[Archived] Blackburn Rovers Accounts 2008

[mattyboy6000]

I agree prof- this bubble is not far from bursting.

[thenodrog]

I think I am fed up with the Premiership altogether. If we go down I hope we return to the two fast wingers/attacking full backs philosophy which made Rovers one of the most exciting teams to watch in the old 2nd division. I miss that. I don't want to get relegated but I won't miss the premiership.

That was really only when Jim Smith was in charge.

[philipl]

No incorrect!

The Trust maintained the inflow of money into the Rovers at a slightly higher average rate in the six years following Jack's death than the average rate that Jack had paid in from his first purchase of a controlling interest.

The analysis of other clubs is also wrong.

Man U and Liverpool have American owners and debts that need to be recycled without knowing at the moment exactly how those debts will be renewed. Both clubs are being dramatically held back by these wholly ownership structures. Man U are now headed towards the £300m mark in interest charges since the Glazers took over. Liverpool have no new stadium and the story behind the Keane sale is they had to for cash flow reasons.

Arsenal and Spurs are both highly profitable well-run clubs hampered by a long-running boardroom fight for control (Arsenal) and a seeming perpetual inability to turn money into footballers (Spurs).

BOTH Arsenal and Spurs are doing what everyone is urging the Rovers to do- keeping a very tight reign on footballers wages and passing up the opportunities to acquire when wage demands are outside their structures.

Chelsea- Abramovich has just followed the Walker Trust model and converted 50% of his £710m interest free debt into ordinary shares. The Walker Trust converted £105m of debt into shares at Rovers by the way.

Everton- are scrimping along on 40,000 gates. The 100% increment in gate revenue means they can throw off roughly £20m a year for new purchases except for the problem of now having a pretty onerous and dangerous level of bank borrowings which Rovers don't have.

West Ham and Pompey are the real villains in all this in that their new owners are very substantially to blame for the latest upwards twist in the players' wage spiral now aided and abetted by City's succession of owners. Both clubs are in deep trouble although it is amazing that West Ham have managed to bring in a net £50m+ in transfer sales this season and still are in the top half of the League.

[leftfooter]

I'm just wondering how desperate we'd feel if we did get relegated. I think the Premiership has become stagnant with only one club - MU - and possibly Villa looking likely to be financially viable. The rest are all having money or squad problems. Most squads are bought in and aging - how many 30 somethings are there collecting huge salaries?

Fully empathise with that.

Just to stretch your point Prof regarding the Premier league; with an economic depression looming and an increasingly ageing and middle-class fanbase, how much longer can a majority of 50 something fans continue shelling out huge amounts from their salaries to fund it all?

[thenodrog]

Fully empathise with that.

Just to stretch your point Prof regarding the Premier league; with an economic depression looming and an increasingly ageing and middle-class fanbase, how much longer can a majority of 50 something fans continue shelling out huge amounts from their salaries to fund it all?

No doubt Sky are doing the market research asv we speak.

[ABBEY]

I would like to see the numbers, give me the last ten years of PL football.

Those who have spent bugger all may have one or two good seasons but will then yo yo back and forth. Success can only be measured by top 6 finishes, that is League, Cups and European Competition.

But theres a fair chunk on here who dont unbelievbly want us to win a cup and would rather us lose against cov tommorow !! so they dont define success as a cup win.

[Napoleon]

Scouring the globe for talent does seem to be a way forward, but I guess we already do this to an extent. It's converting the raw talent into first team standard that we have difficulty with. Even the famous Ajax academy of the 1990s had these problems, the guy running it whose name escapes me said that for every 10 players brought in from Africa, 7 wouldn't make the grade at all, 2 would develop to be good enough to play in a marginal European league and if you were lucky 1 could make the 1st team at Ajax.

For me the main reasons for our financial problems are:

1. Competing teams in the Premier League almost all have larger resources

2. Blackburn is the smallest town in the Premiership

3. We have too much local competition for football fans - especially "cherry pickers" - at all levels from the Premiership down

4. We have too much local competition for young players

5. Success in the mid 90s means that even a mid table Premiership finish is seen as a failure

This results in:

1. Low crowds (comparative to rest of Premier League)

2. Lower media interest

3. Lower advertising and merchandise income

4. Less chance of being taken over by an investor (especially in current financial climate)

Financially we are being held up by Premier league payments, if this goes we are done for due to being a bad target for investors as we are overperforming rather showing a potential to improve on and off the park. Unless one of us earns Walker-esque money and puts it into the club, not expecting a return, we are in trouble.

