[Archived] Rovers Young Guns

[laughatthedingles]

utter tripe.

The fact you use two provisos in your last sentence suggests your acting on either gossip or a lack of knowledge.

Think about this objectively for a moment. Tom was 15 year-old, and as you correctly state, played well in the under 18's.

His Dad left to join the rest of the Taffia.

Tom isn't at the Academy any more.

Now, do you want me to call in Poirot to investigate what's happened, or do you want another clue?

Okay, think back to when Steve Bruce was at Brum, and his son Alex captained both the FA Youth side and reserves in the same season. Think back to when Bruce was at Brockhall every Sat, Morecambe/Ewood for every reserve game, with his wife & daughter watching EVERY game. Then all of a sudden, Brum throw their toys out of pram about Bowen, then about Savage. Next thing, no Alex Bruce, he's left Rovers and gone to Brum. Coincidence? You decide......

Another clue? Dads taking their lads off in a huff through managerial reshuffles is not a new thing.

Now, do you think Rovers would play a silly game like you suggest, and spite Hitchcock to that degree? It didn't happen when Vince O Keefe left the Academy coaching staff did it?

The difference being he was VERY happy at Rovers and when offered the chance to join his dad he refused. THEN Rovers showed HIM the door, but not because of a lack of talent, but for other reasons, should we be throwing talent away like this?

[unleaded]

Tom Hitchcock Is STILL at the club and has scored ALL of Rovers goals In a tournament being held at Brads Academy In America.............The World Youth Tournament......

Rovers have scored only 3 goals so far but the boy Hitchcock has scored them all...............

Rovers beat The Chillain under 16s 1-0.................Last minute winner.............

They then drew 1-1 with some Mexican team...........

Needing a win in there last game V the host team Premier Soccer Academies(Brads Academy)

Hitcock popped up with another last minute winer...................

Rovers are in todays Final.....................

[DingleBaiter]

Well done to Marcus Marshall, Alex Marrow & Bryan Hodge - all been given squad numbers this season. Could they be playing tomoz night? It's particularly quick for Marrow - only came in end of last season from non-league, spotted in a skills contest.

Should be a good chance for Judgey & Treacy to get starts tomoz?

[DeadlyDirk]

Well done to Marcus Marshall, Alex Marrow & Bryan Hodge - all been given squad numbers this season. Could they be playing tomoz night? It's particularly quick for Marrow - only came in end of last season from non-league, spotted in a skills contest.

Should be a good chance for Judgey & Treacy to get starts tomoz?

Good point, it is a bit of a coincidence that they have been given squad numbers the day before the carling cup game so they could well feature at some point.

I'm sure Treacey will start and would hope to see Judge at least get some kind of game, would be nice too see him from the start too.

[rover6]

No offence to Marcus Marshall but him getting a squad number is a severe reflection on our poor striker talent coming through.

According to the official site stats for 2007/8:

Academy - 17 appearances, 2 goals.

Reserves - 5(3) appearances, 2 goals.

If you consider that prolific academy goalscorers, Keith Barker and Joe Garner couldn't make it at Rovers, what chance does this guy?

[Sparky Marky]

and how many times have you seen him play?

[den]

No offence to Marcus Marshall but him getting a squad number is a severe reflection on our poor striker talent coming through.

According to the official site stats for 2007/8:

Academy - 17 appearances, 2 goals.

Reserves - 5(3) appearances, 2 goals.

If you consider that prolific academy goalscorers, Keith Barker and Joe Garner couldn't make it at Rovers, what chance does this guy?

Ah, now I see rover6, - you only select your youngsters based on stats?

Of course, I should have worked that one out long ago. That's the only way you possibly could judge them!

[laughatthedingles]

Must apologise, I got some VERY duff, information regarding Hitchcock, he is most definatly still at the club and VERY happy.

[pick32]

England call up

Official site says Tom Hitchcock just been called up to the england under 17 setup.

