[Archived] Venkys London Limited - Accounts

[glen9mullan]

I don't thionk anyone is saying that they are broke, just that next season if we don't go up then they will either have to make big cutbacks or put in a huge amount of money to cover the losses. The issue that many people have is that they don't trust them to do that.

That could be said about any club in the league, but the truth is to date they have put money in, and regardless of if its via an interest loan from them or a gift, its far better than it being a loan from the bank where interest is accrued and the clubs assets were used as the security

Whilst the clubs overdraft facility is half of what it was, yet there is no stories coming out of people not getting their wages.

The fact the clubs assets are no longer secured against debt, is not just a positive its a massive relief

Dave Whelan has put millions n million into wigan and continues to do so, just for them to tick over. What happens when he wants his money back? That wont be happening as he has already stated he does not want the money back.

[Rover_Shaun]

If people think Venky's will never want their money back they are being very very naive

[glen9mullan]

If people think Venky's will never want their money back they are being very very naive

If they think they will get their money back , thats even more naive, you cannot make money by owning a football club. As Nick Harris will confirm they was advised quite correctly earlier in the year how much they had to put in then, how much this summer how much next summer and so on. They was told football is not a cash cow and if they wish to hold onto the club, then its going to cost them and cost them a lot every single week. Yet they still don't want to sell. I don't think they are under any illusions the cost of running a football club as they have witnessed it first hand and have the hole in their bank balances for the experience. What they do need to do, is now try and run it, so the team is competitve and prevent finance wastage which they have not been able to achieve to date. If they can do that then they wont have to dig as deep as they have so far

Rovers will be counting the losses for a few years yet for poor signings on silly wages. We have a number of players who the club does not want, but cant give away, and the players in question won't go because they are on silly money and will not take a pay cut. Having them on the pay role at present is a major problem

[Rover_Shaun]

You can get your money back. You sell off everything

[Mercer]

That could be said about any club in the league, but the truth is to date they have put money in, and regardless of if its via an interest loan from them or a gift, its far better than it being a loan from the bank where interest is accrued and the clubs assets were used as the security

Whilst the clubs overdraft facility is half of what it was, yet there is no stories coming out of people not getting their wages.

The fact the clubs assets are no longer secured against debt, is not just a positive its a massive relief

Dave Whelan has put millions n million into wigan and continues to do so, just for them to tick over. What happens when he wants his money back? That wont be happening as he has already stated he does not want the money back.

Clearly, you have little idea how secured lending, recovery of lending or insolvency law works, otherwise you would not come out with such a statement.

I have attempted to explain this before and I am not going through again.

IMO, you, and others, have been lulled into a false sense of security over this.

[PAFELL]

Those on here who are experienced in accounting say the Rovers accounts make for very uncomfortable reading.

But those not experienced in accounting say different.

I know who I believe.

[den]

HOWEVER, at the moment Venky's have no interest in selling the club. The people who have contacted them about buying the club have been totally ignored.

Well........ not saying they are interested in selling Kamy, but that situation means nothing. It could well be that there's a split between the three of them and they simply can't make that decision. That wouldn't surprise me in the least. Not replying to people seems to be a "forte" to them.

[TBTF]

If they think they will get their money back , thats even more naive, you cannot make money by owning a football club. As Nick Harris will confirm they was advised quite correctly earlier in the year how much they had to put in then, how much this summer how much next summer and so on. They was told football is not a cash cow and if they wish to hold onto the club, then its going to cost them and cost them a lot every single week. Yet they still don't want to sell. I don't think they are under any illusions the cost of running a football club as they have witnessed it first hand and have the hole in their bank balances for the experience. What they do need to do, is now try and run it, so the team is competitve and prevent finance wastage which they have not been able to achieve to date. If they can do that then they wont have to dig as deep as they have so far

Rovers will be counting the losses for a few years yet for poor signings on silly wages. We have a number of players who the club does not want, but cant give away, and the players in question won't go because they are on silly money and will not take a pay cut. Having them on the pay role at present is a major problem

And Shebby has been a huge part of this .He wont be working for nothing no matter who pays him directly or indirectly, he is signing Portugese like they are going out of fashion, he is paying agents like they are going out of fashion , he is making one terrible decision after another most of which cost money.There are fitness people coming and going , he fecked up on Kean which will probably end up costing-the man is a complete tit.