My best hope for Rovers future is that the mega money football culture collapses in on itself, leaving more sensibly run clubs in a relatively better position.

[Eddie]

I would like to see the numbers, give me the last ten years of PL football.

Those who have spent bugger all may have one or two good seasons but will then yo yo back and forth. Success can only be measured by top 6 finishes, that is League, Cups and European Competition.

No team has yet to sustain that over 5/6 seasons, bu several have done it for 2/3/4, which is a sign that it can be done. Yes, it requires that the team have excellent management, but I don't really think that, that is too much to ask. It also requires that in order to sustain that position you have to look to aggressively maintain the edge that you have over your rivals, something that no team has done. Let's face it, we finished 6th one season and then made very little effort to improve.

[mattyboy6000]

No incorrect!

The Trust maintained the inflow of money into the Rovers at a slightly higher average rate in the six years following Jack's death than the average rate that Jack had paid in from his first purchase of a controlling interest.

Phil, are you discussing £s or %s. I'd be very suprised if you could demonstrate that the amount invested by jack was exceeded by the trust. in fact i'd go as far as to suggest such an idea is ludicrous. but prove me wrong, if you can.

[rowz]

No doubt Sky are doing the market research asv we speak.

Sky have already done the deal - £1.78 billion for the 3 seasons 10-13 up 5% on the last deal , beggars belief - think they must be employing some redundant bankers to negotiate on their behalf - it seems that as soon as football becomes involved any business sense of value or sustainability goes through the window.

[leftfooter]

Sky have already done the deal - £1.78 billion for the 3 seasons 10-13 up 5% on the last deal , beggars belief - think they must be employing some redundant bankers to negotiate on their behalf - it seems that as soon as football becomes involved any business sense of value or sustainability goes through the window.

Whilst the TV money is all but guaranteed for the next few seasons (and acknowleging that is the major difference), some clubs might struggle to continue charging the inflated prices for the walk-on fans.

Newcastle this season have regularly been playing to non-sell out crowds - quite an unbelievable prospect just a couple of season's ago. Similarly if Arsenal start to slide, and the manager goes, it would be interesting to see how many of the nouveau city professional type fans that they attracted under Wenger would continue to turn up. After all Arsenal were regularly pulling in gates of just over 20,000 in the eighties. Had Aston Villa not bucked the trend (and all power to them for it), rows of blue seats would be a regular feature at Villa Park, just as they were nobbut a few seasons back.

Faced with the prospect of beaming Prem League matches around the world against a back drop of empty seats and an ageing gentrified audience (I use that word purposefully), the lustre of the EPL package might then start to dull.

I could well be wrong!

[OscarRaven]

Faced with the prospect of beaming Prem League matches around the world against a back drop of empty seats and an ageing gentrified audience (I use that word purposefully), the lustre of the EPL package might then start to dull.

I do hope so

[JC4LAB]

Do accounts really mean anything at the end of the day? All these teams showing massive losses still seem to carry on regardless...The reason is theres so much off Balance sheet stuff that matters more..

[BrianPotter]

Phil, are you discussing £s or %s. I'd be very suprised if you could demonstrate that the amount invested by jack was exceeded by the trust. in fact i'd go as far as to suggest such an idea is ludicrous. but prove me wrong, if you can.

One thing to consider that has been mentioned before, when Rovers were relegated to the champ for those two seasons, and indeed the couple of seasons after we came back up the club made huge losses year on year. This was after Jacks death and there is no doubt about it that without the Trusts financial support in keeping rovers solvent (ie being able to pay bills as they fall due) Rovers would have gone into administration during this period. It was also the Trustees decision to effectivley write off £70m (from memory) of loans by converting them to shares. This happened only a couple of years ago - again the Trustees decision.

