Blue blood

Well yes it is a matter of opinions but I still think it's massively optimistic to see that he will make those levels based on what we see. Firstly it's taken 2+ years to get to where he is. so a similar rate of progress suggests another 2 years to get to develop from his level. That's 4 years before getting anywhere near the money we paid. This becomes even more pertinent when we look at his current form which is a bit of a flat track bully. He's good against weaker teams, but poor Vs stronger teams. That doesn't shout out 7 million and suggests there is a fair way to go before developing to a level where he will be. 7 million talents can do it against tougher teams. Thirdly he has only looked good in this formation. That doesn't suggest huge quality and should the formation change due to injuries, personal change or unlikely as it is a new manager, that doesn't suggest he will continue to improve. And this is assuming there are no injuries or life events that impact Beretons development and stall it. Many a player has been transformed by an injury. Lots of its and buts however the evidence suggests that on balance of probabilities there s a long way to go before we get our 7 million back. That said as I have mentioned before I think the 7 million is a dead loss and that the best we can get from Bereton is a useful player. Looking for the 7 million perhaps isn't the most helpful thing in the situation.

Strongly disagree with point 3. Nowhere near that yet. Look it's a massive improvement. It's brilliant that he isn't a liability. But he is nowhere near a 7 million pound player as yet. Those players consistently score goals at this level. Best case scenario is Ben has 1 season of that and even then I'm not too sure how many he will get this year. He's looked great against weaker teams l, anonymous Vs stronger ones. That's not a 7 million pound player. I'm as glad as the next fan that he isn't a waste of a wage anymore but he still has a long way to go before being 7 million of talent. And I'm a tad cautious of looking for this 7 million player too. Imo that was hugely overpriced and perhaps not what success will look like with Ben. It was a huge error to pay that much for him and whilst I would love him to justify his fee I think a rectified situation perhaps looks a bit different to that.

Parker at Fulham strikes me as ond of those in the latter category. Not that good but with a good squad got promotion. Totally different approach to us. We haven't got an outstanding candidate- in the proper sense of the word - in all their recruitment. TM is the best we have had and tbh his record isn't exactly great.

Absolutely. Given we have strengthened in areas we have numbers in (although am not against that because of quality concerns rather than quantity) to not strengthen the defence more is crazy. We didn't rely on the promising Dolan, plus Bereton and Chapman out wide we brought in Elliott. Heck we even brought Downing back! But experienced defenders are at an utter premium at Rovers and we are content to go with the bare minimum and have makeshift full backs from.midfield.

Would agree. He needs to get a bit tougher or a bit smarter, both of which I think could be coached into him. The talent and control he has though can't be taught and makes him well worth holding onto. Think the patience point is key. Given he needs more toughness or smarts, that's not going to come overnight. so it's not a case of switching his position or something simple to make a difference it will take work. But something definitely worth persevering with.

Thoughts on the game: 1) Crucial win. Stops the rot and go into the break on a bit more of a positive trajectory. 2) My word don't our best players make a difference? 3) Armstrong - if he was more clinical he wouldn't be here. Likewise if there were more natural scorers in the team his wastefulness wouldn't be as much an issue. Overall very pleased with his progress and we are a different team with him in the first 11. 4) A defence of youth graduates show we have spent next to nothing/ignored our defence. Sure we had a couple injured but that was the case across the team. I'm not sure whether it is Venkys or TM or a couple of good youth grads covering over the cracks but we seem to have ignored the defence. Contrast with the amount of midfielders we have brought in and you see a heck of a difference. You feel a bit more spent on the defence and we would be a much better prospect. 5) Johnson on his day is one of our most important players. The problem is that inconsistency, injuries and a lack of fitness make this something that cannot be relied upon. Shame because when on form he is a beast. 6) We have too many fair weather players that look good when we are playing well winning but poor when struggling. Bereton seems a prime example of this. That said 6 months ago if you would have said Bereton would turn into a fair weather player rather than a flop then I would have taken it, as that's a big improvement. 7) Today showed why I think I am right about relegation not being an issue. We will beat too many of the weaker teams and pick up points. Not sure we have enough about us for a promotion push but there's enough in there which will get the 1 win in 4 to keep us safe.

And he kept us up with a strike force of post injury Jansen, Dickov, Stead and Boothroyd. If he can do that with them then he might even get a tune out of our strikers.

I think it's probably one of my top two seasons attending too. The other contenders being under Souness promotion season and first year back in the Prem.

The whole of that season was crazy. Like you said we had an amazing start. We hammered champions Arsenal on their patch before they returned the favour to us later on. There were some nutty high scoring games - lost to Leeds 3-4, beat Leicester 5-3. We got into Europe in the last game of the season beating the Barcodes with a thunderbolt free kick from Sutton. Will certainly remember that one for a long time.

There's also the small matter of how we are performing on the pitch! On paper we look to have a good squad and a decent one even with the injuries (see I agree with you on occasions!) But we aren't playing to either of our theoretical ability levels (with or without injuries). It's also worth noting that should we not get in the playoffs as you suggest we should, that won't reflect well on the manager...

