[Archived] A Quick Question...

[bob fleming]

Hopefully someone can help.

What numbers did these guys have on the back of their shirts?

Thanks

[cletus]

Are we going for a 'retro homage' shirt name & number, Mr Fleming?

Always wanted a 10 Garner shirt......

[Fife Rover]

Hopefully someone can help.

What numbers did these guys have on the back of their shirts?

Thanks

Clayton had No. 4 as usual for a Right Half, and Duggie had No. 7 when he was playing Outside Right, and No. 10 when he played Inside Left. In those days players did not have squad numbers as they do today. The number on the shirt was fixed by the position they were playing.

Goalkeepers were nominally No. 1, but usually had no number on their shirt.

Right Back was No.2, Left Back No.3.

Right Half No. 4, Centre Half No. 5, Left Half No. 6

Outside Right No.7, Inside Right No. 8, Centre Forward No. 9, Inside Left No. 10, Outside Left No.11.

Apologies to those who already know all this, but you did ask.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Fife Rover

[jrabrfc]

According to Mike Jackman's book, Blackburn Rovers - A Complete Record, Clayton wore the number 4 while Douglas wore the number 10 shirt.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Jrabrfc, I thought Fife Rovers answer was pretty clear but let me repeat it- When Ronnie played Right Half which he usually did, he wore the no.4, but he also played Left Half ( no 6) and Centre Half ( no 5). Dougie usually played either Right Wing (no 7) or latterly Inside Left ( no 10). However I've seen him play in no 8 and no 11, also I read somewhere he once wore no9.

[bob fleming]

Many thanks for the replies chaps.

[broadsword]

Duggie had his home phone number on the back as he could never remember it, and Ron had pi to 9 figures on his as he was always getting asked by school kids and it was always tripping him up.

[bob fleming]

That's what I'd originally heard Bryan. Did Duggie have the 0254 number on as well? Clayton was known to hate maths, and for good reason. School kids could really mix it in those days when it came to random pi questions. "Excuse me Mr Clayton, I know you're Captain of England but could you show me a simple method to calculate pi accurately to an arbitrary number of digits?" It wouldn't happen these days of course, which is probably a good thng.

Having said all that I think I'll just go with the "4" and "10" answers.

[jim mk2]

.

Having said all that I think I'll just go with the "4" and "10" answers.

Clayton certainly wore 4 for most of his career but Douglas only wore 10 in his latter years when he moved to inside left (attacking midfield in modern parlance). He is better remembered as an outstanding right winger for Rovers and England so his number should be 7.

[Al]

Absolutely correct Jim. You need to listen to the guys who had the privilege of watching them play lads.

[bob fleming]

Thanks Al, Jim. Yes, you're right we do need to listen to the guys who were fortunate enough to watch them play and that's why I asked the question; of anyone who saw them play and would therefore know the answer. My powers of deduction tell me that the pi and phone number stuff was just a gag.

So in summary: Ronnie Clayton 4. Bryan Douglas 7 (although he did also wear 10 but that was at the end of his playing career).

Cheers

[den]

So in summary: Ronnie Clayton 4. Bryan Douglas 7 (although he did also wear 10 but that was at the end of his playing career).

Cheers

I wouldn't say it was just at the end of his playing career. I watched Duggie [the best rovers player I ever saw], from 1962 onwards and he always wore No 10 from then on. Did he retire in '66/67? Not sure.

[Hullrover]

Clayton wore the no 4 for every match including the FA Cup for two consecutive seasons (54/55 and 55/56).

Douglas wore no 10 for the whole of 64/65 without missing a match.

Both players also wore no 12 as unused subs in their final season.

[Fife Rover]

I cant remember exactly when Duggie changed from playing OR to IL but I was around at the time it happened which makes it post-55 ( when I left the Navy). I have a feeling it was early 60's because he was still OR when we won promotion at Charlton in 1958 (that was the most exciting match I have EVER witnessed) so I would guess it was about 1960 when he was initially tried out at IL to cover a crisis when Vernon was not available and was an immediate success in that position also. He continued as OR both for Rovers and England probably until Vernon left for Everton in 1960. Sorry I cant be more specific; perhaps another old timer can fill in the gaps in my memory.

