JHRover

To be honest I'd say 14,000 home fans on for a Lancashire derby given our form and league position is pretty poor. It is only the horrendous 'normal' crowds we get that makes 14,000 seem good. I'll give you an example - Bolton played Wigan in League One a month or so ago and the crowd there was 21,000 with a similar number of away fans. The last time we went to Preston before lockdown there were 15,000 in the home ends. And remember that a good 1,000 of those were giveaways in the BBE upper. Clearly it is a step in the right direction but lets get some perspective here. It wasn't long ago we had 18-19000 season ticket holders so no I won't consider 14,000 for a derby anything other than quite poor.

So if Preston get a few walk ons they'll be at about 4,500. Add to our season ticket base of 7,000 and probably 1,000 giveaways (top tier BBE again) then there is perhaps 13,000. To hit 17,000 we'd need an extra 4,000 Rovers fans paying £30 adults. But hey, the clowns at Ewood can claim it is a 'big crowd' and 'busy day' with queues at the ticket office and running out of food and drink, blame the weather and covid and everyone can go home happy having managed such a 'risky' fixture with no trouble. Heaven help this lot if we ever got 30,000 turning up.

I don't know. I do know we are one of the most expensive season tickets in the league despite having the most empty seats and being in one of the poorest and most competitive areas with supposedly some of the richest investors. I don't care what the average is and whether we are in keeping with that or not. £30 is too expensive for any 2nd division football match.

Yep definitely panicking about a dire gate. Reap what you sow. I still find it astonishing that anyone anywhere thinks that £30 minimum for an adult to watch a second division match in Blackburn is remotely acceptable. Then again the person making the decision won't be paying will he? I wonder when Waggott last paid to go on a match? Easy making these decisions when you're on the payroll and get complimentaries everywhere you go.

Agree although many at Rovers can't wait to produce attendance stats from the 80s to help explain/justify dire attendances in 2021. As you say times have changed and if the benchmark is what was happening in the 80s then we are on a slippery slope. Football is a different game and most clubs have seen substantial increases since then even when at a similar level in the pyramid.

I think we are in dangerous territory with this match. Expectations at PNE appear to be at a low ebb yet it would be foolish to overlook their recent results including impressive wins at Bournemouth and Middlesbrough having trailed in both and also a hard fought draw v Fulham last weekend. Apparently - I haven't watched them play for a long time so can't comment as tv coverage seems reserved to West Brom, QPR and Derby this season - they are as dull as dishwater in the way they play. Some might see that as a negative but I think for sides of limited means that is the most sensible route to take in this division and is probably the reason they have kept themselves clear of trouble and ground out some decent results. You can be horrendous to watch but don't concede silly goals and hang on in there and you'll have a chance. I'll be going for a 1-1 draw here. They always seem to raise their game against us and I think it is too much to ask for us to win again now that we have got into a good position. The fixtures coming up over December are very attractive ones (Bournemouth aside) and a real opportunity to establish ourselves as a top 6 side going into the second half of the season. We have tended to struggle in these sort of golden opportunity games but I do have confidence in our home form which has been good this season.

A quick look at the behaviour and CV of Waggott's predecessor Paul Senior and there are similarities. Another one who turned up here out of the blue with an odd background in football, suddenly installed as the top dog at Rovers, welcomed by many as a much needed communication link to the fans, turning up for fans forum meetings and doing the rounds at Ewood on matchday telling people what they want to hear. All very cosy, approachable, nice guy, always happy to answer questions and entertain people, make them think things were happening. But in the end he came and went, god knows how much he was on for his 6 month stint and next to nothing of any significance happened. Next news he is advising on education in Scotland. How he landed that one who knows but another one where talking the talk gets you where you need to be. These people move around the country doing a couple of years here and there taking home massive salaries. A core part of their job is keeping everyone happy and being seen on the ground. Maybe that is what Venkys like - a figurehead who will deal with the supporters and keep them quiet. It is one of their skills to keep the various 'components' to the organisation happy. It is quite clear with Waggott that he likes to talk the talk then when the bad patch arrives he disappears for a month until the dust settles and then back out again. Despite all the talk a quick look at what has actually happened on his watch makes for poor reading. Consistent decline in attendances at least in part to his pricing - yet excused due to Covid Talk about a new Riverside - never gone anywhere Talk about a new pitch - never went anywhere Talk about a new super duper training ground - never went anywhere Talk about new signings at Brockhall with their suitcases ready to sign - never went anywhere Talk about senior players signing new contracts - never went anywhere There's a theme appearing here - things he talks about, promises, says are going to happen don't do. Meanwhile 4 years on the payroll and we've lost £80 million in that time, no longer own Brockhall, have failed FFP and are facing a mass exodus in the summer with precious few assets on the books.

