It was more just a general point about an issue I have with the effectiveness of our current set up. Notably that we presumably play direct, low risk, percentage football with onus on 2 players to get our goals in order to make us solid and hard to beat. The stats prove that they arent doing that at the moment. I feel like both Mowbray tactically and also the individuals themselves, notably Armstrong, Bennett, Palmer, Rothwell etc share the blame for the lack of goals from other areas.

I would like to think that Mowbray isnt necessarily as black and white as that in terms of goalscoring responsibilities. Sadly, im not too sure. I know you will perceive this as me having an agenda etc against Bennett, but I don't believe that you can play wide men that aren't at least partially judged on their contributions to goals. That is as much a criticism of our tactics as much as anything else. Most teams are mostly reliant on their strikeforce for goals but ours, in addition to direct set pieces from our centre back, we are in my opinion far, far too reliant on them. Presumably the reason that we adopt such direct tactics, reliant on knock downs and the front 2 getting all of the goals are mainly geared towards being hard to beat and organised. Considering that only 5 teams have conceded more goals than us, added to our rotten recent form, and surely its time for a re-think!

Going off on a tangent, I have never seen anyone doubt Bennett's work rate, effort or integrity. That being said, that should not be enough to warrant selection alone. We are no longer going through a spell whereby commitment is what we are crying out for. The point in bold does you no favours. I do appreciate Bennett's qualities, and possibly would bring him back into the team when fit again. But theres a middle ground between taking 4 players on and scoring, and simply giving 100%. Giving 100% should be the very minimum anyone can offer, and I dont suspect that any of our players are not giving there all. If thats all we are asking though to get into our team, then there are issues. I have often questioned Bennetts attacking output, ie his lack of goals and assists, and I stand by that over the last year and a half, he hasnt contributed enough to goals. He shouldnt be beyond such conversation solely based on his desire.

Ive not seen many hold the relegation against Mowbray (the fanbase was mainly in approval of him staying on) but no matter how you sugar coat it, the season he came in, his first brief was to keep us up and he failed. Talk about extrapolating his results is worthless, against mainly teams that had nothing to play for. Survival was always a difficult target but one that could have been achieved with one more point. Luckily for us all he did enough to convince us and the owners amidst failure that he was the man to take us into League 1. It was his work last season that has given him a place in Rovers fans hearts. For the record I dont want Mowbray sacked. But I think many have chose to underestimate and downplay their expectations. Our wage bill is 10th to 16th so we are within the range we should be, not taking into account the very generous budget he had on transfer fees which brings up big, big questions. Anyone who mentions survival as the aim is being very unambitious to say the least. You touch upon the key area where Mowbray perhaps has come or may come unstuck and that is in his recruitment. He often talks about x number of windows but based on previous windows, is that going to work as well as he thinks it will? Hes shown no real signs of developing towards the style of play he often talks about and presumably the style to which he intended to use his new signings in, leaving them kicking their heels on the sidelines. Ive always held question marks about him in terms of his recruitment. Overall, and especially this summer, its been poor. Hes totally ignored the foreign market for whatever reason. The Dack deal is very much the exception in terms of recruiting to develop. I feel like his strengths have been what he has got from predominantly the players he inherited and also the team spirit he has managed to consistently foster. We will need more than that as the windows and the seasons move on.

I suspect that it might be Armstrong and Dack both off Graham, rather than Armstrong alongside Graham. Thats how it has been in the past anyway.

Found these comments interesting: https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/17318168.brereton-not-suffering-from-confidence-dip-says-mowbray/ "Danny is an important player for our team,” Mowbray said. “We’re not a possession based, keep the ball, 50 passes team. We know how we play, we try and play in the opposition half as much as we can. “Danny is a big part of that.” Mowbray has preached about changing to a more aesthetically pleasing passing style numerous times. That quote suggests that the direct, unimaginative and often ineffective style that we currently adopt is not going to change any time soon. I dont think there is a right way or a wrong way of playing but I do think that the current way is predictable and it perhaps highlights the deficiencies of our summer recruitment that most of his signings are kicking their heels on the sidelines whilst the adaptation to a style of play Mowbray clearly wants is put on hold.

