[Archived] Centre Back Pairings Under Bowyer

[Stuart]

I was curious as to what our best CB partnership was and having a lazy Sunday morning decided to have a look. The data used went back from yesterday's games - all the way to when Scott Dann left in 2013/14 so a reasonable sample range. League games only for the purpose of points totals. Partnerships of 2 or more games (which may be set too low but hey).

Based on these matches I've calculated the following stats:

Best Partnerships

Kilgallon - Henry Played 2 Conceded 1 (0.59 per game) C/S 1 Pts 6 (Pts per game 3) Defeats 0

Kilgallon - Baptiste Played 4 Conceded 4 (1.00 per game) C/S 2 Pts 4 (Pts per game 1) Defeats 2

Kilgallon - Duffy Played 2 Conceded 2 (1.00 per game) C/S 0 Pts 4 (Pts per game 2) Defeats 0

Hanley - Duffy Played 17 Conceded 21 (1.24 per game) C/S 5 Pts 18 (Pts per game 1.06) Defeats 6

Kilgallon - Spurr Played 4 Conceded 5 (1.25 per game) C/S 2 Pts 6 (Pts per game 1.5) Defeats 0

Hanley - Kilgallon Played 25 Conceded 32 (1.28 per game) C/S 6 Pts 41 (Pts per game 1.64) Defeats 3

Hanley - Keane Played 2 Conceded 3 (1.50 per game) C/S 0 Pts 0 (Pts per game 0) Defeats 2

Lenihan - Spurr Played 2 Conceded 4 (2.00 per game) C/S 0 Pts 4 (Pts per game 2.0) Defeats 0

Hanley - Baptiste Played 4 Conceded 9 (2.25 per game) C/S 0 Pts 6 (Pts per game 1.5) Defeats 2

Kilgallon- Keane Played 3 Conceded 7 (2.33 per game) C/S 0 Pts 4 (Pts per game 1.33) Defeats 1

Best Individuals

Henry Played 3 Conceded 1 (0.33 per game) C/S 1 Pts 6 (Pts per game 3) Defeats 0

Duffy Played 19 Conceded 23 (1.21 per game) C/S 5 Pts 22 (Pts per game 1.16) Defeats 9

Spurr Played 4 Conceded 5 (1.25 per game) C/S 2 Pts 6 (Pts per game 1.5) Defeats 0

Kilgallon Played 40 Conceded 51 (1.28 per game) C/S 11 Pts 6 (Pts per game 3) Defeats 0

Hanley Played 46 Conceded 65 (1.42 per game) C/S 11 Pts 65 (1.42 per game) Defeats 13

Baptiste Played 8 Conceded 13 (1.62 per game) C/S 2 Pts 10 (Pts per game 3) Defeats 4

Keane Played 5 Conceded 10 (2.00 per game) C/S 0 Pts 4 (Pts per game 1.20) Defeats 3

Oddballs - removed from stats

Lowe - Kilgallon 0-4 Bolton (skews Kilgallon's conceded stats)

Henry - Baptiste 3-1 Charlton (improves Henry's stats further)

Baptiste - Duffy 1-0 Birmingham (one-off but improves Duffy's stats)

For me, these stats show that Kilgallon is our most consistent defender with him regularly featuring in the meanest defence stats regardless of who he partners. It also shows shows that he and Hanley are not the most effective pairing.

With Henry and Baptiste gone, Kilgallon and Duffy are the next meanest but without being given enough time to gel. This for me is because Bowyer will pick Hanley instead of Kilgallon every match, if fit. I'd like to see him give Kilgallon and Duffy more time to work together but I doubt he will.

It also shows Spurr in a reasonable light. Although not a real option, he acquitted himself well and as a defender, rather than wing back, I'd suggest he offers more than Olsson.

Also shows that Michael Keane was pretty pants really. What is it with that name?

Edit: just spotted the mistake with Henry's standing.

[T J Hooker]

I think its our entire defensive unit(goaly, back 4 and def mids) that have been a shambles in recent years largely due to the merry go round team selections of bowyer, pish poor communication, no real leadership and one dimensional tactics.

[Feniscowles Blue]

Goalies continue to change all the time. Junior football club manager trying to please everyone .

[AllRoverAsia]

You should email those stats on to Bowyer!

[Stuart]

Goalies continue to change all the time. Junior football club manager trying to please everyone .

Much how I see it. "Junior" is probably a bit harsh but development certainly.