How do you know they have? Genuinely - if you have an inside track to the players themselves, their friends, family or agents who have told you they have been offered improved terms then I'll bow to that knowledge. I can't promise they haven't. I can offer my opinion which is given the information I have available I have strong doubts as to the validity of these offers or at least their suitability given none have been accepted. As far as I can see the only people to comment on this are Mowbray and Waggott, and I've explained many times why it is in their interests for people to believe they have done all they can, even if they haven't. We all know how it is most likely to pan out with valuable assets walking for little/nothing, then another cycle of loans come in and another 6 months of whinging about low revenues and FFP constraints kicks in without any admission that the way of avoiding these issues is ensuring you have a squad of contracted players with value in the tank.

Course not. We have all summer, fail to sign anyone and it isn't Rovers fault. Nothing never is? Failing to comply with FFP - not our fault. Failing to keep key players under contract - not our fault. Failing to recruit properly - not our fault. Wish there would be some accountability and responsibility at times around here. And if we aren't sure of doing things the CEO shouldn't be telling supporters we are or shouldn't be appearing in the local media saying things are going to happen.

I can't think of anything lower down my list of priorities than spending my free time with the likes of him tbh. I also wouldn't believe a word he came out with so would be a waste of my time.

Oh. So why did the club say they were in discussions with him about a new deal? I don't know or care whether it was Maja or Messi. Matters not one jot if he doesn't join.

Well actually we could have it both ways. Cut prices, sell far more, bring in the same cash. If the club had marketed the Preston game properly - £20 a head and got tickets on sale weeks ago with big promotion behind it then there would have been 20,000 or even 25,000 on Ewood. Many on the food, drink and merchandise. Instead, due to short sightedness, it is looking like 15,000 on if we are lucky, crap atmosphere. Meanwhile only this morning the club has released a statement on the website encouraging people to buy their replica kits quickly because they have nearly all run out and there are no large sizes left in stock. It doesn't appear as though there is any plan on getting further stock in. Maybe if we had increased stock levels we would have some to sell over Xmas and bring in some extra money?

I have as much evidence as you do. You believe Waggott, I don't. That's the only difference. It isn't a conspiracy. I think he is a liar and cannot be trusted and think there is plenty of reason for that. You want to accept everything he says as the accurate reality and convince yourself that this is the truth. I have zero interest in the wage budget and what is needed to 'manage it'. That is irrelevant to the point I was making which is to cast doubt on whether these players have actually been made improved offers worthy of consideration, as you have repeatedly claimed. What evidence do I have? Very little. What evidence do you have other than what Waggott has told the Telegraph? What I do know is that in the summer we supposedly made efforts to keep Bell and Bennett who both decided to move on elsewhere, that we supposedly made efforts to tie Armstrong down to a new deal who decided to go elsewhere and that supposedly now for at least the last 12 months we have been making efforts to secure the futures of Rothwell, Nyambe, Lenihan, Brereton and yet despite that time and claims of improved offers not one of those players has signed up. Now you might expect at least 1 of those various players to have accepted 'improved' terms and yet none of them have. Not one. What does that tell you? It tells me that either offers haven't been made for them to accept or alternatively that the offers are so poor that all those players would sooner go elsewhere. Someone like Lenihan isn't getting a PL move. He's staying in the Championship. Having graduated from our academy, been here all his career and established himself as captain and effectively guaranteed his place in the team you might expect him to fancy sticking around. Yet despite an 'improved' offer he'd rather head off to some other 2nd division club? Not sure I'm buying that. Of course Waggott as the CEO keen to protect himself, the manager and Venkys is going to attempt to divert blame away from those at the club and towards those players. That is just common sense. He is hardly going to hold his hands up and admit that no offers have been made, that the club has botched the process or that the offers made are poor ones. He'd probably be sacked if he admitted that. I don't think anyone is suggesting 'overpaying' for players. All the information I have heard is that Nyambe is on quite a low wage by the club and Championship standards. It isn't very long ago that you were trying to justify giving Ben Gladwin a 6 month deal to use our training facilities to get fit so I don't think it is unreasonable for a player like Nyambe to expect a substantial pay increase. Rothwell is another who was signed from Oxford, probably on small Championship wages, and has grown in importance When we look at the frivolity of this management team over the last 3 years then relatively low earners like Nyambe and Rothwell have every right to expect a substantial increase. I don't understand why I need to meet Waggott to be able to have a view on him. He lied last year about compensating supporters out of pocket, and went one better by increasing prices by 20%. He was in the Red Rose suite earlier this season telling people Lenihan would be signing in days and that we had a striker lined up from abroad. None of those things happened. I never met Steve Kean either. What does that prove?