[DingleBaiter]

No offence to Marcus Marshall but him getting a squad number is a severe reflection on our poor striker talent coming through.

According to the official site stats for 2007/8:

Academy - 17 appearances, 2 goals.

Reserves - 5(3) appearances, 2 goals.

If you consider that prolific academy goalscorers, Keith Barker and Joe Garner couldn't make it at Rovers, what chance does this guy?

It's been the one position they've been scouting for most since losing Juvel (sp?) over a year back - even this week they're still trialling plenty.Over the years there's been a few okay strikers down there that matured at other clubs - Beattie being the most famous, but Thomas, Burgess etc. all made careers later.

It's also where the current U-18 side look weakest too IMO, bear in mind TH was only 15 when playing there last season.

Regarding Hitchcock - it was duff info, though there was some confusion about if he was coming back this season in the close season. Just goes to show 2 + 2 = whatever folk want to believe I guess.

Well done Tom BTW

No offence to Marcus Marshall but him getting a squad number is a severe reflection on our poor striker talent coming through.

According to the official site stats for 2007/8:

Academy - 17 appearances, 2 goals.

Reserves - 5(3) appearances, 2 goals.

If you consider that prolific academy goalscorers, Keith Barker and Joe Garner couldn't make it at Rovers, what chance does this guy?

Did you know Statto, Angus Loughran, famed football statistician and professional gambler/pundit, went bankrupt?

To repeat an earlier question, how many times you seen MM play? Or are you another Championship Manager superplayer?

Single biggest mistake most folk made when judging the Academy is the assumption that unless players 'make it' into the first team then it's a failure. Granted, this is always a main focus, and the club's looking to expand the Academy with the sole intention of producing players good home-grown players, but only time will tell. We signed an under 16 that then moved on because he's playing first team Bundesliga, as are THREE other ex-Academy players this season. Not too bad I would suggest?

Just snaffled another u-11 wonderkid from under the noses of Liverpool, as we did last season with CL. There's lads there that we signed despite Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Celtic falling over themselves to recruit them, so something must be going right.

[rover6]

Ah, now I see rover6, - you only select your youngsters based on stats?

Of course, I should have worked that one out long ago. That's the only way you possibly could judge them!

Yeah, stats, match reports and mb opinions.

Which results me in having a far more rounded understanding than the sanctimonious props who attend two academy games in three years and couldn't name more than two of the starting eleven and they pontificate about how crap the talent is and how the manager is fully justified in signing experienced talent like Bruno Berner or Jay Bothroyd.

People are saying that Marshall did reasonably well against Grimsby, so maybe he'll defy the stats and succeed. I hope he does. I'd rather he got a bit of a chance, if rated by the management, than Robbie Fowler who can only go down.

[rover6]

Single biggest mistake most folk made when judging the Academy is the assumption that unless players 'make it' into the first team then it's a failure. Granted, this is always a main focus, and the club's looking to expand the Academy with the sole intention of producing players good home-grown players, but only time will tell. We signed an under 16 that then moved on because he's playing first team Bundesliga, as are THREE other ex-Academy players this season. Not too bad I would suggest?

You talking about Mario Pokar, Mamadi Keita, Kevin Pezzoni and Juhvel Tsomou.

I agree that the academy should not just be judged on players that make it to Rovers first team. We should look at how far are rejects go as well, to judge the academy. However, even how far rejects go is not accurate. The academy can do all they can and the reserve boss can pick a player regularly - but if the first team manager incessantly overlooks young players performing well, it is inevitable that they will be disincentivised, demotivated and suffer decline. Waiting around can kill a career that had potential - even if not Prem potential. Which is why I always advocate that Rovers let young players go early - if they don't want them. Keeping them hanging around with no hope of going any further just kills them.

