[Archived] Birmingham Preview

[Kelbo]

Building a wall is a fundamental duty for a keeper that I doubt is coached at this level. In fact, I'm not sure it's something that really can be coached. The wall was Brown's fault, so was his positioning. If your wall is supposedly protecting the right side of the goal, then you position yourself centrally or further to the left. From what I can tell, the wall had a big hole in it and wasn't really covering either side of the goal properly. Brown was then too far over to the right, his vision probably blocked by Andrews and Dunn who were a foot away from the others in the wall.

Yes it is coached, it is coached in a way so as to protect one area of the goal and the positioning of the keeper has to be correct! Thes things are worked on day after day in training and something is sadly wrong here, firstly whats the point of a wall where the keeper has no vision of the ball?? Looked as though Brown nevr saw the ball until it hit the net, so he was in the wrong position, as Majiball has rightly said, the wall was too central,I am sure that will be looked at in training and Mr Laws who was at the game will have taken note!

[darwenblueswearehere]

I didn't see the game last night, but I actually disagree on Kalinic. His ability to hold the ball up and bring others into play and his ability to win flick ons make him a perfect lone striker. The problem lies in the fact that he rarely gets any support. He'll harry, chase, hold the ball, win the flick ons, but there's nobody within 15 yards of him. He can only do so much and eventually loses possession.

It was also Kalinic's backing into the Birmingham defenders which caused the long ball to break to Dunn for his goal. When supported, the balls up to him are effective.

We certainly don't play to Kalinic's strengths as a rule. However, overall I thought he was quite poor last night, his first touch wasn't great though you can't deny that he works hard. Roberts played the role better when he came on.

Incidentally, I disagree about the 'flick on' being part of a lone striker's armoury. Who would he be flicking it on to? The guy in the hole or in midfield flicking it on has a chance of putting the lone striker through though, if he's switched on and anticipating it.

[Majiball]

Yes it is coached, it is coached in a way so as to protect one area of the goal and the positioning of the keeper has to be correct! Thes things are worked on day after day in training and something is sadly wrong here, firstly whats the point of a wall where the keeper has no vision of the ball?? Looked as though Brown nevr saw the ball until it hit the net, so he was in the wrong position, as Majiball has rightly said, the wall was too central,I am sure that will be looked at in training and Mr Laws who was at the game will have taken note!

If I was Laws I'd be working on playing through balls into area's to tempt him out. He had a few rushes of blood last night and isn't good at choosing when to come if he gets it wrong on Sunday and they've practiced that type of senario, they could get a goal from it.

Your dead right Kelbo he couldn't see the ball at all, scenario. I know its harsh but that was schoolboy like organisation from Brown and the wall. I would be keen to see what Sam was doing at the time on the sideline he must have seen it.

[den]

Incidentally, I disagree about the 'flick on' being part of a lone striker's armoury. Who would he be flicking it on to?

Yes, it's not about "flick ons" - that's what Benni used to frustrate the fans with. It's about getting hold of the ball, shielding it from the defenders and then laying it off.

[tcj_jones]

Yes it is coached, it is coached in a way so as to protect one area of the goal and the positioning of the keeper has to be correct! Thes things are worked on day after day in training and something is sadly wrong here, firstly whats the point of a wall where the keeper has no vision of the ball?? Looked as though Brown nevr saw the ball until it hit the net, so he was in the wrong position, as Majiball has rightly said, the wall was too central,I am sure that will be looked at in training and Mr Laws who was at the game will have taken note!

Your dead right Kelbo he couldn't see the ball at all, scenario. I know its harsh but that was schoolboy like organisation from Brown and the wall. I would be keen to see what Sam was doing at the time on the sideline he must have seen it.

I've already criticised the manner in which the wall was formed and the defending of the free kick. I was making exactly the same points as you.

In regards to coaching how to assemble a wall, I'm not sure how exactly that needs to be coached day in, day out. Sure, defending free kicks is practiced and there is something to be gained from practising setting the wall up quickly and knowing who to employ in it etc. But in terms of the general positioning, surely any keeper playing in this league should know how to assess his angles and where to put the wall? I used to play in goal, and assembling the wall was just common sense.