Or better still why not ask the man himself. He and Ronnie still attend every Rovers home match and have seats in the JW Central.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Fife Rover

[whittle blue]

I wouldn't say it was just at the end of his playing career. I watched Duggie [the best rovers player I ever saw], from 1962 onwards and he always wore No 10 from then on. Did he retire in '66/67? Not sure.

He retired from Rovers at the end of 68-69 season, Den.

However,66-67 was the last seaon where he had a "proper" season.

He only played a handful of games over the final two seasons, because of injury which ultimately finished his career at top level.

[Claytons Left Boot]

..... when we won promotion at Charlton in 1958 (that was the most exciting match I have EVER witnessed).....

Fife - How about you including this as a feature in the Heaven, I'm In Heaven section? I know what happened that day but it would be great getting an eye witness account including numbers of Rovers fans, atmosphere, build up to the game, what you did after, etc etc!

[Fife Rover]

Fife - How about you including this as a feature in the Heaven, I'm In Heaven section? I know what happened that day but it would be great getting an eye witness account including numbers of Rovers fans, atmosphere, build up to the game, what you did after, etc etc!

OK you're on! I will give it a go. I know that Mike Jackman has summarised this momentous occasion in his Essential History Of Blackburn Rovers, but I will try to give you my personal impressions and feelings starting from the approach to the match in London, the build-up before, the feelings during the match, and all the rest of it, including the celebrations up the West End afterwards.Just give me a day or so to get it together and I will post it in the Heaven section as you suggested.

[T4E]

Can one of you dinosaurs translate those words into positions in a sketch for us all? I'm thinking in the way that a formation appears in the Transfer Rumours Thread every 4th post, usually containing Juan Pablo Sorin at right back....

Would be interesting to see exactly where an "Inside Left" played!

[den]

Can one of you dinosaurs translate those words into positions in a sketch for us all? I'm thinking in the way that a formation appears in the Transfer Rumours Thread every 4th post, usually containing Juan Pablo Sorin at right back....

Would be interesting to see exactly where an "Inside Left" played!

Dinosaur calling Tugay, - Dinosaur calling Tugay.

Righty-ho. The forwards used to play in the "W" formation. [don't know if this will work.]

Left winger[MGP]----------------------Centre Forward[Jason Roberts]---------------------------Right Winger[super Brett]

---------------Inside Left[benni]----------------------Inside Right[steven Reid/Bentley]

NB: Forwards weren't expected to defend and defenders weren't expected to attack - ever. Full backs didn't go over the half way line, they were only expected to "stop" the winger. Nothing else mattered.

Wingers were allowed to idle their time away on the half way line, even when the team were 7-0 down. Keepers were allowed to bounce the ball around their area, for ever. Keepers could be hammered into the back of the net, with or without the ball - they were fair game. Centre halves were generally left to their own ends.

[T4E]

So how do the Left Half and Right Half fit in to the defence? 5 across the back in one line?

Right Back ---------- Right Half ---------- Centre Half ---------- Left Half ---------- Left Back

?

Edited August 17, 2006 by Tugay4England

[Fife Rover]

Can one of you dinosaurs translate those words into positions in a sketch for us all? I'm thinking in the way that a formation appears in the Transfer Rumours Thread every 4th post, usually containing Juan Pablo Sorin at right back....

Would be interesting to see exactly where an "Inside Left" played!

Now dont get cheeky young man! By the way isn't it past your bedtime?

HINT: If you lookat my first post on this topic ( near the top of this very page) you will see that I have actually listed all the team positions along with their corresponding numbers, in the formation that was always used for line-up at kickoff's.