However, the four guys cannot be in any way considered success stories for Rovers academy because three weren't given chances at reserve level and Kevin Pezzoni was demoted to the academy side when he got called to the German U21 side. There's more criticism than praise deserving on that basis for Rovers youth system (academy should be judged in conjunction with the reserves).

[den]

Ah, now I see rover6, - you only select your youngsters based on stats?

Of course, I should have worked that one out long ago. That's the only way you possibly could judge them!

Yeah, stats, match reports and mb opinions.

Which results me in having a far more rounded understanding than the sanctimonious props who attend two academy games in three years

Why does it?

[DingleBaiter]

You talking about Mario Pokar, Mamadi Keita, Kevin Pezzoni and Juhvel Tsomou.

I agree that the academy should not just be judged on players that make it to Rovers first team. We should look at how far are rejects go as well, to judge the academy. However, even how far rejects go is not accurate. The academy can do all they can and the reserve boss can pick a player regularly - but if the first team manager incessantly overlooks young players performing well, it is inevitable that they will be disincentivised, demotivated and suffer decline. Waiting around can kill a career that had potential - even if not Prem potential. Which is why I always advocate that Rovers let young players go early - if they don't want them. Keeping them hanging around with no hope of going any further just kills them.

However, the four guys cannot be in any way considered success stories for Rovers academy because three weren't given chances at reserve level and Kevin Pezzoni was demoted to the academy side when he got called to the German U21 side. There's more criticism than praise deserving on that basis for Rovers youth system (academy should be judged in conjunction with the reserves).

opinions ultimately.

Think you misunderstand/ignore the multitude of factors that come into play about how players graduate through the academy/reserves; only one of which is the first team manager picking them.

TBH there's not even a clear standard by which to judge the Academy I don't think; like a lot of things in football it tends towards the subjective rather than objective. Take Juvel for instance - a lad they signed as a U-16, played in U-18 & reserve and I seriously think this season he would be causing havoc, his style & physique lent itself to English footy every way up. He's not at Rovers anymore for one simple reason - agents. A move was put to him, Academy/U-18 at Rovers or a first team contract back home? Hmmm, what would YOU do?

One could argue the fact Rovers RECRUITMENT/SCOUTING isn't the issue here, it's the DEVELOPMENT/RETENTION of them?

I've often thought Rovers biggest problem here was no-one seemed to take a holistic view of the graduation of a player - IMO only Dalglish & Hughes showed any joined-up thinking overseeing all this. Reserves can prove to be an elephants graveyard somewhat; a lot of the problem is when they graduate as Scholars to pros (this is where I agree with you somewhat). Once players get pro contracts they're only real hope is squad or Cup games, and that's why I'm pleased Ince at least seems to be giving them a chance. We've had a long list of players who fared really well at Academy, only to hit development hell as a pro. Andy Taylor probably being the most recent one - big things predicted, not half a bad player, but sometimes it's any one of several reasons why they don't 'make it'.

It's a bit simplistic to presume that Rovers can't, or won't release players, who they don't think will make the step up into the first team - and certainly not sound business.

Look at Treacy for instance - 3 years ago MH picked him to start a pre-season game, but he's seemingly not progessed under MH's reign. Anyone that saw him during that time would be churlish to say it's cos he wasn't good enough, but 'other factors' seemingly hindered his progression. If it wasn't for Ince seeing something in him, giving him the games, he'd probably end up another Sergio. At least Peds is now looking over his shoulder a bit - which he should have been doing last two seasons.

Look at Gally - he's got a good contract, had some good loans, but also seems to have flattened out somewhat. Derbs, though not really a true home-grown player, still would bring in more than 20,000 if we sold him.

The point about the 4 players back in Germany wasn't that they were models of success for the Academy, merely just saying we didn't know for sure they weren't going to make it here, they still did okay to get the moves they did. Can't comment on Pokar, but certainly Pizzoni was the only one truly 'released' as in not being up to scratch. Even then, he wasn't even properly 'let go' as a move came in before the end of the season he couldn't turn down.

