roversfan99

That Bolton example is one of a club doing all it can to increase attendances at a point of high potential interest. Contrast that to Waggott bumping up season ticket prices when fans are more likely to engage following our promotion.

For a start, you presumably bought an individual ticket at Chorley, obviously a season ticket comes with an economy of scale in buying 23 tickets in bulk. That said, they are very high prices for that standard at Chorley. My main issue that I highlighted was suggesting that our match tickets are "dirt cheap." I dont believe they are. 22-29 + 3 surcharge (depends on circumstance whether its "avoidable") you can argue whether its value for money, compare it to other teams etc but I think "dirt cheap" is a very difficult description to justify I said before about season tickets that my issue is not that we must reduce the prices. Its that the club cannot do anything to increase attendances, which is wrong. It always can. If they reduced prices, numbers would go up, whether overall turnover would go up or down, in terms of increased numbers v decreased prices, we can only speculate. They froze season tickets this season but increased them last season after the momentum of promotion which was a big mistake IMO at a point of potential increase, Waggott thought short term. Our season ticket prices used to be famously low compared to league rivals, nowadays they are much more in line. So the last sentence you put implying that they are already really low is not particularly accurate. We seem to have missed sales targets two years running if im not mistaken so something seems amiss.

Is there goals in that team as I am not seeing them.

Walton Bennett Lenihan Williams Cunningham Travis Johnson Rothwell Dack Downing Graham Subs: Leutwiler, Chapman, Armstrong, Gallagher, Evans, Nyambe, Adarabioyo Gone for Bennett because although I think Nyambe is a better right back, he was good last week and deserves to keep his place. Ideally would have had Rothwell left and Downing alongside Travis, but ultimately Armstrong deserves to be dropped. Was tempted to suggest Chapman right, Rothwell left.

@JoeHarvey so you consider £22-29 for a ticket at home to Luton, upped to £25-32 if you can only decide on matchday whether to go, as "dirt cheap?" Season tickets are no longer at bargain prices either, so they could do more to get more bums on seats, but ultimately it seems Waggott and co seem more focused on milking the existing fan base. Presumably he sees there being more to gain by doing that.

Who? Very vague.

My point all along is that people are implying that every single person who considers themself a supporter of the club, whether it be diehard season ticket holders or casual fans, have some sort of obligation to attend, and need to make "excuses" up if they cant. It makes absolutely no sense. I have a season ticket, I prioritise attending, but I at least have the empathy to realise that others dont see at as much of a priority. I am not saying that I know how to get attendances up, its just this bizarre attitude of blaming people for not having the same level of committment. Its a strange and an ultimately not at all constructive mindset to adopt. If people feel bitter that other fans who quite obviously dont see the club as important as they do arent attending as much as them, then to be honest I think you need a word with yourself. The main thing that the club controls in terms of off the field is price. I am not even necessarily saying that they should reduce the prices. But its a lot of money to spend for someone who doesnt consider it one of their top priorities. No one can say with any certainty whether a drop in price would cause a rise in numbers enough to still get that same level of turnover overall, whilst having more bums on seats. We dont know how variable the prices are. Likewise, walk on tickets are IMO expensive and add the surcharge and its a dear do to decide on the day "I fancy going to the match today." Of course promotion, higher quality football etc would increase attendances but it would at any club. Feeling bitter or annoyed about that fact is a waste of energy.

Thats the same though for some fans at every club. Having an attitude of suggesting he is in the wrong for it achieves nothing. Accepting some fans dont feel obliged and thinking what ways the club can do to get people back is a more constructive response. Attending matches is not an obligation.

Im saying we cant do it half arsed, every now and again. Mowbray gave it 60 minutes and changed it. Its a formation that requires consistency and regularity. I wouldnt use that formation but if we do it should be every week.

Ultimately if you want to play it out from the back in a back 3, you have to take chances at times. Walton on numerous occasions chose under little pressure to kick the ball long. Lenihan from the kick off again played it long. You say give it a chance but my main point is that we need to be more consistent with our formations. The irony is that it is Mowbray that is not giving the formation a chance by repeatedly changing it. He gave it 45 minutes, altered the formation, then another 15 minutes and abandonded the formation totally. I have my reservations about a back 3 with our personnel and have explained why. But my main issue is not with playing a certain formation, it is with repeated changing of formations leading to a lack of understanding and an inability for players to understand their roles and get used to playing in them within the system in question because it is forever changing. Playing 3 at the back is perhaps a more complicated system than most. Sheffield United are a good example because they play it week in week out and they all know exactly what their roles are. It has different demands on players, especially the outside centre backs and the wing backs. It would also require a bit of time figuring out the best way to use the attackers in front as Saturdays effort didnt work in that sense.

