Absolutely, his physical struggles are likely down to his age. But surely him trying to play loads of minutes at League 1 is better than another season of very occasional appearances due to the injuries of others?

We are in a strange position with him. Hyam is a guaranteed choice, and with the lack of experience, seemingly the intention to go for an experienced CB makes sense. What I think would be worst for him is to be 4th or 5th choice here next season. Not sure he is better than Carter and maybe Wharton now, but seems to have far more potential long term. He also struggles to finish games physically, often going off with cramp. I think regular football at League 1 level would be ideal to help him to come to terms with regular 90 minutes of football. You also have the fact that he only has 2 years on his contract.

I do hope that Leicester go for Gerrard. Usually, at least one of the relegated sides struggles to adapt and thrive when they come down. Appointing a poor manager will only increase that chance.

So had we won every game after that, we would have still needed a considerable goal difference swing. Of course that assumes that Sheff United wouldnt have lost more points due to us winning every week, but Boro were basically doing that and they still didnt crumble. Either way, miles off.

22 points off. We was nowhere near. No missed signing in January would have got us into the top 2, we had 43 points after 28 games, it would have taken a further 16 wins and 1 draw from 18 games to make it. And as mentioned, you often find the top teams putting their foot on the gas towards the end, consistently racking up wins.

Supposedly in the 21/22 season.

Urgh, negative or defeatist. Im just being what I think is realistic. To finish top 2, you have to be brilliantly consistent. We were over 20 points away last year, before losing our only goalscorer and having no money to replace him. Conversely, top 6 is a different conversation. So many sides with similar resources have got there. We should think big but we havent since Venkys came.

He probably is in the Premier League in my opinion, not based on stats. I have never said he isnt very good. Just not elite.

Rich Sharpe reckons its to do with the rent on it.

Automatic promotion? You really think that is possible? You have to be ruthlessly clinical, get at least in the high 80s in points, sometimes in the 90s. For context, we finished 22 points behind last season, and have since lost our only source of goals and have been told that we are reliant on frees and loans. Plus 3 big clubs have come down. Play offs? Definitely much more feasible, you need 70 or maybe a bit more to get in, you can afford the odd stutter in form, teams with low budgets regularly get in, Luton, Coventry, Swansea, a recently promoted and Mowbray managed Sunderland and bloody Barnsley. And its easier to come up with things to cling on to, if he stays maybe Tomasson can learn from some mistakes he made, maybe many of our players who only performed for at most half a season can really kick on and have a full season (A Wharton, Carter, Szmodics, Rankin Costello) and maybe some of our under performers from last season can do better, people like Buckley, Travis and Dolan. Maybe Ennis can provide something we didnt have last season, maybe we can bring in good loans rather than shit ones, maybe we can bring in a set piece taker, maybe we can bring in a couple of useful frees. All that cobbled together may offset the losses from the squad and we could get 70 points or above, but it seems impossible to get top 2.

I agree with your last comment.

No I stand by that he is average (relative to better players of course) on the ball and struggles to control a game. But he is still a very good player and excellent physically and at reading the play to win the ball back. He would also be missed in a side if he was missing. It isn't based on stats either. I just feel like being unable to control a game compares unfavourably to players who play the same position at the top level and would mean in the very few elite teams he wouldnt necessarily be a starter. But of course he can do some things extremely well and would get in the vast, vast majority of teams.

Its just the side of the game that I think that prevents him from being right up there with anyone in the world, his use of the ball. Seen it with England and West Ham including the other night. Even the likes of Makelele, Keane, Rodri etc were much better on the ball. I still think he is a very good player. I don't think he is good at breaking up play, he is excellent at it. There is nothing wrong with being a water carrier and indeed I was just speculating as to which top club he would fit into and how would be best to use him. I don't think he would get into the City side for example. If say he went to Real Madrid, they have players like Modric and Kroos who usually play ahead of a sitter. Would he be better sat behind where I do think deeper, it allows him to use his excellent ability to snuff out danger and read the game? Or would his limitations on the ball (that is relative, he is not terrible on it, just not really the type to control a game) cause issues moving the ball on, receiving it on the half turn? On the flip side, have a Modric sitting and have him as a box to box midfielder, runs all day but would he do enough going forward, and would it somewhat waste his defensive ability to read danger? The value aspect is a different argument, if I was a big club I would be wary purely based on his expected cost. He would certainly add something to the vast majority of teams.