[rover6]

Isn't it obvious?

You can't genuinely judge players on a couple of games. You need to put their career in context. Which is why some people went and watched Gamst in one reserve game when he was suffering exile by Hughes, and came back with reports that he was worse than De Pedro, not good enough for the first team and a sale would benefit all parties. Meanwhile, I and other people, had not seen Gamst play but we, quite reasonably, looked at his career record, his international record and the subjective views of our Norwegian pals and concluded that, no, he was better than that and deserves a chance and will prove himself useful.

I fully respect and bow to the knowledge of the people who attend regular reserve and academy fixtures and who pass judgment. But the sanctimonious ones who attend one game in a blue moon and don't really care or know about youth football are the ones that get me. Some of these people jump to conclusions on the team/ a player and then claim that this must be Gospel because they went to one or two matches. Who's in a better position to pass judgment - a scout who watched Maceo Rigters in two games in the Euro U21 champs - or - a scout who sat down and examined the goal record of Rigters throughout his career, and received opinions from fans of clubs that he'd played at and read match reports?

Ideally, one would watch the academy and reserves regularly AND be aware of the stats, records and the opinions of other people. This would put you in the best position to judge. (However, I have found that many people who attend youth matches have a vested interest and therefore their views are despairingly biased - i.e they have a lad in the academy system and either do not want to hamper his chances OR want to gripe because Daddy jnr's being overlooked. Or they are pals with the academy staff and don't want to criticise friends).

Just to finish, Den, my argument on youth football is not based on cyber-scouting - it is systematic. My argument is that EVERY reserve player who reaches a consistent high standard and attitude should be GUARENTEED first team opportunities to take his self-belief and therefore game to the next level. In that sense, I am not the one making the judgments on players - it's the first team manager and reserve boss. They are the ones who have decided that players like Kane, Nolan, Peter, Treacy, Judge, Olsson, Doran, Fielding done well enough at reserve level to deserve first team squad status. My argument is that now they should all get chances with the first team at some stage.

[DingleBaiter]

Isn't it obvious?

You can't genuinely judge players on a couple of games.

.............

My argument is that now they should all get chances with the first team at some stage.

good post

Just wish other folks would learn your judgement skills & apply them to Carlos, Andrews etc.

Always amazes me how hasty people are to make fools of themselves by judging a player too soon - good or bad.

[LeChuck]

Ideally, one would watch the academy and reserves regularly AND be aware of the stats, records and the opinions of other people. This would put you in the best position to judge.

Out of interest, why don't you? I mean that genuinely, I agree with some of what you've said there so I'm not being sarcastic or anything.

Youth team football must be dirt cheap to watch, if it even costs anything at all. The Rovers youth team must come near you at least once in a year, if not more. You obviously care about youth football and wish to discuss it, so why not go along to some games a couple of times a year and, a] give yourself a more informed opinion, and b] remove the ammunition for others to have a go at you when you talk about the Rovers youth team.

[DingleBaiter]

Out of interest, why don't you? I mean that genuinely, I agree with some of what you've said there so I'm being sarcastic or anything.

Youth team football must be dirt cheap to watch, if it even costs anything at all. The Rovers youth team must come near you at least once in a year, if not more. You obviously care about youth football and wish to discuss it, so why not go along to some games a couple of times a year and, a] give yourself a more informed opinion, and b] remove the ammunition for others to have a go at you when you talk about the Rovers youth team.

Mon -1 Sep - 1900

Reserves play first league game Under Mr B (home - well, at Christie Park, Morecambe) against Boltdum.

Come along - best pies at any football ground, ever. Fact.

Free for season ticket holders. Oh.

[Lee]

rover6, the Academy are down at Crystal Palace on Saturday, thats not far from your neck of the woods is it not?

