[Archived] Facism- Alive And Well And Living In Israel

[broadsword]

Its human rights record is one of the best in the world,

Has anyone let the Palestinians know?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-other-side-of-the-gaza-blockade-1992076.html

[ABBEY]

i see them there nice hamas chaps are firing rockets at israel again bless em.

[thenodrog]

i see them there nice hamas chaps are firing rockets at israel again bless em.

Indiscriminate I assume Abbey? And no doubt from the grounds of a school or hospital. No problems with that is there? But let the Israeli's target and fire one or two at those daft paddy's on that ship there'll be hell to pay.

[tony gale's mic]

The terms of this debate reminds me of the story about the president of Harvard who justified his university's policy of proscribing Jewish students because, "Jews cheat". When challenged that, "Protestants also cheat", his response was "stop changing the subject; we're talking about Jews!"

So Israel's more authoritarian than the House of Saud, Great Britain's main regional ally? More oppressive than Sudan, who's President, Turkey recently hosted, despite being charged with genocide by the International Criminal Court? Israel appropriates land and controls those lands more ruthlessly and brutally than Russia? And let's not even go there with those other stalwart friends of Great Britain like Libya, China, and Afghanistan.

I know – I'm "changing the subject; we're talking about Jews" here.

Well, there were several female Arab Israeli Knesset members, like Haneen Zoabi, aboard the Mavi Marmara, who, on their return, wasted no time in castigating the Likud led government on local and international television.

Israel has a free, and raucous, press. There is no such equivalent in the region and beyond.

Its human rights record is one of the best in the world, and the best in the entire Middle East. The Supreme Court in Jerusalem is independent, and purposively upholds the rights of women, gays, racial and religious minorities. Israeli Arabs serve as Supreme Court Justices.

Despite this, the Jewish state is singled out for the routine kind of demonization, delegitimization and double-standards that no other nation is remotely subjected to.

More disturbingly, the use of terms like "Jewish Fascists", "Zionist Fascists" and "Nazis", suggests a far more sinister expropriation of the narrative of the Holocaust, from those who were its actual victims, than the likes of David Irving or Nick Griffin would ever have dared dream of, even in their more depraved attempts at Holocaust denial. So the Jews are berated with their greatest national tragedy in over 5000 years of recorded history.

To put things in to perspective, in the Warsaw Ghetto alone, the Nazis murdered around half a million Jews within the space of several months, through starvation, transportion, or on the spot liquidation. Those making such analogies really ought to take a good look at themselves.

Probably a more accurate title to this debate would be: 'The Oldest Hatred; Alive and Well and Living in Great Britain'.

Those singling out Israel, once again, are either ignoramuses or immoral bigots.

It's human rights record is one of the best in the world?!!

All one needs to read is the above to determine your sense of perspective on this matter.

It is a state which has recently cloned foreign passports of innocent people in order to commit murder, denying people in the occupied territories their right to self determination, denying those in Gaza to have three quarters of what they need on a day to day basis by way of blockades; these are not the actions of one of the best human rights countries in the world.

The key point here is that no one denies that life in the state of Israel proper is not so bad, although still nowhere to be amongst the best in the world as you make out. It's not life within the state of Israel which is the issue here, it's the actions of the Israeli government in occupying and blockading other territories which is the chief issue. Your reeling off boasting facts about Israel which most of us take for granted isn't impressing anyone, yes it's much less of an internal nutcase than many Arab countries but this is not what is up for debate.

However, just to take you to task to show you another example of how off the mark you are...Israel's "free" press has no equivalent in the region and beyond?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index

Reporters without Borders names the Israeli territory 93rd in the world (some 32 places below Lebanon) and the occupied territories 150th, below a whole host of Arab nations.

Yes, it does compare favourably with the likes of Saudi Arabia. However most of those other countries are not blockading other countries and ILLEGALLY occupying parts of their territory. How can you possibly play the victim in this situation when it's doing this with the support of most of the Western World's major sources of media (News International is markedly pro-Israel, most of our newspapers in the UK are pro-Israel) together with the continued support of the US, UK and EU governments?!

