M_B

I think high heaven is a bit high for a last 8 finish don't you ? I'll judge Tuchel the same as I did Southgate, hope he surpasses Southgate's really good record and judge him on results, I won't be using luck to argue away how he does, either way.

They weren't draws, the draw was made before the tournament started, later fixtures were determined by football results,any supposed luck ended with the original draw.

Did Southgate have bad luck having to play the teams he lost to, or did the luck only stretch to having good luck playing the teams he beat?

As far as I'm concerned, we've done well at each tournament under Southgate, but just fallen short. The whole luck thing falls apart when the exact same "logic" (I use the term loosely) is applied to losing as well as winning.

Yeah well, were we unlucky to have played Italy, rather than a team we would have beaten ?

England could have beaten a different team in the euro final, Italys route had nothing to do with England, so were England unlucky to have played Italy?

I don't think anyone would argue with that, in fact you've summed up the difference nicely. They were drawn out of a bag every round except the final. Major finals groups are drawn beforehand, from there the route to the final is determined by results, nothing to do with luck whatsoever

That's it, grown adults putting everything down to Mumbo Jumbo rather than just say he did a good job.

So every fixture of the world Cup finals is either lucky or unlucky to at least one other team?

It's why I keep renewing, when they do go there'll be 50000 banging the doors down and I don't want to miss out on a seat.

England are in the World Cup final and play either Argentina or Croatia in the final. Is it luck which determines who they play ?

I'm not missing the point, I'm arguing the point. You get your wall chart and the route to the final Is mapped out. The fixtures are then determined by results, nothing whatsoever to do with luck. If you get an "easy " game or a hard one, it's as a result of how each team performed. Luck would be drawing an "easy" game out of a bag every round.

It isn't luck, it's a result of winning or losing games. Would it have been bad luck for England if we'd messed up like France did, and we'd ended up on the other side of the draw?

Going back to the last Euros, the draw actually gave us the hardest route to the final, we were scheduled to meet favourites France in the semis. Some saw it as luck that we avoided them, I saw it as France messing up.

Luck plays a part in the original draw, after that the path is mapped out and it's results which determine who you play.

By the same token, Rovers weren't playing against the best players and managers in the world. If reaching the quarter and semi of the world Cup and both European finals open to him, making him our 2nd best ever manager, whilst overseeing the whole system from first team down isn't a successful period, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I love winning things, although being born in 65 I can't remember any wins with England,the closest I've been is obviously under Southgate. Thanks to him, the England set up is ready to compete to actually win a trophy, we now almost expect to get to the very latter stages/finals of competitions. It's set up for Tuchel to succeed. If your only yardstick is winning things, you must have an extremely dim view of virtually every Rovers manager in history.

That's some act to follow.

Important not to write Gestede off either, let's see what he's got. Main thing for me is that he and Ismael are on the same page regarding transfers. We can't afford another head coach throwing his toys out the pram over recruitment.

We were on an upward trajectory, we're regularly reaching the latter stages in competitions, it's now expected. I know coaches can't go on forever, but the transformation he's overseen since he came in a credit to him. I heard a former player on 5 live this morning, he said that the England shirt is weighing heavy for players, it's something we haven't seen for years. We don't want to be going backwards.

He'd have reached the final this time, that's the standard Tuchel has inherited. I just hope he doesn't ruin all Southgate's brilliant work throughout the whole set up.

He should have signed for Preston, he'd have been the new KDB.

You've got to feel for Tuchel, knowing only a final appearance will do is a daunting task.

Just to throw another grenade in, at a family funeral in St Helens I got told he lives there. Not a million from Ormskirk to be fair.

I know, he should have gone out early like everyone else.