England

[chaddyrovers]

6 is defensive midfielder not a centre back. 

Source: Coaches' Voice https://share.google/idnRsiFDoMUERo130

[joey_big_nose]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Anderson has the 6 is working next to Rice is working and looks good overall partnership 

Tuchel is playing a balanced team with players playing in their correct position. No shoehorning of players to get them in. 

Looks a good overall team. 

Eze must go to.the world cup. Gives you different type of player in a couple of roles

Yeah.... Theres a conventional view that the defensive player is the deeper midfield partner, and the offensive one further forward. But often it works better the other way round. 

Tugay and Savage were like that. Tugay would drop off and pick up the ball deep and do his incredible passing. Savage would push up and closing down ahead of him to win the ball back.

[chaddyrovers]

12 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Yeah.... Theres a conventional view that the defensive player is the deeper midfield partner, and the offensive one further forward. But often it works better the other way round. 

Tugay and Savage were like that. Tugay would drop off and pick up the ball deep and do his incredible passing. Savage would push up and closing down ahead of him to win the ball back.

Think Anderson and Rice partnership works. Anderson is a clever football. Very good player and only going to get better

[roversfan99]

Anderson is a good player but I am not convinced that he is beyond good Premier League standard. 

He also doesnt play as deep for Forest so it isnt necessarily a position hes most comfortable in. Against poor to awful opposition, thats not been tested at all so far in an England shirt and hes had free reign really. Against better teams, I would wonder how he would fare. I do think that Wharton is more well suited to that role as he plays it every week.

[Upside Down]

7 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

6 is defensive midfielder not a centre back. 

Source: Coaches' Voice https://share.google/idnRsiFDoMUERo130

Wrong.

[K-Hod]

Not sure what Tuchel said about the Wembley atmosphere is worth crying about.

It's a graft to get to Wembley midweek and hard to get back via public transport, so that doesn't make for a rousing atmosphere. For me, it would be so much better playing at club grounds around the country and saving Wembley for the important matches.

[Bronzed A Donis]

8 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

6 is defensive midfielder not a centre back. 

Source: Coaches' Voice https://share.google/idnRsiFDoMUERo130

We should refer to it as a half back and go full retro.

Apart from Number 1 and number 9, until Carragher, Neville and all the other double pivot bros started using it. I had never in my life, playing or watching heard fans or fellow players use numbers to describe positions.

Adams, Baresi and Moore want their number back !

What position does number 14 play?!

Anyway England do what we always doz cruise through qualifying against teams that would struggle.innthe championship.

We've as much a chance as anyone at the world cup. Southgate nearly did it and he was a nice bloke but tactically limited. If Tuchel can avoid falling out with people beforehand there's every chance.

[roverandout]

10 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Yeah, its a total waste of time trying to judge against such dreadful opposition.

One thing I do think is that Tuchel seems happy to try and build the most balanced team, rather than the one with the best players.

England's best position is clearly number 10, with Bellingham, Foden and Palmer, and even beyond that, Eze and Rogers. All (or at least the first 4) are better than anyone we can muster up wide left. But Kane is slow and drops off, to get the best out of him we need a quick left winger who can go in behind so its either Gordon or Rashford. No sticking a Foden, a Palmer, even a Grealish there, the main thought is balance. He clearly wants 2 out and out wingers.

Same in midfield. Rice has often been wrongly used as a holding midfielder, now hes being balanced off with Anderson.

Its the right approach after decades of imbalanced teams but the question is, even if its balanced, how far can a team go with a number of players that are good but nothing special in it, complimenting the stand out players. Expectations in the past have been built on the idea of all of our stand out players on the pitch at the same time.

I do think he needs to get in one of our top class number 10s, probably Bellingham, and get Foden, Palmer and Wharton amongst it fighting for the first 11. Just not all of them playing at the same time.

Theres plenty of top class players I'm the England team.  Argentina won the World Cup without a single World class player 

[roverandout]

Wharton rice and Bellingham would be one of the best midfields at the world cup 

[K-Hod]

20 minutes ago, roverandout said:

Theres plenty of top class players I'm the England team.  Argentina won the World Cup without a single World class player 

Please stop.

[Eddie]

12 hours ago, Gav said:

Best fans in the World Tuchel. It will do you good to remember that.

 

 

Not sure on the best fans in the world stuff, but his criticism isn't of England fans in general or how well they travel. It's specific to the atmosphere at England's home stadium. It isn't great there; there are lots of reasons for that, but I understand his observations. 

