I think if any club knows that what is said and what is done are two different things then it is us. So many examples to chose from during the last 10 years. And that alone highlights a key point - saying something does not make it true. I have used the example of saying I will be a Prem footballer and am totally committed to that. I may even be totally committed to it, but that doesn't make it true or more likely. Before we get into the issue of thinking you can't trust anything anyone says, one huge qualifying factor is looking at the surrounding evidence of what is said. Is the person trustworthy? Does the evidence support what is being said? Is what they are saying plausible? They are the key tests - plausibility and character of those speaking. Looking first at the plausibility. There is a Cat 1 criteria list which gives a good indication of what is needed. We're basically trying to meet these with half the space. Is that likely, is that plausible, given the criteria? I struggle to see how. Now this doesn't mean it isn't possible but it is a concern. What makes it more concerning is the club have at no point suggested how it will be possible. If it were, and given on the face of it it seems unlikely, you would have thought that they would have reassured us about how it were possible. As it is all we have had are bold statements of commitment without any supporting evidence as to why. This massively dents its plausibility. No evidence = little plausibility. Let's move onto the character aspect. Sadly this is somewhat lacking too. From the past history of all those involved - neglect by Venkys and the trio's antics at Coventry - there doesn't seem to be much trustworthiness there. And to make matters worse the nature of how the plans were released also suggests that they were trying to sneak it through. All in all looking at the characters involved does not inspire any level of trust. So until one of these criteria starts to be met I don't think we can or should have any faith in this scheme. In fact if it were your own personal land or house at stake i'm certain very few people would trust in similarly dubious circumstances. Honestly the evidence all stacks up and not in a good way. I do wonder how it can be ignored for a few bold statements with nothing backing them up.

Fixed it for you. All three in one game is even more incredulous.

Hasn't he done well in a couple of roles? If so another worth a punt on to replace TM?

I'm afraid it is. There are £12 million reasons why we need to, and the treatment table and a look to next season only adds weight to the argument it should be tried. And we are pretty safe so it's certainly worth a run for a number of games. It's a 4 game running swing which I cant see happening (on the other teams part not ours, we can go that long without wins.) Like you say though - wouldn't want to try it when it actually mattered, it's far too risky.

What has this got to do with the debate? It's nothing to do with how good a striker Rhodes is whether he can play other positions. Also for all Bereton's versatility Rhodes got more goals in one season for us than I suspect Bereton will for us in 4 or 5. Bad comparison. You are utterly wrong on this. Both statistics and evidence of watching them play show Rhodes is much the better finisher. Admittedly Rhodes doesn't have anything else in his game but this comment is plain daft.

Exactly what I was trying to get at but put far more succinctly. I've lost track of formations this year but on top of a 4-2-3-1 we have played two variants of 4-3-3, including one with a false 9, a 5-3-2 and a 4-2-2-2. Elliott for example has played wide right in the midfield 3 and front 3 of a 4-3-3, central midfield (I think) and a false 9. No wonder we have no consistency when formations and where players play in them shift around so much! Limited players can thrive in a good formation and plan whereas we hinder even the most talented players in the squad by chopping and changing anything. Judging in the midst of all our changes is very hard to do.

Am I reading it right? It was asked how can we retain cat 1 in reduced space - Waggot says he believes it's possible. That's not a reassuring answer! Heck, it's not an answer. He believes it possible - where is his evidence? That was what was being asked! Not surprising he doesn't give any evidence when all evidence points against it. I mean I could say I believe I could be a premiership footballer, but given my fitness levels and the ball control of a drunken elephant people might be sceptical and ask what evidence I have for such an assertion. Don't think anyone would be convinced by me saying I believe it is possible. They would want concrete evidence that was the case.

He must have a liking for batnuts clubs then. Not much of a step up then given they are likely to be in the same league next season.

He'll get the win v Wycombe which will erase the previous poor form. Amazing how one win does that around these parts. Shame it doesn't do the same for the league table.