Your wage figures are total guesses. I am willing to agree that he will be on a less wage than the likes of Bamford and Grabban. But I find it baffling that a player who cost an initial fee of probably close to the combined fees paid for various players since the summer we signed Rhodes and Best is not a risk in your eyes. It IS a big transfer fee. The main point that I have been making is that thus far, I have not seen any potential that has made me think there is a player there to be had if he develops over time. He does have time but from what I have seen, there is no element of his game that strikes me as having potential. To be fair youve even acknowledged that it hasnt worked out on the pitch thus far. As I said above I totally appreciate the notion of signing players to profit on. Bar Dack, I believe that the other signings he has made under that criteria would either incur a loss or at best breaking even but you arent appreciating that all of them deals combined didnt cost as much as Brereton. To answer your questions, A is a no and C at the moment looks like a no.

I dont think there is a magic number in regards to % of experience v youth, but I do totally empathise with a model of signing predominantly younger players to develop. I do think however that its not as black and white as that, in that each signing or "investment" has to be judged on the merits of that individual player, something which at times many of those defending Brereton have failed to do. Yes I understand signing younger players to develop, thats not the issue I have with him. Dack is very much a perfect example of such a policy. Signed for less than a million with a promising reputation, now his value has multiplied many times over. Also with a nod to the experience left in the side, he is tangibly benifitting from having Graham alongside him. I sadly do think that he is the only one thus far that shows strong signs of potentially reaping a profit. Mowbray could argue that Dack alone would cover the cost of the rest of his "projects" but I still would argue that the recruitment has been poor on that front. In terms of any of his other signings under the idea of a project, how many of them have shown that we can profit from them? From last season, he signed Bell who has not developed and I would suggest we would be lucky to recoup the fee we paid for him. Samuel like Bell had raw phsyciality on his side but last season at a lower level he failed to justify his 500k price tag and I suspect we wouldnt have recouped that even prior to his injury. Nuttall would be a maybe having been picked up for free but any fee would be nominal. Moving on to this season and Davenport and Rothwell had all the hallmarks of potentially profitable assets, Davenports passing range and Rothwells ability to beat players, coupled with fees of below half a million suggested that they were low risk and high reward signings. Davenports not kicked a ball yet and Rothwell has been for some reason totally ignored really. You then look at Armstrong, and he seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis and there arent signs that hes developed since we bought him outright. Brereton in terms of cost is a massive, massive investment, regardless of how much @Biz tries to downplay the finances. All of the other deals I have mentioned have been at a fraction of the Brereton fee. The low risk element of all of the other deals is eliminated when you spend 7m. And most worryingly, I saw something in all of the other players that made me think, "I understand what he is, I can see an obvious strength to his game that could be nurtured" even if it hasnt worked out like that. Bell, Armstrong and Samuel have pace, Rothwell an ability to run at players, Nuttall an ability to score goals, Davenport a passing range. Dont see anything from Brereton as of yet. I do think signing younger players in the main is a healthy philosophy to have but we need to be more successful in terms of both finding and then developing those players once they sign. I do think that bar Dack, the 3 players that have developed the most under Mowbray have been Nyambe, Raya and Lenihan. All 3 make their share of mistakes but all 3 have an obvious talent. All whose time at the club precedes Mowbrays time here.

Mowbray has often stated that he strives for a scenario where its a struggle to name an 18 and leave a few players out. A matchday squad isnt an open and shut case and injuries/poor performance by others will inevitably open the door for him again sooner rather than later. I personally would have Palmer on the bench, and Brereton would be removed in favour of Nuttall. Yes Gladwin has been a poor signing, and we all hope (contrary to some) that Brereton turns into anything but. All I am saying is we can only judge Brereton on 4/5 months and thus far I don't see any signs, any glimmers, any raw attributes that could develop into him