Many of the above games - particularly those with Hanley and Kilgallon had Robbo behind them and in runs at the end of the last two seasons were missing Lowe for long spells allowing us to attack more. No less than five first choice keepers. One can only speculate about how it's affecting Steele's confidence, let alone a now third choice Eastwood. Meanwhile Raya is potentially going to be exposed behind this defence.

We either have the wrong personnel or the wrong manager. But I guess we are just going to have to wait until we burn through the next 30 players because Bowyer's here for the duration.

People won't like it but it's like a repeat of Kean, pre-Singh, including dodgy soundbites. The only difference is perception about motives but, as far as abilities, I'm struggling to see much change. I hated Kean with a passion, was overjoyed when he left. Still can't stand to look at him but even he got results in this division.

Bowyer really needs to have a re-think about his favouritism because, as Paul put it in the match thread, this felt like game number 39 of last season. Different supporting cast, same lead characters, same mistakes, same result.

[Jock]

Which ones have some resalesble value get picked.

[Stuart]

Which ones have some resalesble value get picked.

Good point. It does kind of suggest that.

Pounds not points are the benchmark for success at Ewood nowadays perhaps. It's not really going to draw the crowds though.

[Dunnfc]

Great post!

Clear as day Killa is our best centre back, no surprise our season end and cup run was with him in the team. His organisation is second to none and is the most experienced member of our squad now.

Be interesting to see the stats on our center midfield parings too.

[JBiz]

I think the stats do show something - we've had far too many different pairings in two years to really develop a culture. Stick with Hanley and Duffy for as long as possible for me. It's impossible to say Duffy and Killa look anything from 2 games - but my recollection, and the points ratio of Killa and Hanley over the most games pointing to that being the most useful last season IMO - Hanley and Duffy at the end of 2014 where calamitous, hopefully yesterday is a sign of improvement.

When Duffy signed, I thought he had the raw materials to compliment Hanleys style of defending. Hanley is very much an "Andy Todd" style centre back who looks to read balls into the strikers and whereas Duffy is the big set piece blocker, pacey and decent with his feet. It just hasn't happened for one reason or another but it's too soon to give up on a partnership that could be useful for a long time.

We all know that consistent selection breeds consistent performances!

As for the Keane stats, they show that it's not necessarily fair to rate a defensive player on just goals conceded. Coincidentally I don't simply rate strikers on goal scored, although both stats are important to respective positions.

Keane looked decent at the time for us, could play full back and also got a couple of goals. I was annoyed we couldn't get him and he ended up at Burnley. From those stats, you'd think I was making that up!

[Stuart]

Joe. Apart from being contrary/obtuse for the sake of it, how can any of those stats lead you to the conclusion that Kilgallon should be dropped indefinitely? From the information above it is a nonsense view to form.

[mustard]

I think the stats do show something - we've had far too many different pairings in two years to really develop a culture. Stick with Hanley and Duffy for as long as possible for me. It's impossible to say Duffy and Killa look anything from 2 games - but my recollection, and the points ratio of Killa and Hanley over the most games pointing to that being the most useful last season IMO - Hanley and Duffy at the end of 2014 where calamitous, hopefully yesterday is a sign of improvement.

When Duffy signed, I thought he had the raw materials to compliment Hanleys style of defending. Hanley is very much an "Andy Todd" style centre back who looks to read balls into the strikers and whereas Duffy is the big set piece blocker, pacey and decent with his feet. It just hasn't happened for one reason or another but it's too soon to give up on a partnership that could be useful for a long time.

We all know that consistent selection breeds consistent performances!

As for the Keane stats, they show that it's not necessarily fair to rate a defensive player on just goals conceded. Coincidentally I don't simply rate strikers on goal scored, although both stats are important to respective positions.

Keane looked decent at the time for us, could play full back and also got a couple of goals. I was annoyed we couldn't get him and he ended up at Burnley. From those stats, you'd think I was making that up!

Still conceded two goal at home. A sign of improvement would have been a clean sheet. Playing solid for 95% of the game but then allowing defenders to sneak in and score is no use.

Also, I feel dropping Steele assisted in costing us. Raya should have saved the second, handball or not. I can see Raya and Steele getting switched soon enough. Bowyer needs to get the right formula and then stick to his guns. I can see him doing neither.

[JBiz]

Joe. Apart from being contrary/obtuse for the sake of it, how can any of those stats lead you to the conclusion that Kilgallon should be dropped indefinitely? From the information above it is a nonsense view to form.