And you are going on about running it properly and saving finance wastage-you seriously are having a laugh Glen.That ain't happening while our Global Adviser -sorry i mean aspiring Manager-is running the show.

Sorry Glen but your change of tune is ridiculous now

[he6rt6gr6m]

If they think they will get their money back , thats even more naive, you cannot make money by owning a football club. As Nick Harris will confirm they was advised quite correctly earlier in the year how much they had to put in then, how much this summer how much next summer and so on. They was told football is not a cash cow and if they wish to hold onto the club, then its going to cost them and cost them a lot every single week. Yet they still don't want to sell. I don't think they are under any illusions the cost of running a football club as they have witnessed it first hand and have the hole in their bank balances for the experience. What they do need to do, is now try and run it, so the team is competitve and prevent finance wastage which they have not been able to achieve to date. If they can do that then they wont have to dig as deep as they have so far

Rovers will be counting the losses for a few years yet for poor signings on silly wages. We have a number of players who the club does not want, but cant give away, and the players in question won't go because they are on silly money and will not take a pay cut. Having them on the pay role at present is a major problem

The way I see it, they are concerned what sort of harm they'll do to their reputation if they do sell. Not that there is a positive reputation for them to uphold here now anyway.

You also referenced what they have injected to date. The key words here being 'to date.'

To date, they've systematically destroyed an impecably ran club, along with the hopes, dreams and lives of supporters. To date, they've shown nothing but naivety and stubborness, all the while diminishing the little faith people had put in them to do the right thing time and again.

To date, they have shown they are not football-savvy, and have shown that they are way out of their depth.

After all they've put us through... Put YOU through, I stand here truly amazed that you are defending and TRUSTING them.

[PAFELL]

The way I see it, they are concerned what sort of harm they'll do to their reputation if they do sell. Not that there is a positive reputation for them to uphold here now anyway.

You also referenced what they have injected to date. The key words here being 'to date.'

To date, they've systematically destroyed an impecably ran club, along with the hopes, dreams and lives of supporters. To date, they've shown nothing but naivety and stubborness, all the while diminishing the little faith people had put in them to do the right thing time and again.

To date, they have shown they are not football-savvy, and have shown that they are way out of their depth.

After all they've put us through... Put YOU through, I stand here truly amazed that you are defending and TRUSTING them.

Venkys have had nearly two years to learn how to run a football club. They have shown that they still do not know how to do it and take advice from the wrong folk. ironically, even if all of a sudden they did run the club properly - I do not think the majority of us would trust them to continue doing so. I do not think a genuine Rovers supporter will ever be able to trust venkys to run the club properly. Venkys have not done anything to show us they can be trusted.

[glen9mullan]

The way I see it, they are concerned what sort of harm they'll do to their reputation if they do sell. Not that there is a positive reputation for them to uphold here now anyway.

You also referenced what they have injected to date. The key words here being 'to date.'

To date, they've systematically destroyed an impecably ran club, along with the hopes, dreams and lives of supporters. To date, they've shown nothing but naivety and stubborness, all the while diminishing the little faith people had put in them to do the right thing time and again.

To date, they have shown they are not football-savvy, and have shown that they are way out of their depth.

After all they've put us through... Put YOU through, I stand here truly amazed that you are defending and TRUSTING them.

I am certainly not defending them or indeed trusting them, those things are earnt and to date they have not earnt them.

This thread is purely on the accounts, not all the other things they are accountable for. (Plenty other threads for that)

I do try and keep each issue in its own category and look at them on their own merit and systematically.

You as a member of the Rovers Trust, who are promoting working with the owners will find as time goes by should a 80%/20% split which is one option you are promoting to supporters ever come to fruitition that the wording of the above is going to do the trust no favours.

[he6rt6gr6m]

I am certainly not defending them or indeed trusting them, those things are earnt and to date they have not earnt them.