Why do you take him at his word?

What evidence do you have that improved offers have been made? The word of Waggott? How do you know there is nothing more the club can do? Even if offers have been made, how do you know that they are the limit of the club's capabilities? I think it is just as likely that: a) No improved offers have been made b) If they have there is more the club can do to get those over the line c) Looking at the numbers who are out of contract and have failed to sign new terms it is clear there is a serious issue with securing players to new deals which suggests there is a lot more at play than greedy players asking for too much money d) I look forward to them joining Championship rivals and then you'll have to invent more reasons why we couldn't keep them when it becomes obvious that their demands aren't excessive or unreasonable.

Get through December without a horror run of results and we will see what Venkys are made of in January. We've always been told that money is no object and that if we are in a healthy position in January they will back the club to make additional signings to try and get us to the promised land. Lets see if that actually materialises because I won't be holding my breath. Noticeable already how all the talk is of potentially having to sell Brereton, Lenihan, Nyambe and Rothwell, four of our most experienced and important players. Utter madness to even contemplate selling any important player given the position we are in unless there is a clear plan of investment and new players lined up to come in immediately afterwards. Of course given Brereton's rapid rise this season there may be interest from bigger fish that we struggle to resist which is understandable but again - he goes once there is reinvestment and replacement lined up. I won't be impressed if we get the usual deadline day player at Brockhall who doesn't sign nonsense.

I genuinely think that the people down there would rather have 15,000 on than 25,000 if the bank balance at the end of the day was the same. E.g. they'd rather sell substantially less at a high price and have half the ground empty than they would fill the ground with much cheaper tickets and still be in the same position financially afterwards. That's of course assuming takings from the extra thousands on things like food, drink and merchandise didn't add to the pot substantially, but even the non-financial advantages - a full ground, much better atmosphere, home advantage and growing new support - seem lost on this lot. I find myself hoping we get a draw against United or Liverpool in the FA Cup. Not because I want to play them but because I'd be fascinated to see how the club dealt with it. They think 15,000 v Preston is a busy day at the office so imagine getting 30,000 on with all the media and corporates. Waggott would be loving it financially but I think the operation would be completely shown up as inadequate and incapable of hosting such events.

Some of us were concerned when ludicrous and unnecessary contracts were dished out, like to Ben Gladwin so he could use Brockhall. We were told that it was the right thing to do and that it wouldn't cost the club much or cause any issues. Same thing happened in the summer of 2020 when Mowbray and Waggott decided they were going to give month long extensions to 7 players, hardly any of which were used as we drifted to a mid table finish and they were all then released. Point is of course that straight away there is hundreds of thousands of pounds wasted, for no recognisable return, when the club could easily have let those players go and the loss to the club would have been insignificant. If we hadn't bothered with the Gladwin one and saved £5000 a week for 6 months we would have an extra £120,000. That's £2500 a week extra for Nyambe for a year straight away. But no, we can't afford to meet his demands and instead will lose him for nothing along with a big cash windfall were we to sell him under contract.

Their agents have confirmed that improved offers have been made? Where was that then? I'm not aware of any agent that has commented on the status of his client's contract negotiations and would be very surprised if any of them did as they wouldn't get many clients So we are back to relying on what Waggott and Mowbray have said in their press conferences. If you want to believe what they say good luck but I won't be.

All not well behind the scenes at Sheff Utd. Only earlier this week there were reports that their Saudi owner was trying to sell up or bring in more investment. It was a strange situation when Wilder left. Jokanovic seemed like a solid appointment for a club looking to bounce back but it hasn't really got going. Presumably he was looking for serious backing in January to rebuild their squad and it wasn't forthcoming. Handing the job to Heckingbottom just sounds like they want a coach in place who will do as he is told and not complain whilst perhaps promoting some academy lads through. All sounds lovely but will ensure they don't get promoted any time soon and with Heckingbottom's track record I wouldn't be confident of staying in the Championship long.