Why bother replying if you just want to put my opinion down as being contrary!

I think it makes sense to go with the younger two in the long run. I explained that, whilst you think that's wasting Killas wage, you've seen how many different pairings we've had due to injury in the past so he's a more than able backup.

Short term mentality in any business is daft. An example would be giving an injury prone 31 year old on a short term contract the captains armband.

Hanley may never improve as a captain but you have to give chances. Big picture, long term and my impression of both players potential? Got to be Duffy and Hanley.

Still conceded two goal at home. A sign of improvement would have been a clean sheet. Playing solid for 95% of the game but then allowing defenders to sneak in and score is no use.

Also, I feel dropping Steele assisted in costing us. Raya should have saved the second, handball or not. I can see Raya and Steele getting switched soon enough. Bowyer needs to get the right formula and then stick to his guns. I can see him doing neither.

A lucky bounce and a volleyball smash are difficult to criticise for! I think Raya should've done better but overall he looks good, his handling above his head is superb.

[mustard]

Why bother replying if you just want to put my opinion down as being contrary!

I think it makes sense to go with the younger two in the long run. I explained that, whilst you think that's wasting Killas wage, you've seen how many different pairings we've had due to injury in the past so he's a more than able backup.

Short term mentality in any business is daft. An example would be giving an injury prone 31 year old on a short term contract the captains armband.

Hanley may never improve as a captain but you have to give chances. Big picture, long term and my impression of both players potential? Got to be Duffy and Hanley.

So we should persist with a partnership that isn't working and is costing us points, just because the two players have better potential? Sounds like Bowyer's plan tbh. Best chance of resale value taking precedence over performances/results.

If this was Kean, there would be uproar, but because people have a soft spot for Bowyer he can get away with murder.

[JBiz]

One game - so change all. This is exactly the mentality that we do not need. Whilst you can moan as much as you want about development, I fail to see another way we are going to get better as a team without implementing some consistency.

Big Sam had it right, seasons where cut up into sections and he gave players chances dependent on if he felt a game was winnable or not. This league is different though, and if we are to succeed in the long run I say go with those two.

I have a soft spot for one thing in this conversation and that's Blackburn Rovers.

[Hasta]

One game - so change all. This is exactly the mentality that we do not need. Whilst you can moan as much as you want about development, I fail to see another way we are going to get better as a team without implementing some consistency.

Big Sam had it right, seasons where cut up into sections and he gave players chances dependent on if he felt a game was winnable or not. This league is different though, and if we are to succeed in the long run I say go with those two.

I have a soft spot for one thing in this conversation and that's Blackburn Rovers.

Look at the defeats in the opening post. They have played 18 times together and we have lost 7 of those games.

I'm all for consistency but we tried it last season and it didn't work. How many games do we give them now before we accept it doesn't work?

[mustard]

One game - so change all. This is exactly the mentality that we do not need. Whilst you can moan as much as you want about development, I fail to see another way we are going to get better as a team without implementing some consistency.

Big Sam had it right, seasons where cut up into sections and he gave players chances dependent on if he felt a game was winnable or not. This league is different though, and if we are to succeed in the long run I say go with those two.

I have a soft spot for one thing in this conversation and that's Blackburn Rovers.

Nope, this is based on our defence over the last couple of years under Bowyer. I think Duffy and Kilgallon would be a much sounder partnership. I don't care about resale values. I want what's best for BRFC. Bowyer needs to cut out all this @#/? about player valuations and stick to the strongest line-up where possible (what's the bet the team changes for next week?).

[chaddyrovers]

I thought the centre backs were fairly good yesterday. Up against 2 very good championship strikers. But people say they want to Bowyer to pick the same team week in week out. He has chosen Duffy/Hanley as his two centre backs. They need to play 10 games together and understand each games and their roles in the team before we judge them on stats for this season performances

Raya had no chance with the 1st one. 2nd goal was a forehand smash. If Edwards didnt touch the ball then Raya would have catch the ball comfortable.

Raya was confidence, command enough to come off his line and collect crosses.

[JBiz]

He has chosen Duffy/Hanley as his two centre backs. They need to play 10 games together and understand each games and their roles in the team before we judge them on stats for this season performances

Get that man a can of coke! I agree sir.

[mustard]

I thought the centre backs were fairly good yesterday. Up against 2 very good championship strikers. But people say they want to Bowyer to pick the same team week in week out. He has chosen Duffy/Hanley as his two centre backs. They need to play 10 games together and understand each games and their roles in the team before we judge them on stats for this season performances

Raya had no chance with the 1st one. 2nd goal was a forehand smash. If Edwards didnt touch the ball then Raya would have catch the ball comfortable.