I didn't see the game last night, but I actually disagree on Kalinic. His ability to hold the ball up and bring others into play and his ability to win flick ons make him a perfect lone striker. The problem lies in the fact that he rarely gets any support. He'll harry, chase, hold the ball, win the flick ons, but there's nobody within 15 yards of him. He can only do so much and eventually loses possession.

It was also Kalinic's backing into the Birmingham defenders which caused the long ball to break to Dunn for his goal. When supported, the balls up to him are effective.

We certainly don't play to Kalinic's strengths as a rule. However, overall I thought he was quite poor last night, his first touch wasn't great though you can't deny that he works hard. Roberts played the role better when he came on.

Incidentally, I disagree about the 'flick on' being part of a lone striker's armoury. Who would he be flicking it on to? The guy in the hole or in midfield flicking it on has a chance of putting the lone striker through though, if he's switched on and anticipating it.

I've obviously got confused writing about the flick ons (although he is good at winning them). I still think he has all the attributes to make a really good front man, and that he has proved this over the last few months. I'd like to see him in a 4-4-2, and I'm not necessarily saying that he is better as a lone striker, but he plays the role very well IMO. The problem lies in a lack of support from midfield.

[london-rover]

not sure if its been mentioned anywhere but the last couple of home games in the bburn end there’s been two photographers with green BRFC PRESS jackets on taking photos of the crowd

tis quite irritating trying to watch the game and these guys snapping away at you!

anyone know why and what for ?

[thenodrog]

I want to see Bunny in goal on Sunday.

The Silver lining in all of this? People will love Robbo more now.

What do you base that on? I think I've only seen Bunn very briefly.

[thenodrog]

If I was Laws I'd be working on playing through balls into area's to tempt him out. He had a few rushes of blood last night and isn't good at choosing when to come if he gets it wrong on Sunday and they've practiced that type of senario, they could get a goal from it.

Right....... like we should be plotting exactly the same tactics for the Beast.

[thenodrog]

I'd like to see him in a 4-4-2, and I'm not necessarily saying that he is better as a lone striker, but he plays the role very well IMO. The problem lies in a lack of support from midfield.

You've contradicted yourself. 4-4-2 means nowt. What we need to do is arrange for at least one midfielder to be charging up in support when the ball is on it's way to Kalinic.

Last night Dunny's goal showed how effective our system can be. Unfortunately from then on Brum pressed our midfield deeper and deeper and Dunny simply does not possess the pace and stamina to keep charging back and forth.

not sure if its been mentioned anywhere but the last couple of home games in the bburn end there’s been two photographers with green BRFC PRESS jackets on taking photos of the crowd

tis quite irritating trying to watch the game and these guys snapping away at you!

anyone know why and what for ?

Must be looking for a big ginger guy accompanied by a short chinese bloke wearing a jewish skullcap asking all and sundry what 'I were agate' and 'ecky thump' means.

[Kelbo]

You've contradicted yourself. 4-4-2 means nowt. What we need to do is arrange for at least one midfielder to be charging up in support when the ball is on it's way to Kalinic.

Last night Dunny's goal showed how effective our system can be. Unfortunately from then on Brum pressed our midfield deeper and deeper and Dunny simply does not possess the pace and stamina to keep charging back and forth.

O'Hara anyone??

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

O'Hara anyone??

Yeh, I'd take him. Poor man's James Milner. He's attitude must be good to still be pulling out all the stops in effectively what is someone else's battle.

[JamieUK]

are we playing real madrid on sunday,we are playing the bloody dingles.dunny should have gone of after the 2nd goal but worry not the EXPERT knows what he's doing

I think the Dunn substitution timing was influenced when Salgado going down injured and taking some time to fully recover. Taking Duny off and Salgado being unable to continue would have left us with no subs left to make... Dont let that get in the way of your usual @#/? tho...

[Majiball]

I've already criticised the manner in which the wall was formed and the defending of the free kick. I was making exactly the same points as you.

In regards to coaching how to assemble a wall, I'm not sure how exactly that needs to be coached day in, day out. Sure, defending free kicks is practiced and there is something to be gained from practising setting the wall up quickly and knowing who to employ in it etc. But in terms of the general positioning, surely any keeper playing in this league should know how to assess his angles and where to put the wall? I used to play in goal, and assembling the wall was just common sense.