I am basing my judgements on him based on his appearances in a Rovers shirt. The only time I remember watching him prior to joining was against Arsenal when he put in a superb performance. Why do you keep obsessing about training performances? As much as training is obviously critically important, if a player is unable to have an impact on game then his training performances become irrelevant. We are in an internet messageboard, we dont live in a hypothetical world where we see everything that happens in training and behind the scenes. If for some reason you was picking the team for Leeds away, would you include Kasey Palmer in the matchday squad? Who said we need to "bin them off?" Take the Brereton situation, hes not a impressing when hes brought on, now I am unconvinced by Joe Nuttall in general but considering his recent hot streak in the reserves, and he has shown that whilst his game is definitely raw, he definitely at least possesses the ability to sniff out a chance and take it. Brereton has had plenty of chances off the bench and not suggested that he warrants further ones any more than Nuttall does, I think you could argue, at this moment in time. My judgement on Gladwin was nothing to do with the "tattoos and pints stories" that you reference on here. He looked really poor even aside from the Plymouth miss that I presume that you are referring to.

Of course I am basing my opinion on his time in a Rovers shirt, what else would I judge him on?! I know he is 19, that would justify a rawness to his game, occasional poor decisions, inconsistency. Patience doesnt mean not passing comment on him at all until he reaches a certain age. I don't see any element in his game based on his appearances thus far that makes me think "hes young but he could develop into a good player." He is weak and lacks the ability to hold the ball up, sure he could bulk up in the gym. I was under the impression that he has a bit of pace and could run at players, I've yet to see it at all. There were 2 or 3 times today alone were he tried taking people on and lacked the acceleration to do so. His first touch is shocking and hes incredibly clumsy and cumbersome. He frequently shows a lack of intelligence and understanding both on and off the ball. And his lack of goal threat is given further context when you see his record at Forest. In fact the only 2 things that give me any blind faith are ironically his price tag as well as his reputation. I'm not asking for or expecting the final product or the fully developed player at 19. I expect a rawness, I expect inconsistencies, I expect drops in form, I just want something to say yeah we have a potentially good player here. Its not arrogance to have an opinion contrary to that of the manager, regardless of what he sees in training, and regardless of the fact that hes obviously a manager and we are not. The only time it matters is on a match day when we both see as much as Mowbray does. Gladwin was apparently the best player in training according to Mowbray but on the pitch he was as useful as a dustbin. I think highly of the manager too, but I come on an internet messageboard to see a variety of opinions, just because Mowbray has done a good job doesnt make his judgement perfect or his decision making beyond reproach. If you think Palmer is lazy and clueless, why do you not question his inclusion in the squad? Do you not trust your own judgement and vision? Such a strange thing to say.

But recently he has often come on more centrally. He came on against Birmingham centrally and was equally poor. Hes not showing any attributes to suggest that he could be effective in either position. Absolutely right. Many defend Brereton on the fact that his price tag is too much of a factor in peoples judgements, when it could be argued that its the only thing that keeps him in the 18. Celina is a number 10. The fact that we apparently wanted him is further indicative of Mowbrays bizarre mindset of playing anyone wide bar actual natural wide men. There are 2 elements to your implication that the fans are causing (partially or fully) his lack of confidence and as a result, his poor performances. When he came on, his name was cheered. What we put on a messageboard, on social media or discuss to our friend next to us is totally irrelevant, he is oblivious to that. In terms of a few groans when he messed up or misplaced another pass, thats a natural instinct and reaction, you cant try to stop or blame that. Just as if we score the fans naturally cheer, if anyone messes up, theres a natural frustration. You need people to be brave enough and to have a thick enough skin to carry on asking for the ball. If he lacks that then he needs to be taken out of the matchday squad and out of the firing line. Patience is only warranted surely if a player is showcasing even glimmers of any attributes that could be developed or enhanced (of course baring in mind his age) to make a good player for us. What is Brereton showing? He's not fast. He's weak and flimsy. He cant hold the ball up. He isnt a goal threat, nor does his Forest record suggest he was anyway. He doesnt showcase intelligence in terms of movement or in terms of decision making. He hasnt got a good first touch. What does he do to even warrant a place in the matchday squad at the moment.