I'm afraid that is just not acceptable. 1) Have offers been made? Who says? Mowbray and Waggott? Well of course they are going to say that. They are hardly going to tell supporters that the club has done nothing. 2) Even if offers have been made and they represent improvements on existing terms, of course if those improvements are so derisory or insignificant then yes the club and those running it can be blamed. Like making an improved offer to buy a car by upping the bid by £5. An improvement but ridiculous and not worthy of consideration. That is the buyers fault, not the seller, in this case the club, not the player. 3) Mowbray and Waggott can be blamed because under their management over the last 3 years they have squandered vast sums of money on needless contracts and signings. So if the club is now struggling to find the money to pay these lads more to keep them there has to be consideration of why that is the case and the chronic waste of funds overseen by this manager and his pal upstairs. 4) As I keep on coming back to this point - none of the players out of contract supposedly offered improved terms have taken up the clubs offer. Not a single one. Have a think about the number of contracts expiring soon or that expired last summer. Not one of them decided to accept the clubs 'offers' and 'improved terms'. I think that tells us all we need to know about the quality of those offers, if they even exist at all, which I am doubtful of.

I wonder with Grayson whether he is struggling without his mates of Snodin and Miller in the dugout. At Blackpool (first spell), Leeds, Huddersfield and Preston Snodin was his assistant but in his last 3 jobs he hasn't been. Sometimes managers rely heavily on assistants that do certain jobs very well for them or understand what it is the manager is looking for and when that partnership ends things aren't quite the same afterwards. It was similar with Clough and Taylor - after Taylor went his own way Clough never hit previous heights. Wenger and Pat Rice - when Rice retired they fell away from contention. O'Neill with John Robertson - after Villa Robertson retired and O'Neill didn't reach previous levels. Even Mourinho with Rui Faria who left him at United and since then Mourinho hasn't won anything. I'd have had Grayson here a few years ago including when we went into League One but after his last few spells he seems to have lost his mojo.

I don't remember any serious interest or reports of it in Celina. Freeman was similar to Brereton - it suddenly came about a couple of weeks before the window slammed shut and raised eyebrows because it seemed completely bizarre that we suddenly had the cash at our disposal to go and sign QPRs star player. QPR weren't playing ball though and rejected the approach, which led directly to us moving for Brereton instead. If we had that cash to spend and had targeted Brereton earlier he would have been signed earlier that summer. Instead we had to get him on loan with an agreement to buy in January because we were so late with it - certainly doesn't suggest there was much of a plan. I think that one of the Venkys decided to chuck some of their own cash into the transfer pot - no doubt in a phase of interest and excitement following promotion - and it was a case of spend it now or risk it not being there in January. You mention the other players brought in that summer - you are correct there were plenty of signings - but none of them major cash buys which is why suddenly throwing money around on Brereton in the final week of the window seemed so odd and inconsistent. Prior to the Brereton deal and Freeman bid there had been Jack Rodwell and Joe Rothwell (free), Armstrong (£1.5 million), Palmer & Reed on loan and Davenport for a small fee. So 2 loans, 2 free agents, Davenport for a couple of hundred grand and then Mowbray's project Armstrong for a reaonable but not massive fee. Then all of a sudden £7 million goes out on a teenage striker in the last days of the window? Very strange.

I agree. The cash we spent on Brereton I don't believe was available to Mowbray from the start of the summer window and had strings attached - it could only be spent on a certain category of player. I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that the money could have been split into 2-3 decent sums invested into 2-3 different positions, because if it could Mowbray woud have done that instead. It has too many similarities to the Rhodes deal - last minute, sudden, unexpected splash of the cash to such an amount the selling club couldn't say no. I suspect it was a bonus that Mowbray felt forced to use due to pressure from upstairs and also the risk that it wouldn't be there in future windows if he didn't spend it there and then. This is life in Venky world.

My prediction for the January window: - Intense planning and John Park working every hour of the day to line up good players - There's a budget if the right people come available butt we won't spend for the fun of it - Claims that if players are sold those proceeds will be reinvested and they will be replaced - At least one of Rothwell, Nyambe or Brereton sold. - No money spent on replacements. - Shuffle the deck on loans with Poveda going back and similar coming in the other way - Player(s) at Brockhall on deadline day with his suitcases ready to sign but for various reasons doesn't but conveniently that players name gets leaked to the local media and therefore satisfies supporters that efforts were being made yet unsuccessfully.