We must also remember that since Jack took over the club, and then the Trustees following his death, neither the Walker Family or the Trust have taken a single penny out of Rovers - and that is in black and white in the yearly accounts.

So to say the Trust aren't supporting the club is riddiculous. We need to consider firstly that when Jack was alive and in the couple of years after his death the financial madness had not reached the level it has now, which means that provisions made by Jack for the club, whilst seeming very generous at the time, are compartivley worth very little in todays market. The bottom line is that no owner can continue year on year pumping money into anything without getting any return, it would be financial suicide. We cant expect them to just keep pumping money in no questions asked. The Walkers have been financing the club since the early 90's, nigh on 20 years - does anyone seriosly think that Abramovich will still be pumping millions into chelsea in another ten years - not a chance, because like the Walkers, he simply could not afford to keep doing over that period of time.

Another problem which faces Rovers is their limited income. The club could quite easily go to the Trust for an interest free loan to buy a player - say £10m for example. This has been done in the past, but the problem is now that if they provide the £10m for the fee the club cannot cover the annual wage bill for the said player on a operating basis. We are already running at an 80% ratio and to go above this would be crazy. We need to consider this before we have a go at the Trustees for not providing money. Paying the fee is only half the issue.

We would all love the Trust to be throwing unlimited amounts of money at the club, but we really should be grateful for the funding and stability that they do provide.

[mattyboy6000]

One thing to consider that has been mentioned before, when Rovers were relegated to the champ for those two seasons, and indeed the couple of seasons after we came back up the club made huge losses year on year. This was after Jacks death and there is no doubt about it that without the Trusts financial support in keeping rovers solvent (ie being able to pay bills as they fall due) Rovers would have gone into administration during this period.

brian you need to check some of your facts -this is wrong

your post would have some merit if you didn't call black white here.

the fact is the trust is predominantly run by people with no interest in us- if the balance of the trust tilted a little more in our favour i would expect them to throw a little more money around- calculated risks. whatever is thought of sparky now he took us to a level where more commitment was required from the owners to develop us any further- and there was no willingness to do this. if they had have done it may have gone awry, but equally they may have got there money back with us havign a few trophies to show for it (although maybe short of the champions league). this lackof willingness irks me the most- especially as the money they have contributed (loaned/written off) represents interest accrued on the walker fortune, a further contribution

[stuwilky]

brian you need to check some of your facts -this is wrong

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what is factualy incorrect matty.

[iamarover]

brian you need to check some of your facts -this is wrong

your post would have some merit if you didn't call black white here.

the fact is the trust is predominantly run by people with no interest in us- if the balance of the trust tilted a little more in our favour i would expect them to throw a little more money around- calculated risks. whatever is thought of sparky now he took us to a level where more commitment was required from the owners to develop us any further- and there was no willingness to do this. if they had have done it may have gone awry, but equally they may have got there money back with us havign a few trophies to show for it (although maybe short of the champions league). this lackof willingness irks me the most- especially as the money they have contributed (loaned/written off) represents interest accrued on the walker fortune, a further contribution

Well this is great news. Now that you are weighing in. So how much are you going to spend then? Don't tell me you don't have any money. By your logic it's a 'calculated risk' isnt it. spending money you don't have? Just write a cheque for a milion. No don't hold back. Two million. Then bust yourself and get on this message board and slag yourself off for not spending enough. It's a winner.

Alternatively write to the Trust and tell them what you think of their performance. Rovers go down. Jack dies. Rovers lose over £30m, yes £30m in the season they go up. Technically Rovers were bankrupt. So the Trust not only writes this gargantuan sum off, they then proceed to write off the loans - yes loans - Jack made to the club to bankroll Dalglish. £110 million. So they have spent roughly a grand for every man, woman and child in the town of Blackburn and asked for nothing back. Nothing. Not even salaries. No bonuses. No dividends. Staggering isn't it?

