[Archived] Fans, Supporters and Critics

[Miker]

In light of Dunn's recent statement about the fans, it got me thinking about the role we play within the club and what that role should really be. The collective group of people that go to watch their team play at the stadium, or even watch on TV or a video stream online, are generally referred to as "fans" or "supporters". Fans, by their very definition, are fanatics... people who love something so much that their love can often be irrational: unconditional love. Supporters by their very definition are people that "support" something, such as a football team. By the very definitions of these terms, you, me and every single Blackburn fan (or supporter) should love the club unconditionally and always show support no matter what. By these very definitions, protests, booing and critique are contradictory to being termed a fan or a supporter.

What this means is that as people that criticise the team, manager and owners, we are shifting from a tag of "fan" or "supporter" to one of "critic". Although this is not a new occurence (I'm sure booing and protests occured well before I was born), there is a massive change in the ways "fans" can act as "critic". Where previously critics only existed within media, usually as professional journalists or retired football players, we now have critics in every household. All a person needs to do is go on a website and post their criticism to obtain an audience of hundreds, possibly thousands. We're now seeing fans post on messageboards, comment on news articles, start up their own blogs, even have their own podcasts. Basically, critics now have a bigger, louder voice.

Is this a good thing?

I'm not sure. I don't think it's really possible for someone to be both a fan/supporter and a critic simultaneously. By their very logic, they are contradictory. We've seen on here that when talking about protests, we often talk about protesting before or after the game, and supporting the team during (you can't boo and cheer at the same time). The stories I've been reading about people arguing during the Man City game suggest there's a struggle occuring between the supporters and critics. In fact, I think there's a struggle occuring between the supporter and critic in all of us, especially the ones anti-Kean. This surely contributes to our feeling of disillusionment.

Reflecting on Dunn's statement, he is obviously concerned that too many supporters are now turning into critics.

I have several questions to everyone to see what you think:

What happens when there are more critics of the team than supporters?

Is it better for the team to receive more criticism than support?

Do you consider yourself to be more of a supporter or a critic?

For the record, I think Dunn's comments are a bit wide of the mark, as I think we've been rather patient as far as protests and booing goes. However, I do agree that it does go on and often unfairly, such as the treatment of Andrews.

As a side note, based on what I've read from people on here, everyone still supports Blackburn Rovers, "the club", unconditionally, but only in terms of the name and history. It seems like the staff and players are no longer treated as a part of the club though and are therefore fair game for any criticism.

[Paul]

Well I really feel you've made things far more complex than they actually are. We are all supporters or fans of Rovers, nothing more or less and none of us are turning into your critics.

As for Andrews? I remain disgusted by the treatment he received on here and in the ground. Those acting on this way should take a long hard look at themselves.

Yes of course we support the club, the individuals are transient and the only constants are the fans and the club

I feel you are trying to comment on something which doesn't exist.

[waggy]

.

As for Andrews? I remain disgusted by the treatment he received on here and in the ground. Those acting on this way should take a long hard look at themselves.

its the same with kean,getting far to personal for me

[Paul]

I completely agree. For me it can reach the point where I cease to take any notice of the views expressed about the individual. The thread about Kean and his drink / driving was a good example iof this. Criticism is fine but the level of personal abuse puts the poster in a poor light.

[American Rover12]

I am a Fan and a Supporter of Blackburn Rovers. I am a critic of Steve Kean and critical of how Venkys have run things since taking over.

[Miker]

I don't think I'm commenting on something that doesn't exist. I think it very much does.

It's telling that you are saying "none of us are turning into your critics". As though it's MY definition of critic, I'm putting you under.

I am simply pointing out that by it's very definition, supporters SUPPORT and critics CRITIQUE. How can you then define yourself as a supporter if you are booing and insulting the players or staff?

I'm not placing any negative connotations on this, if you're trying to interpret it that way. Supporters aren't better or more noble than critics, and critics aren't better or more noble than supporters. They're just descriptions of what you're doing.

It is clear to me that we very much ARE critics now. More importantly, we are critics that can be easily heard by mass audiences, including people at the club, more easily than ever before. I'm just wondering what the implications of that are.

[jodrell]

its the same with kean,getting far to personal for me

unlike your love in with Sam

[gumboots]

I don't think I'm commenting on something that doesn't exist. I think it very much does.

It's telling that you are saying "none of us are turning into your critics". As though it's MY definition of critic, I'm putting you under.

I am simply pointing out that by it's very definition, supporters SUPPORT and critics CRITIQUE. How can you then define yourself as a supporter if you are booing and insulting the players or staff?

I'm not placing any negative connotations on this, if you're trying to interpret it that way. Supporters aren't better or more noble than critics, and critics aren't better or more noble than supporters. They're just descriptions of what you're doing.

It is clear to me that we very much ARE critics now. More importantly, we are critics that can be easily heard by mass audiences, including people at the club, more easily than ever before. I'm just wondering what the implications of that are.