This thread is purely on the accounts, not all the other things they are accountable for. (Plenty other threads for that)

I do try and keep each issue in its own category and look at them on their own merit and systematically.

You as a member of the Rovers Trust, who are promoting working with the owners will find as time goes by should a 80%/20% split which is one option you are promoting to supporters ever come to fruitition that the wording of the above is going to do the trust no favours.

I didn't mean defending the last 2 years, but you certainly are now, and that's with numerous accountants stating that these numbers are grim.

Obviously, my words are personal opinion. Trying to pass it off as a group opinion would be rather foolish on the part of anyone that attempted to do so.

Getting a stake in the club and a fans representative on the board ensures that we are safe in knowledge of just what is going on. Our fans deserve that at least.

I can't forgive them for the last 2 years, even if some seemingly have. That makes me more determined for this to work.

[Wendal]

I am certainly not defending them or indeed trusting them, those things are earnt and to date they have not earnt them.

This thread is purely on the accounts, not all the other things they are accountable for. (Plenty other threads for that)

Even on the accounts, you're defending/trying to justify the pure cold hard facts written and signed off in black and white.

The switch from protestor to puppet is one of epic proportions!

[glen9mullan]

I didn't mean defending the last 2 years, but you certainly are now, and that's with numerous accountants stating that these numbers are grim.

Obviously, my words are personal opinion. Trying to pass it off as a group opinion would be rather foolish on the part of anyone that attempted to do so.

Getting a stake in the club and a fans representative on the board ensures that we are safe in knowledge of just what is going on. Our fans deserve that at least.

I can't forgive them for the last 2 years, even if some seemingly have. That makes me more determined for this to work.

I dont think you will find one supporter who has forgiven them, I certainly have not come across one yet.

Even on the accounts, you're defending/trying to justify the pure cold hard facts written and signed off in black and white.

The switch from protestor to puppet is one of epic proportions!

You are of course allowed your opinion, those who know me, will know and tell you, I do not tow anyones line, quite the opposite

[rovers_rob]

Glen, you mentioned you had passed podcast 50 onto the club which I think is a good idea. It would be good to hear what the club have to say about this.

Did they say they would listen to it ?

By the way I think the flak you are getting is a bit out of order, you are entitled to your opinion and because it may differ from other people that doesn't mean you are a puppet. Why it has to get personal is beyond me.

It would also be good to get another non biased neutral opinion on the accounts. Preferably someone who has no interest in Rovers whatsoever and someone who can take the emotion out if it and analyse them for what they are.

[Kamy100]

Glen, you mentioned you had passed podcast 50 onto the club which I think is a good idea. It would be good to hear what the club have to say about this.

Did they say they would listen to it ?

By the way I think the flak you are getting is a bit out of order, you are entitled to your opinion and because it may differ from other people that doesn't mean you are a puppet. Why it has to get personal is beyond me.

It would also be good to get another non biased neutral opinion on the accounts. Preferably someone who has no interest in Rovers whatsoever and someone who can take the emotion out if it and analyse them for what they are.

Hopefully this coming weekend or next weekend we will be getting a couple of other accountants/finance people on the podcast to also give their opinions on the accounts etc.

[RoverScot]

Had another look the accounts and came up with this:

Assuming a reduction in TV Money from 41 million to around 18(16 plus Championship deal) , match day income down from 5.5 to 2.5 million and commercial activity from 7.5 million to 3.5 million - this gives an estimated total turnover this season of £24 million.

Staff Costs are £50 million, if there has been a 50% reduction in their contract, this places it roughly at £25 million BS(before Shebby). Add in around 5-6 million net onto the wage bill from Murphy, Rhodes etc. This takes the wage bill to around £30-31 million.

Other Operating expenses were £13.8 million last season but assuming being a championship club has lowered this, this figure could be say £8 million.

Therefore, an operating loss before transfers of around £14-15 million. Add in net transfer fees of £8 million with payments for Dann still being paid, this gives an estimated potential loss of £27.5 million.

[glen9mullan]

Glen, you mentioned you had passed podcast 50 onto the club which I think is a good idea. It would be good to hear what the club have to say about this.