[tony gale's mic]

Indiscriminate I assume Abbey? And no doubt from the grounds of a school or hospital. No problems with that is there? But let the Israeli's target and fire one or two at those daft paddy's on that ship there'll be hell to pay.

Far, far more people were killed in the Israeli bombardment on Gaza than have ever been killed by the rocket attacks.

Yet Israel, as I have stated time and time again and which is perhaps the biggest issue here, enjoys the continued support of the Western World. However these rocket attacks were (rightly) condemned by everyone including Mahmoud Abbas.

[tony gale's mic]

I totally agree. The international media has an agenda against the state of Israel. Does Israel have public stonings, beheadings, amputations, beatings, hangings & floggings etc on a daily basis? I think not.

Israel & it`s government isn`t perfect by a long way, but i could name plenty of muslim countries with far far more concerning human rights records.....many of whom are largely ignored by the media.

Ah yes, that noted Palestinian supporter Rupert Murdoch who is the biggest media player in the world. And our very own anti-Israeli papers like those owned by Murdoch together with the Express and the Mail. And the Washington Post. And god knows how many other papers I could name.

Yes, there are also papers who have (rightly imo) been critical of many of Israel's actions but these are far fewer in number. One only needs to look at our own media for this to be illustrated, especially since the US is historically yet more pro-Israel we are and so is even more skewed.

Internal politics and human rights records are not the issue here. Illegal occupation, blockade and state sponsored piracy such as hijacking a boat in international waters and murdering its occupants are the main issues.

[cletus]

Far, far more people were killed in the Israeli bombardment on Gaza than have ever been killed by the rocket attacks.

So you`re criticising Israel for being better shots?

You forget, the Palestinians fire their rockets from heavily populated areas & then run & hide amongst women & children. Israel gave plenty of warnings stating if they didn`t cease these activities they would retaliate. The palestinians continued firing rockets......so Israel opened their very own can of whoop-ass. The palestinians got their arses well & truly kicked. Now they live in rubble & cry like babies to who-ever will listen to them.

If you look at Israel the country, it is a beautiful place will a fabulous climate. It is full of farms that produce lots of foodstuffs (fruit etc...) The south of the country (on the red sea) used to be a great holiday destination. I have friends who`ve lived there.

The Palestinian territories are in the same part of the world. It could be one of the biggest & best tourist hotspots in the med. The Palestinian people could take the peaceful option & begin to build a prosperous & vibrant economy & future for themselves.....BUT alas they choose survival, war & rubble. They choose to elect a terrorist organisation to run their land.

As i have said previously, Israel isn`t perfect by a long way, BUT i have zero sympathy for a people who choose the sword over the shovel.

[tony gale's mic]

So you`re criticising Israel for being better shots?

You forget, the Palestinians fire their rockets from heavily populated areas & then run & hide amongst women & children. Israel gave plenty of warnings stating if they didn`t cease these activities they would retaliate. The palestinians continued firing rockets......so Israel opened their very own can of whoop-ass. The palestinians got their arses well & truly kicked. Now they live in rubble & cry like babies to who-ever will listen to them.

If you look at Israel the country, it is a beautiful place will a fabulous climate. It is full of farms that produce lots of foodstuffs (fruit etc...) The south of the country (on the red sea) used to be a great holiday destination. I have friends who`ve lived there.

The Palestinian territories are in the same part of the world. It could be one of the biggest & best tourist hotspots in the med. The Palestinian people could take the peaceful option & begin to build a prosperous & vibrant economy & future for themselves.....BUT alas they choose survival, war & rubble. They choose to elect a terrorist organisation to run their land.

As i have said previously, Israel isn`t perfect by a long way, BUT i have zero sympathy for a people who choose the sword over the shovel.

What rubbish.

And yet there's absolutely no mention of Israel illegally occupying Palestinian settlements. How very strange. This all came BEFORE the rocket attacks. I do not support the methods that the Palestinians use but their cause is a very justifiable one. Their grandparents were kicked off from land where they had been inhabiting by the Allied forces, who granted the Israelis a huge chunk of the land. Whatever the rights or wrongs of this, Israel, supported by the major world powers and (despite your previous post which shows a clear lack of understanding about this situation) most of the world's media, have since aggressively expanded and are occupying settlements which go considerably beyond the boundaries of the original agreement. This goes against international laws and yet the world barely seems to care - indeed they are actively supported by the US in both a financial and a military sense.