Do you genuinely know any fans who arent attending because we still have Smallwood, even though hes not played a minute in the League? I find that hard to believe. My point is that you are viewing attending as a responsibility of everyone. There is absolutely no use viewing it like that. All the hard core are already attending. If the club takes an attitude similar to you as if it is solely the responsibility of people who clearly arent that bothered about attending, as if their own choices, mainly cost but also other more minor issues dont matter, then ultimately the club will continue to miss targets. In my opinion, such a stance just totally lacks empathy and acceptance that many potential supporters/customers are not as committed/interested/desperate to attend. Theres no use expecting them to. The clubs mindset should be 100% how can we get more supporters. If closing stands drives fans away, dont berate them for it, dont close the stands. If fans arent willing or able to pay the prices, and I include surcharges in that bracket, then reduce them, or accept that attendances wont go up. In fact, to tell people to "get over the issue" and then reference price is an incredibly ignorant thing to suggest.

"Swallow their pride" suggests that loads of fans are not attending and cutting off their nose to spite their faces. The fans who arent already attending arent that arsed about going and will need enticing therefore your statement is absolutely meaningless.

Its about playing a way where everyone knows their role, and generating the consistency with a familiar formation. Sheffield United are the perfect example, played it week in week out and now theyve mastered it and everyone knows their job. No regular positional and formation changes. I have my doubts over 3 at tbe back for a few reasons: - Not convinced that Williams and in particular Lenihan are good enough on the ball, notice how Walton often waved them away preferring to hoof it to a small striker rather than pass to them. - There is no strength in depth at centre back, one injury and we have to change system. Nyambe isnt a centre back and the kids arent anywhere near ready. - I dont think it suits our attacking players, certainly not in its current guise. On Saturday bar a wonder goal we offered nothing going forward first half. And a goalscoring striker?

I would like to think that Holtby is more than "strength in depth" he is a step up in quality youd think on what we already have. We need to find a way of playing that works that we can play consistently. At the moment I feel like Mowbray is still trying to stumble across the correct formula, I dont think its a good idea to keep changing formation long term. For example, playing 3 at the back is a formation that requires everyone to know what they are doing, look at Sheffield United, they play it week in week out. Im not a fan of the "split striker" thing either. Theres not much competition! Weve definitely improved the squad/team, especially assuming Holtby signs. Mainly in the midfield area as well as a huge upgrade at LB. The problem is we are 15m down in attack yet no closer to finding a cutting edge and thats a worry that could let us down. And is the reason we cannot consider letting Graham go.

I don't think it is strange in that his quality and calibre I suspect is a level up on what we already have. The key question is how he fits in, because Dack is an obvious pick, and surely a player like Holtby will not be coming in to be sub. He played as a 10 for Spurs but is from reports equally adept playing further back. If he was to play in central midfield, then obviously Travis or Johnson would need to drop out, which is obviously a big call. I think Travis has to play, but I think Mowbray would be more likely to pick Johnson, that said I am not sure how comfortable he would be with playing 2 left footed players together. I suspect it is more likely that we will see Holtby crow-barred in out wide, ala Reed. It is important that we keep at least one player with pace out wide, ie Joe Rothwell. I definitely think with Holtby, Johnson and Downing to add to the mix, with Dack, Rothwell and Travis already here, our midfield looks far better than it does last year. If only we had the same quality up front!

Whilst I am unconvinced by 5 at the back. And I dont think Williams and Lenihan are good enough on the ball. (not sure Walton thought so either hence him ushering them away a few times to hoof one to Armstrong) But the main problem was the 5 in front, there was not enough cutting edge. When the wing backs were wide, there was never anyone in the box. There is no need for Johnson, Buckley, Downing AND Dack. Or in your example replace 2 for 2 other one paced central players. Need maybe an extra forward.

Obviously you have far more knowledge of his under 23 games as I dont attend, but he regularly scores and assists so must be doing something right?

The balance of that team doesnt seem right. It is too similar to the team in the first half on Saturday which was imbalanced and didnt carry any real threat aside from a screamer. We wouldnt score enough goals with that team.

Holtby has excellent pedigree and I remember him being very technically good at Spurs, would be a very good signing.

Im sure you are aware that I meant losing the first 2 games.

Theyve invited Pete in for a meeting which suggests that they are happy to listen to any ideas to increase attendances. Theyve then chosen not to implement any of Petes ideas, which is their prerogative, or in fact do anything at all, with the result being sales again below target. The onus is not with Pete to chase it up again!