Did they say they would listen to it ?

By the way I think the flak you are getting is a bit out of order, you are entitled to your opinion and because it may differ from other people that doesn't mean you are a puppet. Why it has to get personal is beyond me.

It would also be good to get another non biased neutral opinion on the accounts. Preferably someone who has no interest in Rovers whatsoever and someone who can take the emotion out if it and analyse them for what they are.

Yes it is going to be listened to, then hopefully some feedback will be given in addition to any previous feedback put on record by by the club.

I also agree that an impartial look at them which carries no affiliation or emotion to rovers is also the best way of them being looked at.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Had another look the accounts and came up with this:

Assuming a reduction in TV Money from 41 million to around 18(16 plus Championship deal) , match day income down from 5.5 to 2.5 million and commercial activity from 7.5 million to 3.5 million - this gives an estimated total turnover this season of £24 million.

Staff Costs are £50 million, if there has been a 50% reduction in their contract, this places it roughly at £25 million BS(before Shebby). Add in around 5-6 million net onto the wage bill from Murphy, Rhodes etc. This takes the wage bill to around £30-31 million.

Other Operating expenses were £13.8 million last season but assuming being a championship club has lowered this, this figure could be say £8 million.

Therefore, an operating loss before transfers of around £14-15 million. Add in net transfer fees of £8 million with payments for Dann still being paid, this gives an estimated potential loss of £27.5 million.

Re transfers fees - I would imagine that there are other fees on the books (other than Danns) being paid on the never never (as it is common practice) - indeed Jordan Rhodes is paid over his contract. Also - we will probably have incoming from outgoing transfers still coming in - like Jones.

[philipl]

Had another look the accounts and came up with this:

Assuming a reduction in TV Money from 41 million to around 18(16 plus Championship deal) , match day income down from 5.5 to 2.5 million and commercial activity from 7.5 million to 3.5 million - this gives an estimated total turnover this season of £24 million.

Staff Costs are £50 million, if there has been a 50% reduction in their contract, this places it roughly at £25 million BS(before Shebby). Add in around 5-6 million net onto the wage bill from Murphy, Rhodes etc. This takes the wage bill to around £30-31 million.

Other Operating expenses were £13.8 million last season but assuming being a championship club has lowered this, this figure could be say £8 million.

Therefore, an operating loss before transfers of around £14-15 million. Add in net transfer fees of £8 million with payments for Dann still being paid, this gives an estimated potential loss of £27.5 million.

Operating loss will be about £10m higher than you are estimating. The relegation clauses were 30% to 40%, not 50%, and there are some appallingly large wages being paid to this summer's signings.

The podcast has already been listened to in Pune.

[RoverScot]

Operating loss will be about £10m higher than you are estimating. The relegation clauses were 30% to 40%, not 50%, and there are some appallingly large wages being paid to this summer's signings.

The podcast has already been listened to in Pune.

Expecting personalised feedback? If the owners ever do meet BRAG, I hope the group invite you along to ask financial questions in the same way you were present in the Premier League meeting. Might help with communication and trust.

[philipl]

Yes it is going to be listened to, then hopefully some feedback will be given in addition to any previous feedback put on record by by the club.

I also agree that an impartial look at them which carries no affiliation or emotion to rovers is also the best way of them being looked at.

Any feedback through your channels yet Glen?

A neutral accountant had a look and commented: "Your football club is totally @#/?. Glad I don't have anything to do with that heap of trouble."

[Mercer]

Any feedback through your channels yet Glen?

A neutral accountant had a look and commented: "Your football club is totally @#/?. Glad I don't have anything to do with that heap of trouble."

I would question the credentials of any accountant who said otherwise !

[Rover_Shaun]

Can we not just cut the he said she said and get a registered accountant on record on a podcast?

[Mercer]

Can we not just cut the he said she said and get a registered accountant on record on a podcast?

Philipl has been on Podcast and he is a Chartered Accountant.

I know of at least one other Chartered Accountant who has passed comment on these accounts on this thread.

How many opinions do you require ?