Same old story, throwing away points late on with Mowbray banging on about missed opportunities and moving on to the next game. We have very much sleepwalked into mid table mediocrity and are no longer above expectations. I would find it very difficult to empathise with anyone who feels that Mowbrays recruitment over the summer has (bar Reed, temporarily) improved us or developed the team in any way. Thought it was a scrappy and at many points even game but football is often in the small details and we seem too often to be on the wrong side of them and thats no coincedence. Graham was again absolutely outstanding, his ability to make the most aimless punt upfield into an attack is absolutely text book. Which brings me on to Brereton. He shouldnt play wide but he was absolutely hapless in general when he came on. Fed up of all the platitudes about patience, backing, bla bla bla, we can base our opinions on what weve seen, and understand hes young and raw but what can we build on? I see absolutely nothing. He's not fast, hes as weak as a kitten, his first touch makes Lukaku's look expert, and he has a blatant lack of footballing intelligence. A good example would be when him and Graham were breaking on 2 defenders and he instantly kicked the ball at Grahams heels. His movement is poor too. He isnt warranting a place in the 18 at the moment. Evans was decent up until his injury, as was Reed, Smallwood however should never be guaranteed a spot. His lack of passing ability coupled with his irresponsible need to slide so much and be continuously walking a tightrope in terms of his discipline means he should be no more than a squad player, Bell was much improved I thought, bar the odd mistake in possession. Nyambe kept getting forward but his carbon copy instance of being caught out by the same ball as last week is unforgivable really. Dont make the same mistake twice. Lenihan I thought was pretty good again bar some occasional incompetence on the ball, hope Mulgrew is fine for boxing day. Armstrong is never a Championship wide man, Palmer was mixed, he gives us something we lack in terms of a bit more daring and a bit of desire to get on the ball, and he did make an effort to win the ball back, but hes never a wide man either and he can be incredibly lax and indecisive. Dack was very quiet. And what does Rothwell need to do to get a chance? Mowbray, weve won 1 in 7 and hit a bit of a brick wall. Our defence is leaky and our attack is lacking in ideas and totally reliant on Dack and Graham. Its time to move away from the same ideas that are going stale, its time to bring in more of YOUR signings, to stop being blindly loyal to the same underperforming players (Armstrong and Smallwood being 2 examples) and its time to stop the rut.

He is here permanently, he has signed long term, the only reason your mindset could apply is if there was any doubt that it would become permanent afterwards,

The loan spell is a technicality and nothing more. The only reason he is on loan was to allow the deal to go through outside the transfer window, but he signed on a permanent deal straight away for all intents and purposes. It would make no sense to consider the period in which he was on loan as any different from when his permanent contract commences. Im not saying there shouldnt be an element of bedding in, just that the fact that hes technically on loan initially shouldnt make a blind bit of difference.

Absence maybe doesnt make the heart grow fonder, but seemingly youve forgotten how awful he was in the games he played last year, thats before the setback of being out injured for more than a season, very much justifying the ridicule from QPR fans upon arrival. I suspect that Gladwin will never play for us again and I am very happy with that. Hes not good enough, and he never will be good enough. 17 in 76 goals in the Championship in the last 2 years isnt the best. All being said, I hope our scouting isnt limited to former players. I dont think a striker should be priority number 1 anyway to be honest.

Its not hate. Gallagher was weak and incapable of holding the ball up, especially as a lone striker. It wouldnt make any sense to sign him on a temporary deal, his goal record in the Championship is very underwhelming and hes not played all season. Id suggest he is pretty similar in style to Brereton, tall, lanky, not the strongest, and fairly quick. Neither have particularly impressive goal records as of yet. It would bring the signing of Brereton into further disrepute if we signed Gallagher on loan and he played at the expense of our own player whose development would be further stunted. It would also show a lack of imagination in the transfer market to sign them 2. We dont need more impact subs in wide areas, we need a first team one.