[den]

Yeah, then he can hopefully gain promotion to one of the, [to quote rover6]:

Which results me in having a far more rounded understanding than the sanctimonious props who attend two academy games in three years

[Majiball]

Youth development is a on going developing subject not just for Rovers but for football as a whole:

This is a good read:

Science and Football

Check out the workshop section at the end:

Workshop

The understanding of paediatric sports science, player development and talent spotting can be aided by injecting objective conditions. I say this for one reason, when you where a kid tell me when you where say timed for your sprint what was the first words out of your mouth at the finish "how did I do?". Stat's can have an extremely positive role in player development and aid a coaches subjective view point, by introducing some objectivity. Arsenal have pro zone installed at their academy, they seem to produce a lot of good players. Competitiveness is in built into developing sports children, targets drive them on.

I like your comment (DingleBaiter) on Reserves football yes it can be an "elephants graveyard" It should be used as a stepping stone for young players, but the final step for youth players is the biggest leap in footballing standards a young player will ever face. Is it too big a step? I would without doubt say yes. We have a tie-in with Cercle Brugge development of this link is required, as well as better relations between us and other English clubs with a view to loans. I would also add that ending and making the step up to adult football at 18 is a flawed ideal, clubs still have 3rd year YTS apprentice's, limbo players if you like. Italy do not have U18's they have Under 20's its fact players can develop late, the bar should be raised.

Other considerations with development must also be considered eg. A player with talent will do well progressing through the ranks, I will use a striker in this example its easier. He regularly scores a lot of goals all the way through the academy he gets a pro contract and starts off in adult football, this is the point in his career he faces the greatest hurdle to date, he doesn't score for 8 games (its not that uncommon), for the first time in his career he's failing, how does he cope? how does the coach turn it round?, big questions, that will make or break his development get it wrong and you've made the challenge even harder than it was before. A potentially good player may fall by the wayside. Players need to see upward progression or they will stagnate

Youth development has a sink or swim approach, you succeed or you fail there is no middle ground. I would suggest that you hit the nail on the head with Rovers Dinglebaiter, Rovers lack the final step progression. Who says our youngsters must gain first team experience with our club, why not a club that shares our training ideals? Why do Rovers youth not play top European academies Ajax, Barca et al, players would then have an idea of what is required. Greater progressive challenges are needed at this level its too big a jump.

Its all well and good having a team of youth internationals if your club is not capable of a well staggered progressive transition into adult football and premiership standard play, then what's the point.

[DingleBaiter]

Youth development is a on going developing subject not just for Rovers but for football as a whole:

Its all well and good having a team of youth internationals if your club is not capable of a well staggered progressive transition into adult football and premiership standard play, then what's the point.

Another good post, enjoying this thread, not as bitchy as the other ones!

For all Arsenal's vaunted youth policy; there's also an argument it's not that successful moneywise (generally, not considering specific cases such as Bentley). They spend an awful lot of revenue bringing players in - when they played us in Youth Cup, 2003 I think, it was claimed they'd spent 8 million in fees to get them players in. That said, some of them (Hoyte, Sidwell etc) made it through into the first team and have transferred on. Some like Tabaradis (I think!) didn't, and where just Coca Cola Cup players.

Chelsea finally made it the Youth Cup final, and it's no coincidence they did so by filletting other clubs youth's streams (such as Leeds). Okay, any Academy costs a lot of money, but there's also a bit of obfuscation thrown out by clubs. The club our Academy is looking to model itself on is Boro - much more realistic, much more long term, much less expectation and pressure. The bigger Academies (Liverpool, United and Arsenal for instance) are shopping in a far more aggressive way and far bigger pond, but also their churn is massive. Boro, like us, realise they won't be the automatic first choice for players but they can focus more on homegrown players that aren't as fickle in the numbers game as at the big clubs, where it's more of a production line. Reflect on United for a moment - all the rumpus about their youth policy, and since Hansen's kids, there's not really been steady growth through. Lots of promising youngsters such as Chadwick, Eagles, the Italian & Spanish lads, etc but they are often masked by playing in games with the first team and the general quality overshadowing their individual capabilities.