I've never been to Israel but I hear it is beautiful. From what I hear it does get a little too hot on occasion but that's beside the point. The fact is that the Israelis have a much bigger chunk of this land and yet are hell bent on taking more, whereas the Palestinians are crammed into a tiny strip of land. Population density does not equal prosperity and if the Palestinians are to have a chance of prosperity they should at least be allowed back the land that was agreed upon as being theirs - ie the land which the Israelis are currently illegally occupying. It is only recently that Hamas have been elected and even then it was not by a majority so to say the Palestinian people have deserved this treatment over the years for voting for Hamas out of frustration with the process is extremely short sighted to say the least, especially when the Israelis have got a much more formidable track record with regards to voting in leaders who defy international law. Such as their current one.

Hamas' initial aims in the late 80s were very violent ones and I would much rather see Fatah be the public face of the Palestinian movement. However, they have publicly recently stated that going back to the pre-1967 borders would bring a ceasefire. In other words, all Israel would have to do to bring about this ceasefire is to comply with international law and give back land it is illegally occupying.

Is this just lies by Hamas? Will they demand yet more? Who knows, but it would be a good start at least.

Both sides are currently choosing the sword as is evidenced by the most recent goings on. Neither is choosing the shovel.

As I said though, your remark about the world's media being against Israel probably serves as a marker of your understanding of this situation.

[Steve Moss]

Hamas' initial aims in the late 80s were very violent ones and I would much rather see Fatah be the public face of the Palestinian movement. However, they have publicly recently stated that going back to the pre-1967 borders would bring a ceasefire. In other words, all Israel would have to do to bring about this ceasefire is to comply with international law and give back land it is illegally occupying.

A ceasefire? Is that the same thing as a temporary time out or truce?

And just what guarantees will Israel have that the ceasefire will be honored? Hamas promises? And even assuming Hamas could be trusted (which they can't as they are lying pieces of !@#$) do Hamas promises bind Hezbollah or any of the other groups who want to eradicate Israel, such as Iran?

Wow, a ceasefire. I'm impressed. NOT.

[tony gale's mic]

A ceasefire? Is that the same thing as a temporary time out or truce?

And just what guarantees will Israel have that the ceasefire will be honored? Hamas promises? And even assuming Hamas could be trusted (which they can't as they are lying pieces of !@#$) do Hamas promises bind Hezbollah or any of the other groups who want to eradicate Israel, such as Iran?

Wow, a ceasefire. I'm impressed. NOT.

Again, more wholly illogical reasoning.

So Israel can be trusted? A government which clones the passports of other countries to commit murder via its secret service can be trusted can it?

Israel SHOULD be returning this land - the UN themselves have decreed their occupation of the West Bank illegal.

And while Amedinajad is a bit of a nutcase, had you read a little more than just the initial headlines you will have noted the whole "wiping Israel off the map" has been wholly misinterpreted as numerous sources have shown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#.22Wiped_off_the_map.22_or_.22Vanish_from_the_pages_of_time.22_translation). He has made repeated assurances that war will not be waged by Iran against Israel and that he supports measures such as a Palestinian referendum instead. Therefore there is no overt threat by the Iran against Israel.

And ultimately how the hell should that even have a bearing on what goes on in the West Bank and their people's right to self determination? To hold the Palestinians responsible for electing Hamas (it's worth noting most voted against Hamas) and so impose blockades, sanctions etc on them is already very harsh ground. But to then say the Israelis should be allowed to illegally occupy the West Bank based on the likes of Hezbollah who are based in Lebanon makes absolutely no sense on any level. Further illegal occupation is far more likely to encourage reprisal by these groups.

[cletus]

As I said though, your remark about the world's media being against Israel probably serves as a marker of your understanding of this situation.