Raya Nyambe Lenihan Mulgrew Williams Rodwell Evans Reed Dack Rothwell Graham Subs: Leutweiler, Downing, Travis Smallwood, Brereton, Armstrong, Palmer

How can you say its exceptional business? 3 goals between 4 attacking players with a combined cost of close to 10m suggests theyve yet to have a significant impact. Not denying their talent but theres no way you can say theyve been exceptional pieces of business at this point in time. If you said "theyve yet to really have an impact but I believe they will in time" then that would be much fairer. Your figures for Bamford and in particular Celina are total guesses. Swansea spent a small fraction of their incomings and have relied a lot on youth so I am skeptical of your assumption that they are spending loads more than we could afford. Armstrong has been nowhere near as effective as he was last year in League 1, theres no way you can suggest otherwise. I have never suggested that we arent playing Brereton due to the managers disgruntlement over signings above his head, contractual reasons, any of that. I am basing him solely on footballing matters. I also do agree in theory with mainly signing younger players to develop. But we are judging them as individuals. I feel like you are overestimating their youth and portraying them as being less ready than they are. Rodwell and Palmer are only here for a year so any impact needs to be this season. Rothwell and Brereton have played enough at previous clubs to make Mowbray interested in the first place. Much of your argument is based around totally hypothetical figures, the difficulty of signing players in general and an underestimation of the fact that we do offer competitive wages at this level. Not with Villa, Stoke etc but 10th-16th as Waggott said. You are seemingly reluctant to admit that the signings bar Reed have had a significant impact thus far, calling them exceptional is presumably not at all based on what they have shown in a Rovers shirt. We made numerous signings for a lot of money combined to improve our squad, in particular going forward, with Mowbray often talking about making us play more attractive, passing football. At the moment, our team is the most direct in the league statistically, and for goals we are almost totally reliant on the Graham and Dack partnership we had last season, or Mulgrew set pieces. Beyond that our few goalscorers are on 1s and 2s. As it stands the new signings have not developed our team in the way we may have hoped, not that they may not in the future, fans are perhaps slightly frustrated not to see more of them, and as a result to describe the business as exceptional.

I still dont understand how you gave the signing of Brereron an 8 out of 10 judgement the other week. May I ask what you have seen to justify that? Theres no way that its been in a Rovers shirt, in the main hes done very little in his cameos. His price tag is a double edged sword, people are very protective of not over burdening him because of it but I think that the price tag is the only evidence we have that he has the ability to really make a name for himself at the moment, and if he had signed for 700k, based on his uneventful cameos and his goal record prior I dont think anyone would bat an eyelid if he was left out of the 18, and people as with Nuttall may have queried whether in fact a loan to the lower leagues is the best bet for him. Its perfectly reasonable to suggest, not that its easy to sign players, but that with the budget Mowbray had, no matter how much you seem to downplay it, you would hope we would have been able to improve our team more than we have. Waggott confirmed that we are mid table in terms of wage budget and for some reason youve assumed that Brereton has come in on a pittance, and also shoot down any suggestions that we could have signed someone to have more of an impact or to provide actual competition for Graham. Your primary argument is to guess that any alternatives will be on wages far too high for us. The "I hate Tony comment" is laughable. No one hates him, but hes not beyond reproach in terms of judgement over signings. Only one of his signings has had a positive, consistent impact on the team AS OF YET, and thats Reed. Armstrong has played regularly but in the main looks poor at Championship level, and none of the other 5 have managed to really come close to establishing themselves in the side. It is a very commonly held wise idea to sign younger players to develop, I dont think many would disagree with the concept in general. At this moment in time though, weve yet to see much to suggest that he could be an asset to profit on. We all hope he makes more of an impact but so far hes not had one.

I felt last year that although he did score a couple of goals, Nuttall in the main did appear quite a bit off in terms of physicality and knowing how to play that role as striker, and that was in League 1. If he came into the side this year he would look equally as inadequate especially as a sub for Graham. You say he can do no more than he is doing, but from the sound of it his recent purple patch comes off the back of a poor run due to the players attitude. Due to the finance committed to the deal, Mowbray will have to somewhat perservere with Brereton, who already has a couple of seasons of experience at this level. I dont feel like Nuttall is capable of backing Graham up yet and is definitely shy of a loan deal to get him used to League football. The choice of club is critical to his development, even if it means going down to League 2 he needs to be playing every week.