Raya was confidence, command enough to come off his line and collect crosses.

Chaddy, I watched plenty of this CB partnership not working last season to be able to formulate my own judgement, thanks.

Forehand smash? I'll forgive you for recycling Jbizzle's volleyball references, but the ball hardly came at Raya at much pace. He fumbled what any keeper should be saving. Whilst it should never have stood, it was still a mistake that cost us a goal.

Did Raya do anything Steele couldn't (except the goal incident)? We're gonna get peddled the 'young player/young team' sh!t again this year and placing faith in a young keeper who is yet to play a full season at any competitive level has potential to cost us points. It did yesterday IMO.

[Hasta]

I thought the centre backs were fairly good yesterday. Up against 2 very good championship strikers. But people say they want to Bowyer to pick the same team week in week out. He has chosen Duffy/Hanley as his two centre backs. They need to play 10 games together and understand each games and their roles in the team before we judge them on stats for this season performances

Raya had no chance with the 1st one. 2nd goal was a forehand smash. If Edwards didnt touch the ball then Raya would have catch the ball comfortable.

Raya was confidence, command enough to come off his line and collect crosses.

They played 17 last season and didn't look good together. I didn't realise 27 games was the magic number before players start to gel.

Although not a huge error, Raya gets caught in no mans land for the first goal. He started to come out and then stopped and seemed almost off balance as the guy flicked it in.

Regardless of the hand ball, the second goal is a massive clanger.

[mustard]

Get that man a can of coke! I agree sir.

Near a quarter of the season in before we judge whether it's a good idea or not? Fair enough, but we could have forfeited a load of points by then. If it starts to work this season then I'll happily eat some humble pie, but I expect you to do the same if it doesn't, especially considering data from last season suggests those two shouldn't be starting together.

[mustard]

They played 17 last season and didn't look good together. I didn't realise 27 games was the magic number before players start to gel.

Although not a huge error, Raya gets caught in no mans land for the first goal. He started to come out and then stopped and seemed almost off balance as the guy flicked it in.

Regardless of the hand ball, the second goal is a massive clanger.

An unnecessary change too. I thought Steele looked solid towards the end of last season. No real clangers of note, he just had Hanley ahead of him for most of the season that didn't help.

I was concerned that throwing Raya in would not only cause errors but also affect the lad's confidence. He's barely had much Football League game time and I'd sooner see him loaned out or used as back-up for the next year. Kean was ruined after being poorly managed and I'm concerned Raya could go the same way. I just hope it doesn't knock him down. I think chucking him in the deep end behind an already leaky defence has more potential to ruin him than to help him develop.

Also, how must Steele be feeling right now?

[Stuart]

Why bother replying if you just want to put my opinion down as being contrary!

I think it makes sense to go with the younger two in the long run. I explained that, whilst you think that's wasting Killas wage, you've seen how many different pairings we've had due to injury in the past so he's a more than able backup.

Short term mentality in any business is daft. An example would be giving an injury prone 31 year old on a short term contract the captains armband.

Hanley may never improve as a captain but you have to give chances. Big picture, long term and my impression of both players potential? Got to be Duffy and Hanley.

You simply shouldn't put your best players on the bench. It's that simple for me. If you do then you have to win the match or expect to be criticised.

[tomphil]

Killa proved last season without a doubt he's the steadiest centre half of the lot. Also his experience helps organize the back line. He's over 30 though and has no real sell on value so he'll get left on the bench. It's ridiculous but typical of what's going on at the club and the way GB goes about things.

I suppose if Bowyer is going with these two then he has to stick with it and let them try and gel although I don't think they ever will properly. For a supposedly good side Wolves didn't put them under too much pressure, bigger tests will await starting on Saturday.

[mustard]

Killa proved last season without a doubt he's the steadiest centre half of the lot. Also his experience helps organize the back line. He's over 30 though and has no real sell on value so he'll get left on the bench. It's ridiculous but typical of what's going on at the club and the way GB goes about things.

I suppose if Bowyer is going with these two then he has to stick with it and let them try and gel although I don't think they ever will properly. For a supposedly good side Wolves didn't put them under too much pressure, bigger tests will await starting on Saturday.

They could play well for 95% of the game but there's always a mistake or two in them, and it often proves costly.