In fairness to both Rothwell and JRC it cannot help that the formation and eleven selected changes more frequently then the British weather! I suspect Rothwell does flatter to decide but it's not as easy to tell when we has played a variety of positions with a heck of a lot of different players. I do wonder whether the right manager would pick a formation and find a role for Rothwell where he is an asset. That's what good managers do, and the lad does have talent if no consistency as yet. I'd feel a lot more confident in letting him go if we had someone with a plan in charge. JRC I think has a ton of potential. His versatility sometimes works against him as it stops him nailing down a spot, although TMs constant tinkering doesn't help either. Definitely one I would keep as huge potential imo. That neither are clamouring to sign, as others have said, shows what a trainwreck we are.

Brum are going down. One of the worst teams in the league and poor ownership to boot. All the other teams around them can point to some encouraging signs but struggle to see any reason why Brum will stay up save Rotherham burn out with all the games they need to catch up on. Even then for the first one or two they may have an advantage over other teams and get clear.

See you keep going on about unfounded speculation but it's hardly unfounded is it? It's undeniable facts about the trios history, Venkys history with Rovers and how the club has gone about it. It's on record Waggots statement as having contradictions. Thats hardly unfounded. Then there's the question marks raised with only the tiniest bit of analysis and evaluation. How do you fit 2 sites into 1? There is a list of all requirements for a Cat A academy - how does the new site incorporate all this? This isn't hypothetical what it's but obvious, basic questions about the practicality of the proposal. I mean if I said I was going to be a footballer it wouldn't be unfounded speculation but common sense to ask whether I am actually any good! Speculation is not the same as asking rational, reasonable questions. Sadly this proposal falls down on the latter.

One of the key points needing highlighting is it wouldn't be as damaging for the team (still gutted for the player and devastating for them though) if there was adequate cover. That just compounds the loss for the team. As it is Dack does t have any like for like or similar replacement, in style or quality. And as for Travis he'll have to fight his replacements for space on the treatment table...

Yeah was thinking that too. Well hadn't factored in Elliott but no Dack or Armstrong under TM is terrifying.

Am wrestling with the whole unlucky thing and my conclusion is that we are unlucky but this ill fortune is compounded and more severe for us because of TMs mismanagement. Dack's injury is both gutting and yet not totally surprising. It is unfortunate but had we not been so desperate to get him in the team and in such poor form it was hard to take him of, the chances of this would have been lower. Heck if Gally or Bereton were a bit more of an astute purchase the pressure for Dack's return also would have been lessened. I get there's a lot of what ifs and uncertainty in there, but wherever I look across the team bad luck is compounded by underperforming or crocked players. Warton massively unlucky but when you have the other centre backs you have - you are setting yourself up to fail, there's no safety net for an unfortunate injury. Ditto Travis both in terms of quality and injury prone nature of replacements. And it's the same with the penalties. There's no safety net. Outside of the bad penalty decisions how much did we create? We often don't get going in the first half. Our unluckiness is compounded by our inability. I think injuries may have cost us playoffs this year by a couple of places and points; it's a tough league. It doesn't cost us a death spiral, a bottom half finish and being miles off the playoffs. That's on us. Our misfortune has weakened us but so, so much is self inflicted. On Dack. Gutting. No other words for it really other than to say hope he gets better quickly.

Put it this way, the academy has helped TM out massively. Three of our defenders, our defensive midfield linchpin, JRC and Buckley and prior to that a keeper to replace Steele. Getting rid of a model that has given us this level of success seems a tad dangerous to me even if replaced with something good, which I am far from convinced by.

I think I read Brentford had lost 4 of their last 6 or 7. Either way they have not been in great form of late, and a good time to play them really. And unlucky as we were with the penalities 1 win in 10 is down to more than luck. Time for TM to go. Actually it was time ages ago but still hoping that the unlikely will happen.