And you and the rest come on here and tell them they have no interest in the club. Yes of course they could afford to out of 'interest' accrued, but that's their job isn't it - to run a series of businesses for profit? Not unreasonably they have put the club up for sale to see if someone is simple enough to come in and sink millions into overrated, prima donna, vainglorious, preening, strutting, rapacious despicable football players in the pursuit of one of them lifting a silver pot on his head. Thousands of us are daft enough to pay to watch these clowns, because of the shirt they wear. But none of us is daft enough to spend more than we can afford in this bonkers pursuit of reflected glory, and we shouldn't insult and denigrate our owners who quite rightly have decided that a football club which will never ever make any money this side of an Ice Age in Hell is not exactly the right place to be forever sinking money while all around companies collapse and millions are being pushed into impoverishment.

If the Walker companies are protected from that and their employees ride out the storm because of the financial acumen of its Trustees, then that should be something to be lauded and not derided. The Rovers and their fans have had their run from the Trust, and their are 110 million reasons to thank them for their efforts. It may be time to move on, but the next owner is the most important decision the Club has ever made in its history. Pompey, West Ham, City, Southampton, Watford, Liverpool, United, Newcastle, Brighton, Wrexham, etc etc all made the wrong call. We should get on our knees every day that we have people in place who will not sell this great club down the river in the way that others have been. Philip, Brian Potter and thousands of others understand that. And so should you.

[theeggman]

What he said.

[RoversSG]

I think a simple analogy would be that if your bank instead of giving you interest on your savings started deducting a fixed sum every year, would you still put more money into that bank?

That is what the Trust is facing and i do think that the fact that they did not withdraw their money (take money from Rovers) is already better than what most of us would have done.

The problem is that many here thinks that the Trust should continue dumping money in ala Roman at Chelsea (Btw, i could never understand why he did that; He will in all likelihood never make a profit from his investment).

[Eddie]

That's a terrible analogy. The trust knows that Jack Walker never saw Blackburn Rovers Football Club as an investment, certainly not a moneymaking one. They won't be looking it as something they should make money from, more they don't want it to be a drain on the resources of the trust, but at the moment even that is unrealistic. Most people who buy football clubs aren't doing so to turn a profit, they are doing it either because of their passion for that particular club or because they have so much money that they enjoy owning one as a plaything (and by the way, of all owners Abramovich is actually one of the more likely to ever see a profit on his investment).

So they have spent roughly a grand for every man, woman and child in the town of Blackburn and asked for nothing back. Nothing. Not even salaries. No bonuses. No dividends. Staggering isn't it?

Why would they ask for salaries or dividends? The trustees themselves don't have claim to the trust. They are acting in the best interest of the trust, not looking to make a profit for themselves.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

That's a terrible analogy. The trust knows that Jack Walker never saw Blackburn Rovers Football Club as an investment, certainly not a moneymaking one. They won't be looking it as something they should make money from, more they don't want it to be a drain on the resources of the trust, but at the moment even that is unrealistic. Most people who buy football clubs aren't doing so to turn a profit, they are doing it either because of their passion for that particular club or because they have so much money that they enjoy owning one as a plaything (and by the way, of all owners Abramovich is actually one of the more likely to ever see a profit on his investment).

Why would they ask for salaries or dividends? The trustees themselves don't have claim to the trust. They are acting in the best interest of the trust, not looking to make a profit for themselves.

Jack may not have seen Rovers as a profit making operation, but he did want it self financing. He said this on many occassions.

[PAFELL]

No incorrect!

The Trust maintained the inflow of money into the Rovers at a slightly higher average rate in the six years following Jack's death than the average rate that Jack had paid in from his first purchase of a controlling interest.

The analysis of other clubs is also wrong.

Man U and Liverpool have American owners and debts that need to be recycled without knowing at the moment exactly how those debts will be renewed. Both clubs are being dramatically held back by these wholly ownership structures. Man U are now headed towards the £300m mark in interest charges since the Glazers took over. Liverpool have no new stadium and the story behind the Keane sale is they had to for cash flow reasons.

Arsenal and Spurs are both highly profitable well-run clubs hampered by a long-running boardroom fight for control (Arsenal) and a seeming perpetual inability to turn money into footballers (Spurs).

BOTH Arsenal and Spurs are doing what everyone is urging the Rovers to do- keeping a very tight reign on footballers wages and passing up the opportunities to acquire when wage demands are outside their structures.