Hmmm.... Have you never watched BBC news?...... they literally fall over themselves to promote the palestinian plight.

You may not believe it, but most of the world`s press is not run by Murdoch. Granted yes, American politics has a strong pro-Israeli stance, but 99% of arab & asian newspapers & tv stations are anti-israel. That`s a large chunk of the world population there. I`d also wager a fair old portion of European press & tv is anti-Israeli or pro palestinian (which-ever way you want to put it) So, i`d say your arguement that the majority of the world`s media is pro-Israel has fallen on its arse there.

I`ll say it again, i`m not pro Israel. I think their government hasn`t helped the situation, but when you`re up against an enemy who train/indoctrinate/brainwash children into being walking bombs.....a foe whose only interest is to wipe you off the face of the earth, you cannot go in there all tippy-toed. You`ve got to stand up & defend yourself.

It wasn`t long ago they had a peace agreement. Wasn`t it the Palestinians was decided to break it?

[tony gale's mic]

Hmmm.... Have you never watched BBC news?...... they literally fall over themselves to promote the palestinian plight.

You may not believe it, but most of the world`s press is not run by Murdoch. Granted yes, American politics has a strong pro-Israeli stance, but 99% of arab & asian newspapers & tv stations are anti-israel. That`s a large chunk of the world population there. I`d also wager a fair old portion of European press & tv is anti-Israeli or pro palestinian (which-ever way you want to put it) So, i`d say your arguement that the majority of the world`s media is pro-Israel has fallen on its arse there.

I`ll say it again, i`m not pro Israel. I think their government hasn`t helped the situation, but when you`re up against an enemy who train/indoctrinate/brainwash children into being walking bombs.....a foe whose only interest is to wipe you off the face of the earth, you cannot go in there all tippy-toed. You`ve got to stand up & defend yourself.

It wasn`t long ago they had a peace agreement. Wasn`t it the Palestinians was decided to break it?

Oh this whole "BBC is biased" thing that everyone falls back on...the BBC have a reputation for being keen broadcasters of any humanatarian crisis and what is going on in Gaza right now, regardless of who you think is to blame for it, qualifies as a humanitarian crisis. This is wholly different to actual bias which is when a newspaper, channel or whole global organisation (eg News International) has a chairman who has repeatedly said he is strongly behind the Israeli cause and dictates editorial policy to follow this line.

And yes, doubtless the Arab/Pakistani media are largely pro-Palestine. The Chinese media (state run as it is) are unlikely to have much of a stance on the issue, it may be slightly pro-Palestinian, however there is no great link between the Chinese government and this situation so I very much doubt the state run media will fall on any one particular side. However looking through India and South East Asia (excluding Muslim Indonesia) and the situation becomes a lot more grey. India is Israel's largest ally, they have close defence and security relations, supply and deal arms between one another and share terrorism intelligence. Therefore state run media will most likely be pro-Israel and much non-state run news comes from Western sources eg the Murdoch owned STAR news. In the far East things will probably be quite balanced apart from Indonesia and Malaysia.

So really, Asia is at best a mixed picture when it comes to pro-Israeli sentiment but it's worth noting that through the STAR networks Murdoch's empire has much more of a foothold there than any of their networks (including al-Jazeera) would ever do over here. Western media in general gets much, much more exposure there than Eastern media does over here.

So given the factors that Western media is arguably considerably more pro-Israel, local Asian media really does vary from region to region, and Western media is more prevalent throughout the world, it's still fair to say that your assertion that the world's media was against Israel was uninformed rubbish.

[thenodrog]

And while Amedinajad is a bit of a nutcase, had you read a little more than just the initial headlines you will have noted the whole "wiping Israel off the map" has been wholly misinterpreted as numerous sources have shown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#.22Wiped_off_the_map.22_or_.22Vanish_from_the_pages_of_time.22_translation). He has made repeated assurances that war will not be waged by Iran against Israel and that he supports measures such as a Palestinian referendum instead. Therefore there is no overt threat by the Iran against Israel.