Really? What makes it seem so above board? Perhaps it's the trio being involved in a similar scheme at Coventry? Maybe it's the fact that the club didn't mention anything until fans raised it? Perhaps it's the contradictory statements in what Waggot has said? Maybe it's the fact nothing untoward like this has happened under Venkys? Perhaps the level of detail in their plans for the new training place that reassures you? Look, am sure you are a very loyal Rovers fan and a good guy but objectively speaking I struggle to see how you can't be worried. We have form for being mismanaged by Venkys, the Coventry trio have form over this, there are lots of inconsistencies and ommisions from even a cursory glance at the proposals and I don't think anyone can say the manner in which it has been done breeds confidence. Take away your love of the club and put this into any other business situation and see if you would be happy with it. Genuine question - where's the evidence it is legitimate?

Agree. Journalism isn't what it was or should be. It annoys me when so many of.his statements are utterly at odds with reality, it seems harder to report it as is then question. 32 games into journey - I mean who didn't think that deserved a question. Like 'managers don't often get that time' or what happened to the last 2 years?' or 'how come Boro and Barnsley and Reading aren't needing 9 year plans?' I get there is having a positive slant but it seems now that extends to literally changing what reality is.

Yeah, one might have thought Venkys previous negligence (or being taken advantage of if anyone is daft enough to believe that line) and the fact the three Stooges were involved with this at Coventry might give people pause for thought. Add in the contrary statements, trying to sneak it through etc and I struggle to see how you can't be worried. I mean if you saw someone in your garden eying up the back door with his crowbar, and recognised him from the news as being wanted in connection with other burglaries in the area I'm not sure you would accept his protestations of doing some renovation work! And yet in some equally dubious circumstances some fans are all over it. Madness!

Where to start with this? Oh I know, as usual, it's a lie. I'd like to know when Brentford were able to have a positive net spend of £12-15 million over a few years. Or indeed how long ago it was since they started spending that. On a seperate note, engaging with the comment - and it's just a school of thought - but I don't think spunking money on Bereton, Gally and Ayala would really have helped us progress in our transfer ambitions. But of course that can't be TMs fault either. And this Brentford assessing and analysing and getting it right with players - remind me who their goalkeeper is? Every excuse the clown makes is an unintended indictment of his own inadequacy. Totally agree. Immoral and incompetent - sooner he and his mates go the better

Sorry @Revidge Blue you are right. I meant training ground and will edit accordingly. Either way it's a very worrying situation and similarity.

A few things that aren't speculation or hypothetical: 1) The club didn't announce this, the plans were outed by fans. 2) There are contradictions in Waggots statement (for example he both says it's to generate money AND that it will take all money to do the revamp). 3) Venkys have been taken in before. 4) The three people in charge are the three who were there when Coventry sold their training ground. 5) Venkys haven't taken good care of Ewood. 6) Training facilities can be upgraded outside of FFP. Now thats before any speculation or any analysis is applied to the situation. And just from that surface level summary of the situation I think even a neutral observer of those facts would be worried and probably think there's likely something untoward in this.

Thing is most of those injuries aren't a surprise. Lenihen, Williams and Ayala all known for being crocks. As are Holtby and Evans in midfield and to a lesser extent Johnson. None of the above are renowned for their constant availability. Of them 3 were signed by TM and the other 3 have all been at the club for the entity of TMs tenure. He's either signed them or had ample time to ship them out. So it's really a problem utterly of his own making giving us that sort of fitness handicap even before we start.

Good win that keeps the TM glacial journey rolling on. There's a load of positives. Dolan, Gally not being utterly useless when utilised properly and most importantly enough the points that should put all relegation talk to bed. 11 points at this stage of the season is a huge ask for a team to overcome so think we have guaranteed our safety. The negative is it wipes the slate clean and the tombola and tinkering suggest whilst the odd result may go our way we are going nowhere under TM. But I think we all knew that anyway and relegation would have screwed us over even more, so a positive day in a poor season.