It's called tough Love. sometimes you have to be critical in the short term for the long term success. There are many who are themselves deeply upset by what the incompetence of the manager has turned them into. They would love to get back to just cheering on their team, but feel that for the longterm health of the club they have to voice their current frustrations

[brian_gallagher85]

its the same with kean,getting far to personal for me

The difference is Andrews was given grief because he wasn't Zidane.

Steve Kean is getting abuse, and rightly so, because he's dragging the club further through the mud each and every week with his conduct on and off the pitch.

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

its the same with kean,getting far to personal for me

I'm assuming the blushing smiley was to highlight the irony in your post Waggy.

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

Fans generally have always had an opinion on games but this is now magnified by the media coverage - MOTD, Football first, internet, messageboards etc.

Most people are competitive by nature. The addage you win some, you lose some is springs to mind. Predominantly losing is always going to get people's back up and they will react/criticise. Otherwise, what's the point?

[Paul]

I protested on Saturday. I stood in the JW chanting Kean out, I was close to tears at the time and sat with my face covered a couple of times.

I am not a critic of Blackburn Rovers but have been driven to this by the incompetence of the Rao family and their chosen manager. I did not plan to join the Kean out chants, it just happened. I had reached a point of despair about my club. We are in the wilderness with no sign of a way home.

I don't plan to protest again but I may do.

An exercise in word definition does not, IMV, describe what is happening. The truth is thousands have been driven to the point of despair.

If a Venky's Out chant starts against Spurs I may well find myself part of it. On the otherhand if I can see a small chink of light to give me some hope I may not.

For now the situation is hopeless but I still support my club.

[darwenblueswearehere]

I think you are applying academic logic to an emotional attachment, almost always an impossible thing to do justice to.

You could write a 40,000 word dissertation and it still wouldn't explain the complexities of the roller coaster ride that being a supporter (or fan if you prefer) of a football club is. Smaller, community clubs like ours probably add another dimension entirely and would add a good few thousand words onto the academic exercise of trying to articulate what it means.

Think I'll save myself around 39,998 words.... KEAN OUT!!!!!

[Mattyblue]

I support Blackburn Rovers, the players and management are transient contractors performing a role for the club.

My loyalty is only to the institution, if I feel a contractor is jepordising the club's health, I will protest. Same for the owners.

[sw0808]

Is a supporter? - someone who pays to watch and thus contributes to the balance sheet in some way.

And as such, (I think) gives them the right to comment on both positive and negative issues

I would never boo a Rovers player (ever) for any reason!

Like "paul" I found myself chanting "kean out" after Saturdays game - something I hadnt planned on doing, but watching Blackburn Rovers fall apart is to much to bear for this supporter

[den]

What's wrong with people being critics? A critic is someone who makes a judgement, whether that be good, bad, positive or negative. We're in a new world where people can communicate with people in larger numbers than ever before and surely that's a good thing?

What you are really asking Miker, is should people push "negative" views. Short answer is that people should say what they feel. What's negative to one individual, can be positive to someone else. When something is wrong, people bringing this to attention is good.

[Guest Rovers4Good]

Let's face it Dunns comments about the fans and supporters that pay his wages whilst sat on the treatment table is like sticking two fingers up at us.

He is well within his rights to air his views and he's well within his rights to come out and say look please don't boo and jeer at the players and managers as they are trying. Well let's face the hard reality that they are clearly not enjoying themselves and they are clearly not giving their all for the football club. Also, the cheek of the man that clearly knows he's well past the Premier League standard and still earns a very good living out of being injured more times than is fit.

Yes we all need to unite and we i feel have done, we are united by the fact that no matter what is said or done, we will always love Blackburn Rovers and we will always support them. We are also united by the fact that Steve Kean is looking more and more out of his depth. Yes we can all give the man more time but how much more time would you like to stay at the bottom of the division and when do you say enough is enough? Because as it stands we are relegation foder and if we don't move fast then it's goodbye to life that as treat David Dunn very well.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Good post Miker, some very interesting points. Booing Kean at the Man City game is the first time I've ever victimised a player/manager of Rovers. Usually I'm appalled by people who do that, but I felt like I had to do it this time.

I think the fairly harsh reality is that very few of us are supporters/fans of the owners, manager or players. You're quite right in saying we're critics of these people, generally encouraging and positive critics, but critics nonetheless. The one thing we do support and are fanatical about is the club. And what is the club if its not the owners, manager and players? Its basically everything else: the name, the strip, the badge, the history, the ground, the town, the fans.

My attitude to the people involved in Rovers is I stop being a critic and become a fan/supporter of those I trust. I trusted John Williams, which meant I never needed to criticise a manager because if things got bad he would deal with it. I don't trust Venkys, I don't trust them to deal with the situation of a bad manager. Which makes me feel like I have to protest to protect the club.

[cesus]

I was thinking too about this subject last night, so thank you Miker for starting the thread. As fans where do we draw the line from wanting to show our displeasure of the current manager, regime etc to almost stop supporting the team?