Youve taken the debate away from me suggesting that Armstrong has had more than his fair share of chances, and hasnt performed effectively enough to warrant more before giving Chapman or more obviously Rothwell starts especially on the back of his form last season. I never said that they should be the finished article but I still am fully entitled to praise or criticise their performances in terms of continued selection. You are so insistent on making people seem like a pack of moaners that you miss evidence that goes against this. This is why your posts often seem to have an element of wind up in them. I praised the performances yesterday of Walton, the back 3, Dack, Downing, the wing backs and Rothwell. In the debate, you have been far more critical of Rothwell than me, as i have been over Armstrong with more evidence IMO. Its funny how different people see different things. I try and be balanced, I am very happy with our improved defensive performances, whereas I am worried at our lack of attacking threat despite spending a decent sum. Whereas you are either positive or understanding of why Mowbray has done something even if it hasnt worked, and keen to justify it.

Gallagher in our team leads to us playing a long ball style! When Mowbray wanted to play it out from the back, he dropped Gallagher for the first time. His style involved trying to repeatedly win headers. I do have my doubts that you watched him regularly enough at Birmingham to make such a judgement, but lets not make out that playing Gallagher is at odds with playing direct football. And now onto this myth that Rothwell "hasnt impressed much from the start." Its total bollocks. He started 8 of the last 9 games last season, including the last 7, and was very impressive STARTING games. If anything, you could argue that he struggled before this run of games to really stamp his authority playing little cameos at the end of games prior. He clearly impressed you because you predicted that he would be our player of the season this season. He was one of the real exciting points as we ended the season and looked towards this. His reward? 1 start out of 7 at the start of this season. Baring in mind that Rothwell hasnt impressed you much from the start, and baring in mind he was a unanimous success in his run of starts last season, and yourself was amongst those praising him, it is the sole appearance of the Fulham game where you have now altered your mindset to suggest that he doesnt impress you from the start? You are just using myths and fiction to do anything in your power to justify that every single action and decision that Mowbray does is the correct one. In terms of favouritism, Armstrong was pretty poor last season, he had one superb month but very few good games and very little in the way of goal contribution last season. Talent/attributes to work with, but not putting them together successfully often enough. In his last 13 starts and only 3 sub appearances last season, he contributed one goal against Bolton and no assists in the League. Add this season in, and its consecutively, 18 starts and 5 sub appearances, 1 goal, no assists. Rothwell ended the season far better, so is it fair that Rothwell is given only one start and is having to make do with small cameos, when Armstrong is given chance after chance with nothing back? And is it really that risky to give Chapman even one or two chances, even cameos, when Armstrong is regularly starting games, without scoring or assisting, and as shown against West Brom, slacking off defensively? Who would you rather bring on if we needed a goal from the bench, Chapman or Buckley?

The "problem" I have with Gallagher is that I don't particularly rate him. I am also not convinced that Mowbray has yet figured out how to get the best out of him; he played as a wide forward predominantly in a 5-4-1 towards the end of Mowbrays last spell, and was far less productive than he had been under Coyle. (Before anyone tries to, I am not comparing Coyle to Mowbray favourably in general) I also dont like your assertion that he has been "written off" because it would not make any sense for me to put my preconceived ideas ahead of judging a player fairly. I don't particularly rate Bennett and dont think he is a top 6 Championship standard right back by any means, but I praised him after all 3 of the recent home games for very assured performances. Back to Gallagher, as mainly a striker his goal record I think was just shy of one in four, so not too bad but not that good either. He then went on to have an even less productive loan spell at Birmingham and a year of not playing at all. I dont feel so far that hes offered a goal threat at all to our team. Hes quite ungainly and clumsy so I am not convinced he fits this supposed technical team Mowbray wants us to become, he is quite a powerful runner without being Rothwell/Armstrong like in terms of being rapid, he also should do slightly better in the air for me considering his obvious strength there. In terms of Rothwell, I understand and appreciate that his run of games came in games that were less important, but it doesnt change the fact that he was excellent and it was harsh to then drop him back out at the start of this season. Armstrong has started 5 League games, Rothwell only one, and has played less than half the number of minutes that Armstrong has had so your statement is incorrect. I appreciate the use of an impact sub, I am just not convinced that Rothwell in particular is best suited to that role. His performance level was very good when he did start regularly, and as I have said I felt it was unfair for him to be dropped back out this season. He should be put back into the team IMO, Armstrong hasnt contributed much at all over a lengthy period of time, so for me Rothwell should be given the chance to resume where he left off last season, with Armstrong not really doing much. Chapman also should certainly be in the squad, even if it is as an impact sub, he has made an impact for the U23s but it just seems a strange signing considering how he never makes a matchday 18. May I ask, if you repeatedly feel the need to insist that you will always side with the opinions of professional managers over your average fan, and are reluctant to state contradictory opinions, of course such a stance is fair enough but what do you get from coming onto a platform such as this? Which is a place for fans to air their views, opinions and suggestions on what they would do.

Exactly, making the initial post I was quoted about our fans giving Armstrong "shit" to be totally ridiculous. If hes not performing, by all means put it over the messageboard saying as such, as long as you support him in the ground, which people do.