I quoted you and replied to reinforce the point not to disagree.

Considering he probably does practice free kics etc, its most probably done with manikins mostly not players. You would think it was common sense it not tricky with posts and the such to use. I still cannot believe he stood behind the wall without a clea line of sight, guess Brown lacks common sense but we should have known that from his bus driver days.

What do you base that on? I think I've only seen Bunn very briefly.

A mate from Plymouth reckons he doing alright, they've played them and I trust his judgement. Brown could have cost us two points last night, lets see if Bunn is less eratic. Browns hardly been playing and Bunn has, don't forget he was getting reasonable views in the champioship and after all Burnley are a champioship standard team.

[tcj_jones]

I quoted you and replied to reinforce the point not to disagree.

No worries Majibal, I was referring more to the other poster

[bazza]

Is this the Keith Andrews thread or the Rovers v Brum thread?

OK, he had a poorer game than normal.

I just hope he scores a hat-trick against the dingles. That should shut a lot of you up!!

[modes98]

I just hope he scores a hat-trick against the dingles. That should shut a lot of you up!!

So do I. I'll still moan about the way he celebrated the 2nd one though. Not enough finger pointing!

[thenodrog]

A mate from Plymouth reckons he doing alright, they've played them and I trust his judgement. Brown could have cost us two points last night, lets see if Bunn is less eratic. Browns hardly been playing and Bunn has, don't forget he was getting reasonable views in the champioship and after all Burnley are a champioship standard team.

Obviously SA doesn't trust your mates judgement.

Majiball if you have not seen Bunn play but are relying on 3rd party reports from somebody who hasn't been able to compare him with Brown it represents a very flimsy opinion to say the least, and would be no basis to make any sort of informed judgement. Especially so for Sundays match which will begin with a white hot atmosphere. I doubt from watching Bunn for one match that your mate can comment on Bunn's temperament for a match of such significance.

[Steve Moss]

We got 3 points, end of. Roll on the Dingles, and another 3 points. Pretty, ugly, hoofball, call it whatever you like, we got the 3 points and on our way to safety. If we played pretty football and got relegated, then you would have cried.

And don't forget Portsmouth after that. I hope we can take another 6 points in our next two games. 44 points would be a sweet starting point when we host ManU, etc.

I don't really think many can argue with that. It's true. The key player is the man in the hole behind the striker. If it's Wayne Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard then it works and it's called 4-4-2 or at worst 4-4-1-1 but if it's somebody who is 20 yards too deep it doesn't and it's called 4-5-1. SA's comments are not even controversial.

That was referred to as 'Total football' in the 70's. It's origin was in Rinus Michells marvellous Dutch team of 74.

As I said, I'm a relative novice. I have some more reading to do. Any suggestions?

[Majiball]

Obviously SA doesn't trust your mates judgement.

Majiball if you have not seen Bunn play but are relying on 3rd party reports from somebody who hasn't been able to compare him with Brown it represents a very flimsy opinion to say the least, and would be no basis to make any sort of informed judgement. Especially so for Sundays match which will begin with a white hot atmosphere. I doubt from watching Bunn for one match that your mate can comment on Bunn's temperament for a match of such significance.

Isn't that how scouting works in the world of football? Match analysis and so on? Or do you think Sam does everything never relying on his team? Scouts go and watch players for one game and make a judgement call every day in football.

Didn't Sam recently trust the judgement of his team over his own in playing Jones?

My mate has a high level of craft knowledge and would be considered and expert performer, he knows his football. So I trust him and his supposed non-informed judgement.

[yankrover]

As far as Kalinic, I think it's our utter lack of pace in the midfield that renders him ineffective. At this point, he's not strong enough to hold the ball up long enough for our midfield to chug up to support him. Diouf, Dunn, and Peds all have some skills, but none of them are what you'd call fast enough (especially over 90 minutes), and I think that's our biggest problem going forward at the moment.

[thenodrog]

As far as Kalinic, I think it's our utter lack of pace in the midfield that renders him ineffective. At this point, he's not strong enough to hold the ball up long enough for our midfield to chug up to support him. Diouf, Dunn, and Peds all have some skills, but none of them are what you'd call fast enough (especially over 90 minutes), and I think that's our biggest problem going forward at the moment.