I didn't realise that defensive/deeper lyong midfielders couldn't dictate games. In fact they are often are the ones that do, sitting back setting the tempo. Pirlo, Busquets, Alonso, Xavi, Rodri, Keane, Tugay, Scholes later in his career, the list goes on. The games played at their pace. Rice is a different type of player and very good at what he does, point being, yesterday he struggled to get a grip and not against elite opponents, Amrabat ran the show. Can Rice play for a bigger team? Of course, but I think he falls short of the very best because he is decent on the ball, but he is not going to dictate a game. At the top level with England against the best teams, he is effective at stemming the tide but he won't run the show and we have come up short because we never have those players. Even Bellingham (a much more rounded player) is more attacking. The perfect player to accompany the pair would be a Scholes. His next move is an interesting one. His price tag is likely to be extortionate. I don't think he would get a move to a team like City, Barca or Real Madrid because he is not quite at the same level, if he did move there, I think he would need to just be a water carrier for their better players and maybe even play slightly further up the pitch. Liverpool would suit based on a Klopp ideal team but I doubt they could afford him. Arsenal maybe, but I think they lack a quality player to dictate the game, unless you got him doing Jorginho's running. Or maybe a Bayern although the league is slightly less quality, its just on that very top stage say in a Champions League knockout game, is he quite there?

Could Roy Keane not dictate games?

I get why from a tradition point of view, but I do think you would dilute the quality by only having Champions in. For example, next season, you would be taking out Real and Atletico Madrid, Arsenal, Man United, Newcastle, both Milan clubs etc.

My point was that Rice isn't technically good enough to dictate games. He doesn't for club or country and he isn't one of the very best. Still a very good player but not up there with the Rodri's of this world.

We won promotion by 9 points and 20 higher goal difference to be fair, I am not sure that it was as decisive as it seemed.

If I recall correctly, Italy totally dominated after the early goal and we barely had a kick. I certainly don't think that Rice "bossed the midfield." Very true if you are looking for value. Amrabat was great in the World Cup and is better on the ball than Rice, and likely to be much cheaper. Of course Rice is an overall more attractive package, but not sure he could dictate in the same way. Bonaventura was also superb further forward and Fiorentina totally dominated without having much in attack. I don't ever see Rice becoming a player that can dictate the player, his strengths lie elsewhere. He can definitely play further up, but the question comes from the inevitable massive price tag. I doubt that Liverpool could afford him but if they want to revert to high intensity, he would fit that more than City where he couldn't do what Rodri does and would spend all season next to Phillips sat on his arse. @Hasta got it right with his summary. I also felt that Fiorentina dominated, it was a bit of a smash and grab with Fiorentina not creating enough. Rice underwhelmed and lost the ball a few times, for me the stand out light is Paqueta who set up the goal, brilliant technician.

Is Rice is a dribbler? I meant in terms of controlling possession, last night was a perfect example, he struggled in that regard. He is average in terms of passing and thats what I think he would struggle with if he went to a really big team. Don't get me wrong, he is a very good player. Very good at winning the ball back, his defensive awareness, his energy. On the ball, average. I think his strengths lie as a defensive midfielder, same point to @chaddyrovers obviously all of those midfielders are holding midfielders, I am not convinced that he would thrive as a box to box midfielder.

He definitely isnt better in possession than Rodri! Rodri is excellent on the ball.

He is a defensive player, he has a good engine and reads the game really well out of possession. Can't dictate a game, isn't anything special in possession and as a box to box he doesn't offer much going forward, he seldom scores for a start. If I was a big club I would be wary because he will likely cost above market value due to being English. He isn't quite up to the level of the likes of Rodri, Casemiro and Guimares. Still a very good player all the same.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/birmingham-jude-bellingham-realmadrid-transfer-30177174 Says £11m here.

Is Declan Rice really a world class holding midfielder? Very good player no doubt, and quite well rounded, but not sure he is good enough on the ball or able to control games at the top level.

Probably unlikely to find that resolution in the season ticket thread.