Kin ell how green are you? A 'bit of a nutcase' hell bent on developing nuclear weapons is rather worrying to anyone with even an ounce of intelligence! Ever asked why he wants them and which direction do you think they will be pointing exactly?

I'd imagine that the hullaballoo and sabre rattling of the western powers to dissuade Iran from it's nuclear path is because ultimately they know Israel will not/cannot/dare not let it happen.

[tony gale's mic]

Kin ell how green are you? A 'bit of a nutcase' hell bent on developing nuclear weapons is rather worrying to anyone with even an ounce of intelligence! Ever asked why he wants them and which direction do you think they will be pointing exactly?

I'd imagine that the hullaballoo and sabre rattling of the western powers to dissuade Iran from it's nuclear path is because ultimately they know Israel will not/cannot/dare not let it happen.

Considering that Kim Jong Il already has nuclear weapons and has just sank a South Korean ship, I'd regard that as much more of a concern currently. While many of Ahmedinejad's comments have been questionable to say the least there is nothing in what he has said that has pointed to an urge to attack another country.

Israel are the only country in that region to currently possess nuclear weapons. Ahmedinajad could say he wanted them for reasons of national security since a hostile nation nearby also possessed them, much the same reasons as why Pakistan produced nuclear weapons due to India having them.

Still, congratulations on performing your usual tactic on selectively editing out the parts of my post you have no answer to and focusing instead on a side issue.

[cletus]

How ironic is it you edited your last post

[philipl]

Hamas are utterly objectionable.

But Karadic put his signature to the Dayton Peace Accord within 18 months of overseeing the Srebrenica massacre and Adams had been guilty of leading far more bloody mayhem in this country prior to the Good Friday agreement than anything Hamas have done in Israel.

Of course Likud and Hamas have to be brought to the negotiating table to face each other.

[tony gale's mic]

How ironic is it you edited your last post

I'd said theno was editing out the parts of my post he had no argument against when quoting them.

I edited out a typo I made.

Can you point out the irony in the above to me or are you just a bit thick?

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Considering that Kim Jong Il already has nuclear weapons and has just sank a South Korean ship, I'd regard that as much more of a concern currently. While many of Ahmedinejad's comments have been questionable to say the least there is nothing in what he has said that has pointed to an urge to attack another country.

Israel are the only country in that region to currently possess nuclear weapons. Ahmedinajad could say he wanted them for reasons of national security since a hostile nation nearby also possessed them, much the same reasons as why Pakistan produced nuclear weapons due to India having them.

Still, congratulations on performing your usual tactic on selectively editing out the parts of my post you have no answer to and focusing instead on a side issue.

Wow for a young Doctor you have a hell of a lot time on your hands.

I wouldn’t want to be a Jew on your ward or surgery

TGM you are a clone of Jim MRK II this one eyed bias imo does the left no favours. In fact it rather helps the Jews push t there “Europeans are anti Semitic mantra”

Both sides are at fault; The Palestinians chose to elect an organisation whose core value is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. I see you have chosen not to mention the part that the Palestinians uncontrolled birth rate is affecting the situation.

[tony gale's mic]

Wow for a young Doctor you have a hell of a lot time on your hands.

I wouldn’t want to be a Jew on your ward or surgery

TGM you are a clone of Jim MRK II this one eyed bias imo does the left no favours. In fact it rather helps the Jews push t there “Europeans are anti Semitic mantra”

Both sides are at fault; The Palestinians chose to elect an organisation whose core value is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. I see you have chosen not to mention the part that the Palestinians uncontrolled birth rate is affecting the situation.

Yes, being against the actions of the state of Israel is exactly, exactly the same as being anti-Semitic. They're practically one and the same. Right? To even contemplating labelling someone as being against Jews when they are commenting on the policy of successive governments of Israel is utterly, utterly idiotic and insulting in the extreme. However, given your track record on here I would not expect any different from you.

By the way I'm currently on nights so my days are mostly spent in bed, plotting the downfall of my Jewish patients for my night shifts and, of course, posting on here.

