap. We don't have a great return from these at all.

Agree think it has passed us by. Nayambe and Rothwell may be here next year due to options (although TM clearly wants the former gone) and Armstrong will certainly be gone too. That leaves us with a pretty thin squad indeed and a lot of work that needs doing. The positive is it doesn't contain a lot of dross so plenty of room for a manager to bring in players that suit the style of play and system we want to have. However if TM is here or gives contracts to Williams, Evans and the like it will be rather clogged and a struggle to move forward.

Thought about this and I think we are safe this season for a two key reasons. 1 As we have proved this season we are still capable of playing badly and getting the odd result. Sure it's down to the inconsistency and dross in the league, as well as some individual brilliance from a few of our players but we will still pick up some points. 2 We are (I think) about 10 points off relegation. This requires a three game swing where we get nothing and those in the relegation zone get wins. I'm sure we are capable of 3 losses but am equally sure that the teams in the relegation zone won't win 3 on the bounce before we pick up some points. Not a ringing endorsement of the team or manager and take away Armstrong's goals and you would be super worried. But until next season at least we are safe.

Agree. Even 5 or so goals in a season but making 5-10 more for the team would be a massive difference. The problem with Gally isn't just the lack of goals it's his overall lack of contribution to the team/the way we play. Contrast this with Bereton in his very brief run of form. His style suited the team, helped us keep the ball and caused the opposition problems. Gally doesn't even add this. You can be limited and enhance a team - Kuqi and Roberts for example. Gally doesn't add anything, although in fairness out wide and right back he was always going to be up against it in this regard.

Didn't post after last night in this thread as so angry. Thought it couldn't get worse than Preston but I was wrong. So many issues; Firstly the Nayambe situation. If he isn't deemed good enough for the first 18 when people are fit, why has he been at right back for much of the season and why hasn't a replacement been brought? Additionally if our current right back/wing back is playing his first game in months due to injury why was there no backup on the bench. If it is because of a poor performance how on earth did the Everton lad keep his place? Any application of logic (not least the fact Nayambe is hands down our best RB) shows there is no appropriate and professional reason for his omission. This brings me onto the formation. TM talks about identity and consistency and then choses a formation we have hardly ever played and is reliant on two substandard loans to play it. How does that help us? Where's the build or logic in that? Also saying we need to change our formation to counter Barnsley, with all due respect to them, if that's the case we need to pack up and go home! We allegedly model ourselves on Liverpool (presumably their 2021 form and lack of defenders) and it would be akin to them changing their system for an away game at Palace. Good teams don't change their system for mediocre opponents. And certainly not to an unfamiliar system. The two young defenders - meh. Experience is so critical at CB and both are showing their lack of it. Surely for their wages we could have picked up a seasoned Championship pro who knew what he was doing. Tosin mark 2 they ain't. Ironically our best loan is the one who doesn't start! He gets a ton of assists and managed another despite not starting. Evidently contributing is something to be frowned upon. It's not rocket science how to use Elliott. Put him on the wing and watch him get assists. Speaking of contributing without Armstrong's goals we are stuffed. Who else is going to get them? For a good squad on paper we aren't half lacking threats. When he goes - and he will - then we may be looking down not up unless someone gets on their shooting boots. It also helps if you can score in the first half. Honestly tuning in at half time would be a solid move and it's highly worrying that we are getting so few goals and none in the first half. With our fitness issues this seems a recipe for trouble. Then there is Evans. If TM doesn't know he is not the answer 4 years into his reign then he has learned nothing. With Davenport and Rothwell also on the bench, such a move becomes even more bizarre. There is no rational or justification for bringing him on. To summarise I cannot think of so many stupid decisions made in one match for a long, long time. TM has clearly lost the plot and really needs to go. And thats before I even address his scandalous comments.

Absolutely. Another utter and complete lie to make himself look less incompetent. Yes he is less corrupt then Kean but there is very little integrity there. Many of his quotes could pass for Kean's and that speaks volumes. Horrible person. Horrible manager. Get rid