The first yard is in some players heads remember.

Also they can talk on the pitch and if one of em drops deep then one of them can stay within touch of Kalinic. All of them dropping deep just allows more of the opposition to move up the field too.

[Kelbo]

I've already criticised the manner in which the wall was formed and the defending of the free kick. I was making exactly the same points as you.

In regards to coaching how to assemble a wall, I'm not sure how exactly that needs to be coached day in, day out. Sure, defending free kicks is practiced and there is something to be gained from practising setting the wall up quickly and knowing who to employ in it etc. But in terms of the general positioning, surely any keeper playing in this league should know how to assess his angles and where to put the wall? I used to play in goal, and assembling the wall was just common sense.

So what you are saying really is that Brown has no common sense, therefore he has to be told and coached, Mike Phelan told me the difference in coaching at Man U (as opposed to coaching at West Brom) at Man U, you told the players once, at West Brom you had to tell them the same things day in day out!!

[thenodrog]

Isn't that how scouting works in the world of football? Match analysis and so on? Or do you think Sam does everything never relying on his team? Scouts go and watch players for one game and make a judgement call every day in football.

Didn't Sam recently trust the judgement of his team over his own in playing Jones?

My mate has a high level of craft knowledge and would be considered and expert performer, he knows his football. So I trust him and his supposed non-informed judgement.

If your mate's an expert performer whatever that is then maybe you'd be wise to forward your mate's contact details to SA. Until then Sam'll prefer to rely on his own contacts for info wont he?

Until then I don't think he will risk his reputation for one of the most significant matches of a decade on 'some mate of a mate' or whatever. If he recalled Bunn on a whim, Bunn froze and had a mare and we lost heavily both sets of supporters would remember that for decades. If he sticks with Brown who might have a similar mare people will rem that our first choice keeper and holder of 40 odd England caps was injured. Remember Brown has just kept goal for our last two matches against superior opposition and we've not been beaten.

btw ... Brown isn't a world beater by soime distance but what does your mate say about changing a winning team?

[Majiball]

If your mate's an expert performer whatever that is then maybe you'd be wise to forward your mate's contact details to SA. Until then Sam'll prefer to rely on his own contacts for info wont he?

Until then I don't think he will risk his reputation for one of the most significant matches of a decade on 'some mate of a mate' or whatever. If he recalled Bunn on a whim, Bunn froze and had a mare and we lost heavily both sets of supporters would remember that for decades. If he sticks with Brown who might have a similar mare people will rem that our first choice keeper and holder of 40 odd England caps was injured. Remember Brown has just kept goal for our last two matches against superior opposition and we've not been beaten.

btw ... Brown isn't a world beater by soime distance but what does your mate say about changing a winning team?

Ok firstly stop twisting what I said, I said I want to see Bunn in goal, not I demand Sam to listen to me and my mate. You have a habit of wanting the last word regardless and twist whats been said to get it, we've been through this before. Which really makes most of your reply rubbish since its based on fabrication, again. I assume its not on in your world for people to voice opinions, suggest players they want to sign, what team they would play and so on? Because thats what most of this Board is all about, you must find it a frustrating place why do you punish yourself so?

Since you don't know what an expert performer is, I suggest you look it up using google before you open your mouth as shouting without knowledge only leads to embarrassment.

Brown cost us one goal, we were lucky that Hart reciprocated, you wouldn't be happy if we had dropped points because of his actions. Never change a winning team?, well I suggest you go speak to the likes of Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger who will drop individuals if they fail to perform regardless of result and their records speak for themselves. A player is only as good as his last performance, and Browns was poor. If I was a defender playing in front of him I'd be worried about what he was going to do, that will not help on Sunday.

What makes you think that people will remember Bunn having a mare and if Brown has one they'll just put it down to Robbo being missing. Robbo's injured regardless of who keeps goal, or do you mean that you will judge them both on different level playing fields? As thats very unfair.

[london-rover]

Must be looking for a big ginger guy accompanied by a short chinese bloke wearing a jewish skullcap asking all and sundry what 'I were agate' and 'ecky thump' means.

your humors lost on me