[joey_big_nose]

2 hours ago, roverandout said:

Wharton rice and Bellingham would be one of the best midfields at the world cup 

Im not that convinced by Bellingham personally. As hes always played abroad Ive not seen much club football from him, but like Foden in an England shirt he doesn't really seem what we need.

Morgan has been a lot better suited. It would be refreshing if we stuck with what works rather than big names. Hopefully it would incentivise Bellingham to adapt his game too to fit in better.

[joey_big_nose]

2 hours ago, roverandout said:

Theres plenty of top class players I'm the England team.  Argentina won the World Cup without a single World class player 

Hmmm... Think thats a stretch. But Italy won euro 2020 without  standout attacking players, though they did have a brilliant keeper and defence. And obviously Greece in 2004.

Good teams are as important as individual talents imo. Sides that combine both are what you want like France 1998 or Spain 2008 to 2012.

[chaddyrovers]

11 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Anderson is a good player but I am not convinced that he is beyond good Premier League standard. 

He also doesnt play as deep for Forest so it isnt necessarily a position hes most comfortable in. Against poor to awful opposition, thats not been tested at all so far in an England shirt and hes had free reign really. Against better teams, I would wonder how he would fare. I do think that Wharton is more well suited to that role as he plays it every week.

Think his performances have shown he is level above good and given how he has performances were last season, England under 21's games this summer and his performances for England 

[chaddyrovers]

5 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Morgan has been a lot better suited. It would be refreshing if we stuck with what works rather than big names. 

Its what suits the team more than just individuals. We seen this all before we tried fitting Gerrard, Lampard, Hargreaves and Carrick into a starting 11 instead of dropping one or 2 or changing formation 

[joey_big_nose]

Id say tactically we can probably have two different forward lines depending on if Kane plays or not.

If hes on then prioritise runners like Gordon, Morgan and Rashford to get beyond him. If he's out have Watkins doing the running and have more technical players in behind like Belligham and Palmer. Its all about reducing the congestion in the number 10 position.

Seems daft to be so dependent tactically on Kane but his scoring record is ridiculous and getting better, so we need to accommodate him.

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Think his performances have shown he is level above good and given how he has performances were last season, England under 21's games this summer and his performances for England 

That isnt a constructive reply to suggestions that there are still question marks over how good he is and moreso, whether he is best suited to a role he has limited experience of playing.

Playing against recent position doesnt disprove that.

[benhben]

A couple of years ago I thought Bellingham was unbelievable. Since he went to madrid though, when ive seen him for england he seems to me to have developed a massive Ego. His performance for England has dropped from an all action all rounder to someone who only moves when they have the ball. 

I get the impression hes a difficult character to have around and the squad dont particularly get on with him.

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

Im not that convinced by Bellingham personally. As hes always played abroad Ive not seen much club football from him, but like Foden in an England shirt he doesn't really seem what we need.

Morgan has been a lot better suited. It would be refreshing if we stuck with what works rather than big names. Hopefully it would incentivise Bellingham to adapt his game too to fit in better.

I do agree to an extent on Bellingham, I have seen him both in the Champions League and for England and he is capable of scoring goals and bits of magic but it has been amidst spells of anonymity.

That being said, there has to be a way of getting one of Bellingham, Palmer or Foden in that role. Any of the 3 are better than Rogers.

[chaddyrovers]

29 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

That isnt a constructive reply to suggestions that there are still question marks over how good he is and moreso, whether he is best suited to a role he has limited experience of playing.

Well so far so good for him. He played a similar role for England during the under 21's tournament this season. 

Limited experience? 

29 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Playing against recent position doesnt disprove that.

You mean recent opponents? You can only play who we played but for me, its how he plays the 6 role and the partnership with Rice which both seem to suit each other games.

27 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

That being said, there has to be a way of getting one of Bellingham, Palmer or Foden in that role. Any of the 3 are better than Rogers.

But does it suit the team better tho? That's what matters surely? Team first? 

We tried to fit Gerrard and Lampard into the same system and it never worked out

[roversfan99]

22 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Well so far so good for him. He played a similar role for England during the under 21's tournament this season. 

Limited experience? 

You mean recent opponents? You can only play who we played but for me, its how he plays the 6 role and the partnership with Rice which both seem to suit each other games.

But does it suit the team better tho? That's what matters surely? Team first? 