However just to make it a little clearer: Teams always played in a 1; 2; 3; 5. formation, viz:

Goalkeeper (1)

Right Back.(2) Left Back(3)

Right Half (4) Centre Half (5) Left Half (6)

Outside Right (7) Inside Right (8) Centre Forward (9) Inside Left (10) Outside Left (11)

This type of lineup was used by all teams and of course gave a much greater emphasis on attack rather than defence, That is why football was more exciting to watch in those days and why there were far more high scoring matches than you get today.

EDIT: When I wrote all this stuff it was laid out symetrically and centre justified as the line-up actually looked. Unfortunately this so & so word processor won't allow it when you submit it and insists on left justifying every line. Sorry folks!

Edited August 17, 2006 by Fife Rover

[AussieinUk]

This type of lineup was used by all teams and of course gave a much greater emphasis on attack rather than defence, That is why football was more exciting to watch in those days and why there were far more high scoring matches than you get today.

I can't believe 5 played up front!

I would have thought more of a diamond formation from the 'Halfs' going forward.

Can I ask a silly question Fife or to any others (and apologies for being ignorant)? Did Manager's alter the tactical formations of teams during games or was this formation (1-2-3-5), pretty much it?

Edited August 17, 2006 by AussieinUk

[Fife Rover]

I can't believe 5 played up front!

I would have thought more of a diamond formation from the 'Halfs' going forward.

Can I ask a silly question Fife or to any others (and apologies for being ignorant)? Did Manager's alter the tactical formations of teams during games or was this formation (1-2-3-5), pretty much it?

No it's not a silly question at all. Unfortunately to answer it properly would take chapter in a decent sized book.

However I will attempt a very brief summary of the situation in general because there were many attempts by managers to apply tactical variations according to what they saw as the main threats from the opposition.

As I said in general the idea was for the two full backs to mark the opponents two wingers, the wing halves would mark the opponents two inside forwards, and the centre half would mark the opposing centre forward. That was the main strategy but in addition it was usual for the wing halves when their team was attacking to pick up the ball in the midfield areas and to supply both long and short passes to set up the forwards in an advantageous position much the same as we now expect our AMF players to do for the strikers.

As well as this the two inside forwards would often make runs to draw defenders or drop back into advanced midfield positions in order to either lure defenders out or to pick up the ball and use it creatively, The CF would usually be a fairly big guy with good heading ability and good shooting skills and would act much as a target man does today. He would also look to the Inside forwards to make runs into space in the area for him to lay the ball off to them and for them to strike for goal. The wingers were same as today; get down the wing and provide accurate crosses for the other forwards or attacking wing halves to benefit from.

I know that is an extremely condensed version of the general tactics and strategy as used in the "old days" but it is the best I can do at this time in the morning and my cocoa is getting cold.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Fife Rover

[den]

I can't believe 5 played up front!

Well if you look at rovers best ever forward line, it consisted of:

Ferguson, McEvoy, Pickering, Douglas, Harrison.

Every one of them an attacking forward. Not one of them capable of a single tackle.

That's how it was folks.

Fabulous to watch. Remember '63 season? Spurs beaten 7-2 at Ewood and West Ham beaten 8-2 at upton Park. Can't think of adjectives that fit the occassion. We wont see anything like that again.

[Fife Rover]

Well if you look at rovers best ever forward line, it consisted of:

Ferguson, McEvoy, Pickering, Douglas, Harrison.

Every one of them an attacking forward. Not one of them capable of a single tackle.

That's how it was folks.

Fabulous to watch. Remember '63 season? Spurs beaten 7-2 at Ewood and West Ham beaten 8-2 at upton Park. Can't think of adjectives that fit the occassion. We wont see anything like that again.

Sorry Den but I have to disagree with your choice of Rovers best 5 man forward line. Your choice was very good, but for me a better line was Douglas, Dobing, Dougan, Vernon, McLeod. That was very good indeed, as was Mooney,Crossan, Briggs, Quigley, Langton. Fabulous!!