Rodwell is never a centre back in a million years so I disagree. Im not convinced, wonder if theres an element of lazy journalism assuming we will re-sign players we have had in the past. 4-3-3 would mean Dack wouldnt be in the side so no to that, we cannot break up or interfere with the Graham and Dack partnership. I dont think that there is a problem with playing 4-2-3-1 and it certainly doesnt have to incorporate the current direct, long ball, percentage based football that we currently play. We just need to make sure that we upgrade upon some of the players down the sides, ie at full back and out wide. Mowbray also needs to trust and get the most out of his summer signings, notably moving Reed central, playing Rodwell more often (solely as a midfielder) and also by giving Palmer and in particular Rothwell more of a chance, especially to nail down the left of the 3 behind Graham. A direct right winger for the other side as a starter and that would have the potential to be much more threatening.

Not for me at all. Firstly, every time weve played 3 at the back before, its not worked. Furthermore, any formation with Rodwell in defence and Bell in the team is a firm no from me! Bennett isnt a wing back either. I also think them 3 signings would be underwhelming and show a total lack of imagination from the scouting system and from Mowbray. We need a winger to come into the team, not onto the bench as Mowbray has stated he would before, plus his injuries make him a no go from me. Gallagher I dont rate, hes not strong enough to be a focal point and it would bring the Brereton signing into even more disrepute to bring in another lanky, flimsy, lightweight striker on a loan deal to go ahead of Brereton in the pecking order. Bauer has spent a lot of the season injured.

I dont think he has hardly if ever played 3-5-2 has he? When he played 3 at the back we tended to play 2 off Graham, i recall the 2 being Dack and Armstrong against Bury for example. I think we could play the trio you suggested in the formation we already play. Either way, our weakness at the moment lies wide. Our full backs are weaknesses and our wide men dont contribute enough. Our full backs are either very conservative ie Nyambe and Williams or just shite ie Bell. Please can we stop with the infactual comments implying that we are minnow in this league. https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/16986757.were-mid-table-for-wages-rovers-ceo-waggott/ “I would think we’re probably, league wise, 10th to 16th in terms of wage bills from talking to other clubs." So thats from Waggotts mouth, and we are currently 12th. Factor in a net spend of what must be close to if not 8 figures and the poverty line becomes a bit worthless. We are this season about where we should be I would suggest. He failed his first (difficult task) to keep us up but he did very well to "turn us around" last season and get us back into this league. He has overall done a good job, thats for sure. But lets not pretend where we are in the table is a miraculous achievement.

I thought that Graham was our best player on Saturday yet again. The first thing that we need to bare in mind is the supply and style of play that we adopt is not one that favours our attackers, and whoever is up there is going to be feeding off scraps. For all this talk about "The Mowbray Way," we play the most long balls in the league, very much play the percentages and it can be a hard watch to be honest, and I bet its even harder to be a striker in. Graham is the master at holding the ball up with very poor service. He wins headers v taller centre backs, hes clever in terms of giving the defender a slight nudge on the blind side of the ref to gain an advantage, hes the only player on the same wavelength as Dack and the pair of them are scoring goals with regularity in a side thats anything but creative. We look far more threatening during intermittent bursts of pressing, winning the ball back high and playing a few one touch passes at speed but it is all too infrequent. The main difference when Brereton comes on is that his first touch is notably worse and invariably loses possession. He also failed to even challenge on more than one occasion in the air which caused frustration. Other than that, agree with your points regarding the psychology of the team and also Mowbray being too loyal to Smallwood in particular at the expense of any control in the game. If Reed is needed wide right to cover up deficiencies in Mowbrays summer recruitment, which is galling in itself, then I think Rodwell should play alongside Evans to give us a bit more control in there. I dont think Smallwood played a successful pass in the first half and at one stage he was tackled by the wind.