Strangely my Dad says the opposite. He wants to go more now he can't. Perhaps because it's a way of spending time together and lockdown has prevented home visits and other ways of doing so. Maybe if watching football matches is permissible as oppose to home visits it could have an effect on maintaining attendance? Agree with the main principle though. When the habit is gone then it's hard to get it back. A lot of other businesses will worry about that too.

Yes. Contrast this with Hughes and how fondly his team is remembered and I think a lot of the difference (outside of competence) is this.

I think so. I think it was the week or two before he had another heck of a shot from the edge of the area but Gally kind of helped it on its way with a back-heal and cause he got a touch it was credited to Gally. So Croft said he wellied the next one into the top corner to ensure he got the credit. Again why do I remember this? I forget milk when the missus asks me to get some yet I remember this.

That team is a company of heroes. Well, and Croft. He never did effectively replace Le Saux. Valery, Dailey, Croft, Wilcox - none really worked at left back during this period.

Yes of course it was Parkes. Still Davies instead of Casiraghi or Henry is even worse. Strange to say I really enjoyed the Rovers team of those 2 years - Parkes and Roy's first year. A proper British (and Scandinavian) hard man yet likeable team. Lots of potential heroes and characters in that team.

He isn't going anywhere. He is bulletproof. Actually that's not true as that implies someone is wanting/trying to get him out and that isn't the case. The majority of fans it seems, away from this board, want him to stay. After Coyle and Kean and providing the sole highlight in a decade TM is considered the golden boy. Venkys really don't give a hoot about us. The CEO is his mate. The local media is a brown nosing oushover. There's no threat whatsoever. 9 losses in 11 - who cares? Spunk £12 million on defunct talent - so.what? Bottle every playoff push - meh. Honestly he doesn't go anywhere at any point. Which could be a worse situation for us given the absolute clowns we have had in charge. Problem is it isn't a very good position to be in either by any stretch of the imagination.

Well that makes signing Pedersen even worse! To think we went from possibly Henri to this. Didn't Casiragi play for Chelsea for a bit? Didn't do too well if it's the player I am thinking of. What this thread is really showing is my lack of interest in football compared to when I was a kid!

I need to be a bit braver in guessing. Would have for Brooms and Croft. @LeftWinger you found the article. How was a kid meant to not think that was not a superstar we were getting? Reading it now it doesn't seem half as promising.

Wow. Given his badly Wycombe have started that shows how much we are underachieving. Perhaps a tad premature but a bad start really can cost you just look at our latest relegation. Those first 6 games proved to be the difference maker.

Thing is with Pedersen is I was young enough to believe what I read in the programme and not too aware of their ahem, overly positive slant. I thought we had signed an absolute superstar.

Well that isn't great news for us. Of course the deduction that they have still helps us but yes that does reduce our margin for error.

I don't think we will go down for several reasons but there is a distinct possibility of it. My reasons for thinking we will be safe are: 1) there is a good chance we will get better when players get back. I've said before we can't rely on this but logically of the 7+ players out at least one or two will improve us. We can't rely on all of them coming back being all guns blazing so there are question marks as to whether it will it be enough. But there should be some improvement in the team. 2) We have battered weaker teams. If we can batter enough of the weaker teams, and we are doing that convincingly, then we should have enough points to stay up. It's not looking great against any competent team but there are a number of weak ones that we have done well against so that should see us up. 3) Wednesday and Wycombe started late. The former are still not in positive points whilst Wycombe are only just got off the mark 6 or 7 games in. You have to think that the headstart over them means both are prime relegation candidates. These two clubs have a huge disadvantage which means there are less, certainly at least 1 less, relegation places at stake. That can only help. The big worry that makes me think we could get relegated is over complacency/relying on players to get back. This season has a bit of a 99 echo to it, especially with the injuries and overconfidence. Back then we shouldn't have gone down even with the injuries and poor management, and teaches us shouldn't isn't the wake as won't. There's a bit too much of a deja vu feeling for me to be completely comfortable even with the factors above suggestingnl that we should stay up.

I'm on his ignore list so please can someone repost. Having an opinion does not count as a valid reason for thinking something or make something true. An opinion needs evidence to back it up to be valid. For example if I say Messi is a rubbish footballer or the moon is made of cheese they might be my opinion, but they are not true, valid or unchallengeable. Same goes in this case too. Just stating it's your opinion doesn't make it true, valid or unchallengeable especially given the evidence strongly suggests otherwise. So what evidence is there to suggest we will get top 6?

That Stuart is the question. And given there is "no chance" of relegation despite our form and injuries, you do wonder how these conclusions are made. And if the unchallengeable opinions reason comes out I may bang my head against the wall... Edit I'm also not sure how someone can think there is no chance of being relegated, think we will make top six and be happy with the job the manager is doing and where we are languishing in the league...

Too right. And if I'm honest I don't think they bring that much to the team when battering weaker opponents. Certainly Gally, one goal aside, hasn't looked that promising or threatening at all. And Bereton though much improved, is at best useful, and without this system that favours him, his usefulness decreases significantly. At present we have Plan A for beating weaker teams, which is great, gets something out of Bereton, and is key because we have often struggled to break these teams down. But we don't have a Plan B for facing other teams, that doesn't leave us too vulnerable. Perhaps this should say we don't have a Plan A because, as you say, these are the majority of games.