Chelsea- Abramovich has just followed the Walker Trust model and converted 50% of his £710m interest free debt into ordinary shares. The Walker Trust converted £105m of debt into shares at Rovers by the way.

Everton- are scrimping along on 40,000 gates. The 100% increment in gate revenue means they can throw off roughly £20m a year for new purchases except for the problem of now having a pretty onerous and dangerous level of bank borrowings which Rovers don't have.

West Ham and Pompey are the real villains in all this in that their new owners are very substantially to blame for the latest upwards twist in the players' wage spiral now aided and abetted by City's succession of owners. Both clubs are in deep trouble although it is amazing that West Ham have managed to bring in a net £50m+ in transfer sales this season and still are in the top half of the League.

Not being involved or understanding financial issues, but what does it mean turning a debt into shares? How does that work etc. Is this just financial speak for writing a debt off? I do not understand the share part though!!!! Enlighten please.

[PAFELL]

Well this is great news. Now that you are weighing in. So how much are you going to spend then? Don't tell me you don't have any money. By your logic it's a 'calculated risk' isnt it. spending money you don't have? Just write a cheque for a milion. No don't hold back. Two million. Then bust yourself and get on this message board and slag yourself off for not spending enough. It's a winner.

Alternatively write to the Trust and tell them what you think of their performance. Rovers go down. Jack dies. Rovers lose over £30m, yes £30m in the season they go up. Technically Rovers were bankrupt. So the Trust not only writes this gargantuan sum off, they then proceed to write off the loans - yes loans - Jack made to the club to bankroll Dalglish. £110 million. So they have spent roughly a grand for every man, woman and child in the town of Blackburn and asked for nothing back. Nothing. Not even salaries. No bonuses. No dividends. Staggering isn't it?

And you and the rest come on here and tell them they have no interest in the club. Yes of course they could afford to out of 'interest' accrued, but that's their job isn't it - to run a series of businesses for profit? Not unreasonably they have put the club up for sale to see if someone is simple enough to come in and sink millions into overrated, prima donna, vainglorious, preening, strutting, rapacious despicable football players in the pursuit of one of them lifting a silver pot on his head. Thousands of us are daft enough to pay to watch these clowns, because of the shirt they wear. But none of us is daft enough to spend more than we can afford in this bonkers pursuit of reflected glory, and we shouldn't insult and denigrate our owners who quite rightly have decided that a football club which will never ever make any money this side of an Ice Age in Hell is not exactly the right place to be forever sinking money while all around companies collapse and millions are being pushed into impoverishment.

If the Walker companies are protected from that and their employees ride out the storm because of the financial acumen of its Trustees, then that should be something to be lauded and not derided. The Rovers and their fans have had their run from the Trust, and their are 110 million reasons to thank them for their efforts. It may be time to move on, but the next owner is the most important decision the Club has ever made in its history. Pompey, West Ham, City, Southampton, Watford, Liverpool, United, Newcastle, Brighton, Wrexham, etc etc all made the wrong call. We should get on our knees every day that we have people in place who will not sell this great club down the river in the way that others have been. Philip, Brian Potter and thousands of others understand that. And so should you.

I for one am grateful for having explained what the Walker trust have been doing these past years. To be honest, like many on here, I have been complacent with regards to the Walker trust, mainly through ignorance.

Rovers do need money to boost their income, so I am surprised that they reduced ticket prices or kept them as they were when everybody else was putting them up. I wonder if Rovers supporters would be happy for an increase in ticket prices to 'help' the club.

[Jan]

Not being involved or understanding financial issues, but what does it mean turning a debt into shares? How does that work etc. Is this just financial speak for writing a debt off? I do not understand the share part though!!!! Enlighten please.

Shares are the way by which a company is owned. If you are a shareholder you are entitled to a dividend in the company if a profit is made and the directors say that one can be paid. This is very rare in football clubs.

However, in theory, a non-interest paying loan which has no repayment date is better than shares as in the first case, the loan is permanent but in the second, dividends can be paid.

[thenodrog]

I wonder if Rovers supporters would be happy for an increase in ticket prices to 'help' the club.

I don't think you need to wonder for long on that one.

I've said all along that what was a well intentioned and popular move at the time would backfire in the long term.