We seem to be whipping ourselves up into a frenzy before a game even before a ball is kicked then as soon as a ball is misplaced or a goal conceded the murmurings start and infectiously an anger and resentment builds, fans argue amongst themselves, players get screamed at. In my opinions Kean seems to SOMEHOW have convinced the owners that he is the man for the job, and unfortunately I do not think he is going anywhere anytime soon and he certainly won't do the good thing and walk away.

So my question is do we protest, boo and sing anti-Kean songs every game until he goes which doesn't seem to be anytime soon or do we try to get back to the majority of fans trying to support? I do not have an answer for this but my point in the main is Kean doesn't appear to be going anywhere (much to my displeasure) do we try and back the team or continue with the anger towards Kean which I'm positive does not help the team.

[DE.]

You can't really place football support into such black-and-white categories as "supporter" and "critic". You can still support the club without supporting the person in charge. Steve Kean isn't Blackburn Rovers and neither are Venky's. One may manage the club and one may own the club, but neither represent what Rovers are all about. I very much doubt they ever will, so there's no contradiction in criticising them as long as it's being done with the club's best interests at heart.

[mhead]

Great thread. I support the Club as Blackburn's Greatest Institution.

I remember the 50s and the big crowds; we used to cry ourselves seeing Wainwright's programme when he walked onto the Ewood park pitch; I booed Iley,Don Mackay just pre-Dalglish,Shearer when he showed little respect.

I loved Mike England,Colin Hendry,Tony Parkes and Shearer always scoring -but particularly the 3 'gems' when we got promoted 11 years ago.

We were so down in the early 70s I never thought we would EVER recover,so could not believe the FMC Final victory with 30,000 of us,then the tenseness of 94/95,and actually winning the Worthington Cup Final.

So now still feels like 'up' and even with the amateur in charge and lots of good players the situation still does not feel hopeless. Oh and the family go back to the 1920s and now 4 generations later we still have 4 Season tickets.

And I was one of the 3,000 against Port vale(i think) BUT the problem on here is that people are getting or trying to get too close to the Business end and Management scenarios of BRFC. The closer you get to football clubs the more you are likely to lose your blind love.

[cesus]

Great thread. I support the Club as Blackburn's Greatest Institution.

I remember the 50s and the big crowds; we used to cry ourselves seeing Wainwright's programme when he walked onto the Ewood park pitch; I booed Iley,Don Mackay just pre-Dalglish,Shearer when he showed little respect.

I loved Mike England,Colin Hendry,Tony Parkes and Shearer always scoring -but particularly the 3 'gems' when we got promoted 11 years ago.

We were so down in the early 70s I never thought we would EVER recover,so could not believe the FMC Final victory with 30,000 of us,then the tenseness of 94/95,and actually winning the Worthington Cup Final.

So now still feels like 'up' and even with the amateur in charge and lots of good players the situation still does not feel hopeless. Oh and the family go back to the 1920s and now 4 generations later we still have 4 Season tickets.

And I was one of the 3,000 against Port vale(i think) BUT the problem on here is that people are getting or trying to get too close to the Business end and Management scenarios of BRFC. The closer you get to football clubs the more you are likely to lose your blind love.

Great post.

[DE.]

BUT the problem on here is that people are getting or trying to get too close to the Business end and Management scenarios of BRFC.

I think the problem most of us have is that it seems apparent there aren't any!!

[m1st]

Excellent idea for a thread, Miker.

Like many who've posted on it, I count myself, first and foremost as a fan of the club, I have been for nearly 60 years, and will be till my dying breath. I guess I've always felt that status always gave me the right to criticise the club; but, in the good[?] old days, that criticism would be little more than grumbling to your mates or, at the most, writing to the "Evening Telegraph" ["Northern Daily Telegraph" for the real old-timers among us! ] about the club and/or the team. For example, not being a season ticket-holder in 1959-60 and not going to every home game [my parents and I lived in Blackpool at the time and my Dad didn't drive], I knew I had no chance of getting a ticket for the Cup Final and was reconciled to watching it on TV. But I'm sure I also remember criticism of the way Cup Final tickets were allocated.

So is all this not just a symptom of modern life?

Not wishing to sound too much like the old fogey I know I'm becoming, I kind of dislike the way in which the 24-hour media and web have accelerated things so much. They mean that things are so much more in our faces than they used to be and we all have the opportunity to comment to the world, whether or not we're qualified to.

Equally, the multiple between what players earn, and what we fans earn or have through the pension is massively different from what it was when I was a lad. If you watch someone not doing his job [playing football] very well but still receiving more than 50 times what you get, is it not human to criticise, even though you [i!] know I could never do that job? Whereas, back in the 1950s and early 1960s, you knew that footballers would earn not much more than most of the fans who cheered them on or grumbled.

It isn't just us, of course; this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/oct/03/emmanuel-adebayor-tottenham-arsenal was in yesterday's "Guardian".

[Miker]

Thought I'd bump this up given the recent arguments of "who are the real fans?"