We tried to fit Gerrard and Lampard into the same system and it never worked out

My point is that he doesnt really play that same role for Forest so there are question marks about his suitability in playing that holding role and how he would fare against proper opposition.

A few games against crap teams in which England werent tested doesnt answer those question marks. Neither does anything he did in under age groups, although I have probably as little idea as you as to whether he even played there.

Hes a good player, I am merely questioning how good he actually is, we have a habit of overhyping players based on a couple of games against crap teams. And also more importantly, how suited he is to that particular role.

That Gerrard and Lampard line is just a recycled one used out of context here. I am noy saying that we should stick all of Bellingham, Palmer and Foden all in and try to squeeze them in as we have in the past, I did say that we are correct to try and be more balanced.

But there has to be room for one of them in what is their natural position. Any of the 3 are a couple of levels above the likes of Rogers and if we cant get any of these in the team then something is wrong. I refuse to accept that say Bellingham playing as a number 10 ie his natural position is not good for the team.

[Eddie]

3 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

Hmmm... Think thats a stretch. But Italy won euro 2020 without  standout attacking players, though they did have a brilliant keeper and defence. And obviously Greece in 2004.

Chiesa was pretty special throughout that tournament. Injuries have set him back a lot, but in 2020/21 he was one of the best attacking midfield options in Europe. 

[joey_big_nose]

4 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

My point is that he doesnt really play that same role for Forest so there are question marks about his suitability in playing that holding role and how he would fare against proper opposition.

A few games against crap teams in which England werent tested doesnt answer those question marks. Neither does anything he did in under age groups, although I have probably as little idea as you as to whether he even played there.

Hes a good player, I am merely questioning how good he actually is, we have a habit of overhyping players based on a couple of games against crap teams. And also more importantly, how suited he is to that particular role.

That Gerrard and Lampard line is just a recycled one used out of context here. I am noy saying that we should stick all of Bellingham, Palmer and Foden all in and try to squeeze them in as we have in the past, I did say that we are correct to try and be more balanced.

But there has to be room for one of them in what is their natural position. Any of the 3 are a couple of levels above the likes of Rogers and if we cant get any of these in the team then something is wrong. I refuse to accept that say Bellingham playing as a number 10 ie his natural position is not good for the team.

I agree that Bellingham, Foden and Palmer are all better players. But we need someone who works with Kane and all those three have really struggled. Rodgers might not be as good, but jf hes making the right off the ball runs, pressing etc and therefore getting the best out of Kane then then he has to keep the shirt. 

Foden is a lost cause imo as he is just so indirect - I just cant see how he fits in at all. Palmer and Bellingham do have more to offer if they commit to giving up the number 10 space and possession of the ball to Kane and focus on running through, but they are naturally very similar to Kane wanting others to make the runs while they take a lot of touches and try to be the offensive pivot.

Anyway Tuchel has played it well, putting the onus on them to show they can adapt. Not got many England games to do that though.

Edited 2 hours ago by joey_big_nose

[roversfan99]

22 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

I agree that Bellingham, Foden and Palmer are all better players. But we need someone who works with Kane and all those three have really struggled. Rodgers might not be as good, but jf hes making the right off the ball runs, pressing etc and therefore getting the best out of Kane then then he has to keep the shirt. 

Foden is a lost cause imo as he is just so indirect - I just cant see how he fits in at all. Palmer and Bellingham do have more to offer if they commit to giving up the number 10 space and possession of the ball to Kane and focus on running through, but they are naturally very similar to Kane wanting others to make the runs while they take a lot of touches and try to be the offensive pivot.

Anyway Tuchel has played it well, putting the onus on them to show they can adapt. Not got many England games to do that though.

I dont even think Rogers was very effective yesterday, and hes been poor for Villa. I dont think he can do anything that at least some of those better players cant do. And his only good games in general this season have been for England against really poor opposition, and he hasnt been stand out. 

Of those other players, the issue has been trying to shoehorn too many similar players in at once. In the past, although hes an inferior player, we didnt have the balance of a pacy Gordon running beyond on the left or someone sat beside Rice letting him run on. Bellingham in terms of style of player I dont think is chalk and cheese with Rogers for example, just much better. With balance around him, there is no reason that he cant play in this team. At the last Euros, he ended up often playing from the left.

[M_B]

20 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

6 is defensive midfielder not a centre back. 

Source: Coaches' Voice https://share.google/idnRsiFDoMUERo130

Not in old money Chaddy.

Got to admit I always consider 5 and 6 centre halves, as was always the case.