How is it one eyed bias when I've acknowledged that Hamas are highly unpalatable? The majority of Palestinians however did not vote for them. Their election is a relatively new development; the illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank is not. The CIA World factbook has the current Palestinian birth rate of 25.95 per 1,000. The current world growth rate is around 20, but 20 years ago was around 27. So yes, it is playing a role in population density (though not a hugely significant one) but the birth rate of the Palestinians has absolutely no bearing on the fact that Israel are illegally occupying the West Bank.

Still, if you don't even have the brainpower to differentiate between anti-Semitism and being against the foreign policies of a country I don't expect much in the way of a logical argument.

[tashor]

By the way I'm currently on nights so my days are mostly spent in bed, plotting the downfall of my Jewish patients for my night shifts and, of course, posting on here.

Another example of "undereducation"...............

In my day it could be up to seven days and four nights (120 hours) in a week...........

No wonder modern doctors know nowt....................

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just two short extracts from articles written by Israeli journalists this week.

David Grossman-

" Above all this insane operation shows how far Israel has declined. There is no need to overstate this claim. Anyone with eyes to see understands and feels it. Already there are those who seek to spin the natural and justified sense of Israeli guilt into a strident assertion that the whole world is to blame. Our shame, however, will be harder to live with ".

Amos Oz-

" Every attempt to use force not as a preventative, not in self defence, but instead as a means of smashing problems and squashing ideas, will lead to more disasters- just like the one we brought on ourselves in international waters, on the high seas, opposite Gaza's shores "

Anyone who wishes to read the full articles will find them in Wednesdays "Guardian".I recomend them both.

[tashor]

Just two short extracts from articles written by Israeli journalists this week.

David Grossman-

" Above all this insane operation shows how far Israel has declined. There is no need to overstate this claim. Anyone with eyes to see understands and feels it. Already there are those who seek to spin the natural and justified sense of Israeli guilt into a strident assertion that the whole world is to blame. Our shame, however, will be harder to live with ".

Amos Oz-

" Every attempt to use force not as a preventative, not in self defence, but instead as a means of smashing problems and squashing ideas, will lead to more disasters- just like the one we brought on ourselves in international waters, on the high seas, opposite Gaza's shores "

Anyone who wishes to read the full articles will find them in Wednesdays "Guardian".I recomend them both.

Thanks for the above Tyrone............

Can't say I disagree with either............

Now...your challenge should you accept it................

Is to produce similar quotes from i.e. hamas that show that some amongst them are also able to be self-critical............

If, as usual, you think I am being obtuse what I am saying is that YOU have just proved what a mature democracy Israel is........

Now, can you say the same of your barbaric mates..............

[colin]

Didn't the Israeli armed forces say they were attacked by the people they "unfortunately" had to kill?

here

Yup, one big lie after another.

BTW

I know internet discussions do range far and wide off the original topic and that posters all over the world think that insulting the people who post opinions with which they do not agree is an educated strategy. So for the record -

(1) I am not anti-sematic

(2) I do not support Hamas bombing Israel

(3) Whether or not Iran or Israel has atomic weapons or the ability to create them is irrelevant to this post.

My post is just about the Israeli Defense Force stopping a peaceful flotilla of aid to Palestine and killing ten people by close shots to the head.

[adopted scouser]

My post is just about the Israeli Defense Force stopping a peaceful flotilla of aid to Palestine and killing ten people by close shots to the head.

aaaarrgghh ! There you go again Col. Where is the evidence that the ship did not also contain weapons/rockets/explosives ?

Oh what the hell, let them blow the shlt out of each other if they like, been going on for years and it's not likely to stop any time soon. If they start marching up the washway rd I'll get me bat and dustbin lid and join in.

[cletus]

I'd said theno was editing out the parts of my post he had no argument against when quoting them.

I edited out a typo I made.

Can you point out the irony in the above to me or are you just a bit thick?

My 'irony' comment was meant to be light-hearted

I gather you`re a trainee doctor or something? I think you need to prescribe yourself a chill pill & stop resorting to personal insults. Your opinions & mine are obviously at odds & no amount of tinterweb warrior debating will change our perspective on things. Maybe you should consult one of your textbooks & find out where your funny bone is.

Time to roll your neck in a bit