It's always interesting in the Youth cup to see sides such as Peterboro & Norwich doing well, often because of either financial restraints, or having a good catchment area. A lot of folk seem to have overlooked the PR blast end of last season about the overhaul of our Academy over the next few years. It was the case we'd recruit from Scotland and Ireland quite heavily - at one time we had 17 Irish lads down there - but they're keen to widen their net more incountry as well as outside.

I'm not sure the Cercle Bruge link is as apparent as it was, we always had a couple of players there on loan for a season but can't say can recall it being as busy in recent seasons.

However, I am more confident with Ince & his backroom/scouting stuff and their connections of having a more joined-up mentality over his tenure here. He's shown with his use of Doran, Judge, Marshall, Treacy at least he's aware of them. Then again, have a look at the squad numbers and see all the Academy/reserve lads in there, and let's see how they do. Bear in mind, IMO Ince is setting his squad now for two seasons, with tweaking as and when needed, so I think the youngies are going to get as much chance as they can. Come next season, there's a couple of players around that I think will be good squad members certainly this time next year, one in particular going to be tearing up the frontline.

[Majiball]

A lot of folk seem to have overlooked the PR blast end of last season about the overhaul of our Academy over the next few years. It was the case we'd recruit from Scotland and Ireland quite heavily - at one time we had 17 Irish lads down there - but they're keen to widen their net more incountry as well as outside.

This is the part that intrigues me at present time with Rovers. We have seen the introduction of a mental development program within the club, and while I applaud such innovations, at the same time I have reservations.

To draw an analogy, how many people have Microsoft word, but how many people have the knowledge required to utilise it to its full potential. Not the best I know but what knowledge/training have the coaches had if any? Does it fall on the shoulders of one person or is it a magnitude of viewpoints? bear in mind there will be up wards of 150 players from U8's through to U16's. Given that one person/untrained people would spend rather limited time with all the players, then surely its flawed already?

As with all walks in life one viewpoint is never enough with which to draw conclusions, I would hope the outcome would be like Middlesbourgh (I'm also going to throw in Everton here). But studying the techniques employed by fabled Academies that consistently produce first team players will also reap great rewards.

It should not just be the development of players that is of concern but the development and knowledge base of all our staff. I would go as far to suggest that people should be brought in who specialise and have far greater knowledge to guide and aid them. Do we have a human growth maturation knowledge base? Is the coaching program an overall development from U8 through till U16? Do we have people who understand what different children at differing stages can and cannot cope with? Are we looking at expanding beyond the norm IE, training camps a la Holland for children under 8 who cannot be attached to a club?

I would also ardently argue for stat's to be introduced if even in a minor form. Having portfolio's on how a child's progresses on basics such as pass completion. This would allow for less pressure to be placed on a coach's memory and analytical skills, it also again injects objectivity.

I would love to know more about what they plan to do and how they plan to execute/develop these plans it would make very interesting reading. I truly believe that this is the way forward for our club we do not have the financial muscle to compete with the rest of the premiership.

[Parsonblue]

No offence to Marcus Marshall but him getting a squad number is a severe reflection on our poor striker talent coming through.

According to the official site stats for 2007/8:

Academy - 17 appearances, 2 goals.

Reserves - 5(3) appearances, 2 goals.

If you consider that prolific academy goalscorers, Keith Barker and Joe Garner couldn't make it at Rovers, what chance does this guy?

I think Marcus Marshall is a pretty decent prospect and have seen quite a bit of him at Academy and Reserve level. You can't judge a player just by statistics you need to watch his performances on the field. He has plenty of skill, has a good touch and works hard. Considering that he only joined the Academy last autumn I think he has made tremendous progress. He made the most of his opportunity last night and did all that could have been expected of him.

[waggy]

paul ince has blooded more youngsters than hughes did in 4 years i salute you